WEBVTT NOTE Machine transcript of the film's sound; not yet checked. 1 00:00:12.740 --> 00:00:16.060 What you're about to see and hear is quite a story. 2 00:00:16.220 --> 00:00:18.720 You may have heard it, or at least heard about it. 3 00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:24.160 The story has been going on for a long time and may touch all of society. 4 00:00:24.920 --> 00:00:30.000 The major television networks, as well as local stations across the country, have 5 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:32.140 aired interviews and features about it. 6 00:00:32.760 --> 00:00:37.560 Newspapers have headlined it with front- page coverage and in-depth follow-up articles. 7 00:00:38.080 --> 00:00:41.860 In other words, the story has been anything but invisible. 8 00:00:41.860 --> 00:00:47.600 As you'll see in videotaped reports from WNEV Boston, Cable News 9 00:00:47.600 --> 00:00:50.400 Network, and the ABC Television Network. 10 00:00:50.760 --> 00:00:56.100 Yet, with all of this coverage, you must ask yourself, did you hear all the story? 11 00:00:56.260 --> 00:01:00.760 Not just part of it. Not just one side, but all of it. 12 00:01:01.000 --> 00:01:04.400 You need both sides to completely make up your mind. 13 00:01:04.800 --> 00:01:07.780 The story? It's an issue, really. 14 00:01:07.780 --> 00:01:11.100 simply put it's asbestos wide 15 00:01:24.540 --> 00:01:27.700 agreement that asbestos is a valuable useful 16 00:01:27.700 --> 00:01:33.700 mineral yet it has the potential for causing serious health effects both are 17 00:01:33.700 --> 00:01:39.980 facts the unique properties of asbestos make it irreplaceable in many products 18 00:01:39.980 --> 00:01:46.300 and as a fire retardant it has saved many lives but if the microscopic fibers 19 00:01:46.300 --> 00:01:51.460 are inhaled in excessive amounts it increases one's risk of asbestos related 20 00:01:51.460 --> 00:01:57.340 disease while this sounds fairly simple the entire asbestos issue 21 00:01:57.340 --> 00:01:58.340 is actually 22 00:01:58.180 --> 00:02:03.600 very complex since it involves unexpected health problems it is a 23 00:02:03.600 --> 00:02:09.840 highly emotional issue everyone it seems is looking for someone to blame and 24 00:02:09.840 --> 00:02:14.900 Manville Corporation as the largest producer of asbestos and asbestos 25 00:02:14.900 --> 00:02:18.140 products has been the object of much of this criticism. 26 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:21.520 Because of the so-called cover-up 27 00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:27.000 charges repeatedly made against Manville, we're going to look at both sides of the issue, 28 00:02:27.820 --> 00:02:32.380 examining the allegations being made, then listening to the facts in perspective. 29 00:02:33.880 --> 00:02:39.700 The basic charge made against Manville is that asbestos has been a known health 30 00:02:39.700 --> 00:02:40.700 hazard since 31 00:02:40.400 --> 00:02:45.220 the late 1920s but the company hid that knowledge from its employees and 32 00:02:45.220 --> 00:02:50.680 customers listen to two plaintiff attorneys make this accusation on two 33 00:02:50.680 --> 00:02:54.720 separate television programs there's really no question that they had full 34 00:02:54.720 --> 00:02:59.760 and complete knowledge of the dangers of asbestos disease as far back as the 1930s 35 00:02:59.760 --> 00:03:03.820 and even 1920s as Dr. Nicholson has mentioned and they engage in a 36 00:03:03.820 --> 00:03:08.240 conspiracy with several other corporations that lasted over 50 years 37 00:03:08.240 --> 00:03:14.020 Johns-Manville knew since 1929 that asbestos would kill people, and they didn't get 38 00:03:14.020 --> 00:03:16.600 around to telling anybody until the late 1960s. 39 00:03:16.740 --> 00:03:22.600 Dennis Markusson is Manville's assistant corporate counsel in charge of asbestos litigation. 40 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:28.940 One of the most unfortunate things about asbestos litigation is the way medical 41 00:03:28.940 --> 00:03:34.700 information has been misused or at least misinterpreted, particularly in terms of 42 00:03:34.700 --> 00:03:36.260 who knew what when. 43 00:03:36.260 --> 00:03:42.020 in it's often said that there was knowledge about asbestos and the hazards of asbestos 44 00:03:42.020 --> 00:03:47.860 back in the 1920s or 1930s but that knowledge was very minimal very 45 00:03:47.860 --> 00:03:49.260 early in time and really 46 00:03:49.260 --> 00:03:53.980 had very little to do with the type of cases that are involved in the litigation today 47 00:03:54.600 --> 00:03:59.920 namely cases involving insulation workers who use asbestos containing materials 48 00:03:59.920 --> 00:04:00.940 and at that 49 00:04:00.940 --> 00:04:05.540 with relatively small amounts of asbestos those early case reports were 50 00:04:05.540 --> 00:04:11.700 on British textile factory workers exposed to 100% raw asbestos fiber and 51 00:04:12.220 --> 00:04:17.900 did show some asbestosis from those reports Johns-Manville initiated the 52 00:04:17.900 --> 00:04:23.840 first studies on US asbestos textile workers in 1938 the US 53 00:04:23.840 --> 00:04:24.840 Public Health 54 00:04:24.540 --> 00:04:30.620 Service established a recommended level for safe exposure to asbestos a level 55 00:04:30.620 --> 00:04:34.260 below which it was believed asbestosis would disappear. 56 00:04:34.760 --> 00:04:37.340 A 1946 U.S. government 57 00:04:37.340 --> 00:04:41.880 study of four naval shipyards found insulation workers exposed to levels 58 00:04:41.880 --> 00:04:47.020 below the Public Health Service standard and concluded those workers were not 59 00:04:47.020 --> 00:04:50.720 engaged in a hazardous occupation. However, Dr. 60 00:04:50.940 --> 00:04:52.540 Irving Selikoff's 1964 61 00:04:53.100 --> 00:04:58.800 landmark study concluded that those insulation workers were at risk even 62 00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:01.980 though their exposures were below the recommended level. 63 00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:06.280 Those workers are the subject of most of today's lawsuits. 64 00:05:07.220 --> 00:05:11.760 So to compare the factory experience of the 1930s, 65 00:05:12.200 --> 00:05:15.760 one type of worker, one type of very intense exposure 66 00:05:15.760 --> 00:05:19.880 to high levels of fiber in excess of what the US Public 67 00:05:19.880 --> 00:05:22.760 Health Service said was safe, and to say 68 00:05:22.760 --> 00:05:26.340 that that provides knowledge concerning an individual 69 00:05:26.340 --> 00:05:32.180 with very low exposure in my judgment is a misuse of the 70 00:05:32.180 --> 00:05:33.800 medical information and 71 00:05:33.800 --> 00:05:38.420 leads to false conclusions it's been acknowledged that there were early case 72 00:05:38.420 --> 00:05:43.180 reports of a health risk in asbestos workers what measures did Johns- 73 00:05:43.180 --> 00:05:48.940 Manville take to protect its employees I truly believe that Johns-Manville's 74 00:05:48.940 --> 00:05:53.840 conduct with respect to asbestos has been the most responsible conduct that 75 00:05:53.840 --> 00:05:59.620 one could imagine when the knowledge came in the 1920s and 76 00:05:59.620 --> 00:06:03.300 1930s J-M's response was to initiate 77 00:06:03.300 --> 00:06:08.800 research to ascertain whether or not there was a problem in the asbestos factories 78 00:06:08.800 --> 00:06:10.060 in the united 79 00:06:10.060 --> 00:06:16.020 states to that end they initiated a research project in cooperation 80 00:06:16.020 --> 00:06:17.020 with the Metropolitan 81 00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:22.320 Life Insurance Company and the individual who headed that research project was Dr. 82 00:06:22.320 --> 00:06:23.540 Anthony Lanza 83 00:06:23.540 --> 00:06:29.320 Now, Dr. Lanza's name might not mean much today, but in the 1930s, he was 84 00:06:29.320 --> 00:06:30.960 the figure in occupational 85 00:06:30.960 --> 00:06:35.540 health and is often referred to as the father of occupational medicine in the 86 00:06:35.540 --> 00:06:36.540 United States. 87 00:06:38.810 --> 00:06:44.290 Dr. Lanza's study was then published by the United States Public Health Service. 88 00:06:44.530 --> 00:06:48.090 Dr. Lanza's recommendations were adopted by the company. 89 00:06:48.590 --> 00:06:54.150 Dust control was installed in the plants, respirators were provided, physical examination 90 00:06:54.150 --> 00:06:58.790 programs were initiated and so it continued in the factories as it 91 00:06:58.790 --> 00:07:02.030 continues has continued over the decades and continues today 92 00:07:03.150 --> 00:07:09.350 And what actions did Johns-Manville take after the 1964 study on insulation workers in? 93 00:07:10.480 --> 00:07:13.470 1964 when the company first learned that 94 00:07:14.370 --> 00:07:18.630 the insulation products containing small amounts of asbestos fiber 95 00:07:18.630 --> 00:07:24.550 constituted a hazard to the workers using those products, it initiated a voluntary 96 00:07:24.550 --> 00:07:25.590 labeling program. 97 00:07:26.330 --> 00:07:32.250 In that voluntary labeling program, we started putting warning labels on this type 98 00:07:32.250 --> 00:07:33.250 of product 99 00:07:33.630 --> 00:07:38.610 to get the word out to the field as to hazard involved in the product, 100 00:07:38.850 --> 00:07:40.350 instructing the people 101 00:07:40.350 --> 00:07:45.270 to wear respirators, and generally advising them of the type of hazard and 102 00:07:45.270 --> 00:07:46.410 potential hazard 103 00:07:46.410 --> 00:07:51.750 involved with the product. That warning program commenced some 104 00:07:51.750 --> 00:07:53.850 eight years prior 105 00:07:53.850 --> 00:07:58.250 to any labeling requirement being initiated by the federal government, and 106 00:07:58.250 --> 00:08:03.590 I think it's also interesting that the text of the label, the 1964 label of J-M, 107 00:08:03.890 --> 00:08:07.930 to this day is more comprehensive than the label required by the federal 108 00:08:07.930 --> 00:08:13.530 government. In addition to the labeling program, the necessity existed to get the 109 00:08:13.530 --> 00:08:18.610 word out to the men in the field well it was concluded that the best way to do that 110 00:08:18.610 --> 00:08:19.730 was to 111 00:08:19.730 --> 00:08:24.710 have seminars on safe handling procedures with the people who employ the workmen 112 00:08:24.710 --> 00:08:25.710 the contractors 113 00:08:26.190 --> 00:08:31.550 and for a period of two years in the mid-1960s those seminars were held throughout 114 00:08:31.550 --> 00:08:32.550 the united 115 00:08:31.910 --> 00:08:37.690 states that seminar by the way was also offered to the United States navy and for 116 00:08:37.690 --> 00:08:38.690 reasons known 117 00:08:38.290 --> 00:08:44.470 only to the United States Navy, they rejected that offer. In addition, in the late 1960s, 118 00:08:44.510 --> 00:08:49.770 Johns-Manville was the only company to join hands, if you will, with the Asbestos 119 00:08:49.770 --> 00:08:51.610 Workers Union and 120 00:08:51.610 --> 00:08:57.390 the United States Public Health Service and initiate a research program at Mount Sinai, 121 00:08:57.550 --> 00:09:02.490 to which end we provided money, personnel, equipment that time. 122 00:09:02.530 --> 00:09:04.430 We have explained that factory workers 123 00:09:04.430 --> 00:09:10.010 were at risk to asbestosis in the 1930s when was the association between 124 00:09:10.010 --> 00:09:15.650 asbestos exposure and lung cancer known I think the first definitive 125 00:09:15.650 --> 00:09:16.650 study on 126 00:09:16.310 --> 00:09:22.350 lung cancer was in 1955 by Sir Richard Doll from the United Kingdom in which 127 00:09:22.350 --> 00:09:27.210 again he studied the factory workers not the insulation workers dr. 128 00:09:27.310 --> 00:09:28.310 Doll 129 00:09:27.590 --> 00:09:33.510 concluded that there was an increased incidence of lung cancer and then from 130 00:09:33.510 --> 00:09:39.290 Dr. Doll's studies, additional studies were fostered and promoted, and by, I think, 131 00:09:39.290 --> 00:09:45.850 the mid-1960s, again at the meeting of the New York Academy of Sciences in 1964, certainly 132 00:09:45.850 --> 00:09:50.950 the medical profession accepted that there was an increased incidence of lung cancer 133 00:09:50.950 --> 00:09:55.130 among individuals occupationally exposed to asbestos. 134 00:09:55.750 --> 00:10:00.570 Now, it's particularly significant and important to note that subsequent research 135 00:10:00.570 --> 00:10:01.570 has disclosed 136 00:10:01.550 --> 00:10:06.290 that virtually no one occupationally exposed to asbestos 137 00:10:06.290 --> 00:10:10.090 contracts lung cancer unless they smoke, 138 00:10:10.270 --> 00:10:12.250 and in particular if they smoke cigarettes. 139 00:10:13.310 --> 00:10:17.710 There are doctors today suggesting that certain lung cancers 140 00:10:17.710 --> 00:10:21.270 biologically can't be related to asbestos. 141 00:10:21.610 --> 00:10:26.030 The third disease associated with asbestos is mesothelioma. 142 00:10:26.030 --> 00:10:31.990 this rare tumor was first linked with asbestos exposure in the early 1960s 143 00:10:31.990 --> 00:10:36.110 though it has causes other than asbestos the 144 00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:39.960 plaintiff attorneys have recently 145 00:10:39.960 --> 00:10:46.160 circulated a document entitled 50 years of deception in which they charged that 146 00:10:46.160 --> 00:10:51.600 although J-M did initiate studies they were of little value since the company 147 00:10:51.600 --> 00:10:56.420 changed the research findings and controlled their publication well I'm 148 00:10:56.420 --> 00:11:02.280 glad that even our adversaries acknowledge the fact that J-M was indeed the leader 149 00:11:02.280 --> 00:11:03.280 in asbestos 150 00:11:02.980 --> 00:11:08.740 research in the United States and indeed did initiate research over the decades as 151 00:11:08.740 --> 00:11:09.740 far back 152 00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:14.760 as the late 1920s early 1930s as to a charge that that 153 00:11:14.760 --> 00:11:18.060 research was controlled and contrived 154 00:11:18.060 --> 00:11:23.780 by Johns-Manville that is the biggest piece of nonsense ever if in 155 00:11:23.780 --> 00:11:25.000 fact there's any deception 156 00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:29.340 it's in the document that's being circulated, 50 Years of Deception. 157 00:11:30.380 --> 00:11:36.060 Probably one of the biggest contentions is that the initial research 158 00:11:36.060 --> 00:11:37.900 paper done by Dr. Lanza, 159 00:11:38.040 --> 00:11:44.360 which we spoke of earlier this morning, was that we controlled that publication. 160 00:11:46.060 --> 00:11:50.200 Again, it's a nice charge, but it doesn't have any basis in fact. 161 00:11:50.200 --> 00:11:56.200 If you go to the facts surrounding the Lanza article and the galley proofs, 162 00:11:56.220 --> 00:12:01.560 you find that what Johns-Manville in fact told Dr. 163 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:04.900 Lanza was that, and I quote, 164 00:12:04.900 --> 00:12:10.600 I am sure that you understand fully that no one in our organization is 165 00:12:10.600 --> 00:12:12.140 suggesting for a moment 166 00:12:12.140 --> 00:12:17.880 that you alter by one jot or tittle any of the scientific facts 167 00:12:17.880 --> 00:12:19.860 or inevitable conclusions 168 00:12:19.860 --> 00:12:23.720 revealed or justified by your survey. 169 00:12:24.780 --> 00:12:27.880 If you look at what Dr. Lanza wrote and you compare 170 00:12:27.880 --> 00:12:31.520 with what that with what was published by the United States Public Health Service 171 00:12:31.520 --> 00:12:37.240 after I might add peer group review nothing was changed by one jot or tittle 172 00:12:37.240 --> 00:12:43.740 makes a nice story just doesn't have any basis in fact other so-called evidence 173 00:12:43.740 --> 00:12:48.680 is the 50 year old correspondence plaintiff attorneys widely use in 174 00:12:48.680 --> 00:12:53.420 courtrooms congressional hearings and with the news media and during the 175 00:12:53.420 --> 00:12:57.220 course of the many lawsuits that have been filed letters and memos have turned 176 00:12:57.220 --> 00:13:02.640 up indicating the major companies were aware that there was a problem among 177 00:13:02.640 --> 00:13:07.360 them this correspondence between the chief counsel for Johns-Manville and the 178 00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:12.200 president of Raybestos-Manhattan in which Sumner Simpson of Raybestos says 179 00:13:12.200 --> 00:13:15.900 quote the less said about asbestos the better off we are 180 00:13:15.900 --> 00:13:21.840 unquote two days later Vandiver Brown of Manville replies saying quote 181 00:13:22.660 --> 00:13:27.500 I quite agree with you that our interests are best served by having asbestosis 182 00:13:27.500 --> 00:13:30.060 receive the minimum of publicity, unquote. 183 00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:32.640 That was back in 1935. 184 00:13:33.660 --> 00:13:38.960 In all fairness, Manville feels those phrases should not be read out of context, 185 00:13:39.220 --> 00:13:43.740 but rather in relationship to the overall intent of the letters. 186 00:13:45.720 --> 00:13:50.300 As I see it personally, we would be just as well off to say nothing about it until 187 00:13:50.300 --> 00:13:51.880 our survey is complete. 188 00:13:51.880 --> 00:13:55.460 I think the less said about asbestos, the better off we are. 189 00:13:55.620 --> 00:13:57.100 But at the same time, 190 00:13:57.160 --> 00:14:01.720 we cannot lose track of the fact that there have been a number of articles on asbestos 191 00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:05.520 dust control and asbestosis in the British trade magazines. 192 00:14:06.820 --> 00:14:12.880 Johns-Manville responded, I quite agree with you that our interests are best served by 193 00:14:12.880 --> 00:14:17.940 having asbestosis receive the minimum of publicity, even if we should eventually 194 00:14:17.940 --> 00:14:18.940 decide to raise 195 00:14:18.940 --> 00:14:23.840 no objection to the publication of an article on asbestosis in the magazine in 196 00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:27.580 question I think we should warn the editors to use American data on the 197 00:14:27.580 --> 00:14:32.220 subject rather than English. Dr. Lanza has frequently remarked to me personally 198 00:14:32.220 --> 00:14:36.240 and in some of his papers that the clinical picture presented in North 199 00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:40.560 American localities where there is an asbestos dust hazard is considerably 200 00:14:40.560 --> 00:14:45.700 milder than that reported in England and South Africa. These letters always seem 201 00:14:45.700 --> 00:14:50.800 to be a source of inquiry and there is there's nothing perhaps that represents more 202 00:14:50.800 --> 00:14:51.800 ado about 203 00:14:51.460 --> 00:14:57.260 nothing they're part of a series of correspondence that's been 204 00:14:57.260 --> 00:14:59.000 collectively known as the Sumner 205 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:03.960 Simpson correspondence that's that's a portion of it and i guess that's a couple 206 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:04.960 inches thick 207 00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:10.900 from which these letters are two single pieces of paper and the reason you don't 208 00:15:10.900 --> 00:15:11.900 hear much about the 209 00:15:11.760 --> 00:15:17.040 rest of those documents is because the other inch and 15 210 00:15:17.040 --> 00:15:19.960 -16ths, I guess, relate primarily 211 00:15:19.960 --> 00:15:25.900 to medical research that's being sponsored by the companies, the funding of that research, 212 00:15:26.260 --> 00:15:28.660 and pressing to get research results. 213 00:15:29.880 --> 00:15:35.820 There is, however, one piece of paper in there that I do want to share with 214 00:15:35.820 --> 00:15:36.940 you because I 215 00:15:36.940 --> 00:15:40.260 think it sets the scene for coming to a conclusion 216 00:15:40.260 --> 00:15:44.020 that whatever was on the mind of Vandiver Brown and Sumner 217 00:15:44.020 --> 00:15:49.420 Simpson in the autumn of 1935, it certainly wasn't conspiracy. 218 00:15:51.670 --> 00:15:55.310 If you go back just a little bit in time, 219 00:15:55.550 --> 00:15:59.710 there was a meeting held on January 4, 1934, 220 00:16:00.550 --> 00:16:03.490 between Johns-Manville and Raybestos- Manhattan, 221 00:16:03.850 --> 00:16:06.350 in which they were talking about the research 222 00:16:06.350 --> 00:16:09.830 that the two companies were supporting and promoting. 223 00:16:10.490 --> 00:16:14.070 It's an interesting part of that, the minutes of that meeting, 224 00:16:14.250 --> 00:16:17.330 where it says the policies of the two companies concerned 225 00:16:18.250 --> 00:16:21.050 is that they desire through the operation of this committee 226 00:16:21.050 --> 00:16:25.070 and the resulting investigations to obtain each for itself 227 00:16:25.070 --> 00:16:29.750 the best practice possible for the elimination of dust 228 00:16:30.190 --> 00:16:33.530 and protection of employees. That's January 229 00:16:34.490 --> 00:16:39.310 1934, a year and a half before the so- called infamous letters. 230 00:16:39.530 --> 00:16:41.390 That certainly doesn't suggest 231 00:16:41.390 --> 00:16:46.350 any kind of a cover-up or conspiracy. I think it suggests responsible action. 232 00:16:46.590 --> 00:16:47.590 The other two 233 00:16:47.510 --> 00:16:53.170 inches of that material suggest the same thing. There's one other important 234 00:16:53.170 --> 00:16:55.150 point about those 235 00:16:55.150 --> 00:17:00.890 letters that I think conclusively shows that there was no cover-up or no conspiracy. 236 00:17:01.710 --> 00:17:02.970 Look at the date 237 00:17:02.970 --> 00:17:08.430 on the letters. Those letters are dated in the autumn of 1935. 238 00:17:10.090 --> 00:17:11.630 It was in January 239 00:17:11.630 --> 00:17:17.350 of 1935 that the Lanza study that we've talked about extensively 240 00:17:17.350 --> 00:17:18.350 this morning 241 00:17:18.170 --> 00:17:21.290 was published by the United States Public Health Service. 242 00:17:21.750 --> 00:17:23.050 I would suggest 243 00:17:23.050 --> 00:17:28.310 to anyone that if cover-up and conspiracy is on your mind, you don't try 244 00:17:28.310 --> 00:17:33.330 to do it 10 months after you've released the results of a five-year medical study 245 00:17:33.330 --> 00:17:34.330 for peer 246 00:17:34.270 --> 00:17:39.170 group review and seen it published in the annals of the United States Public Health Service 247 00:17:39.170 --> 00:17:45.410 which i'm told at that time was the medical journal second leading medical journal in 248 00:17:45.410 --> 00:17:50.850 circulation in the United States it just plain doesn't make sense sworn testimony 249 00:17:50.850 --> 00:17:51.850 by former 250 00:17:51.530 --> 00:17:56.790 officials of Manville also seemed to implicate the company in a cover-up according 251 00:17:56.790 --> 00:17:57.790 to testimony 252 00:17:57.450 --> 00:18:02.410 of their former medical director and a plant manager and another supervisory 253 00:18:02.410 --> 00:18:06.950 official practice what was called by the plant manager not by the lawyers a 254 00:18:06.950 --> 00:18:11.230 hush-hush policy where they would not tell the workers not only wouldn't tell 255 00:18:11.230 --> 00:18:15.190 them about the hazards of asbestos but even after they developed asbestos they 256 00:18:15.190 --> 00:18:19.950 wouldn't even tell them they had asbestos Dennis Markusson notes there 257 00:18:19.950 --> 00:18:24.970 never has been such a policy at Manville and points to later testimony given by 258 00:18:24.970 --> 00:18:26.290 the same plant manager. 259 00:18:26.910 --> 00:18:30.270 Well, I'm certainly well familiar with the testimony 260 00:18:30.270 --> 00:18:31.950 to which Mr. Motley refers. 261 00:18:32.450 --> 00:18:35.250 The important part of that testimony 262 00:18:35.250 --> 00:18:38.650 is to look at what that individual has said 263 00:18:38.650 --> 00:18:41.310 on numerous occasions over a continuum of time. 264 00:18:41.830 --> 00:18:45.690 The individual involved has been deposed perhaps three or four 265 00:18:45.690 --> 00:18:48.530 times, and he said something different every time. 266 00:18:49.030 --> 00:18:51.630 The last time he was deposed, he said, 267 00:18:51.630 --> 00:18:57.370 I really don't know what the policy was he's contradicted by the industrial 268 00:18:57.370 --> 00:19:01.230 relations manager who worked in the plant where he was the manager the 269 00:19:01.230 --> 00:19:06.190 industrial relations manager says the policy was to tell people but rather 270 00:19:06.190 --> 00:19:11.710 than argue about what somebody said or didn't say or what kind of meaning a 271 00:19:11.710 --> 00:19:17.430 transcript should have let's take a look at the facts as early as 1949 272 00:19:17.430 --> 00:19:19.510 there was 273 00:19:19.510 --> 00:19:24.950 a written policy that said doctors should advise with 274 00:19:24.950 --> 00:19:28.270 employee and suggest corrections of defects 275 00:19:28.270 --> 00:19:33.410 disclosed by physical examination so as to maintain best possible health 276 00:19:33.410 --> 00:19:37.770 1955 company policy 277 00:19:38.110 --> 00:19:43.230 our plant doctors are required by the American Medical Association code of ethics 278 00:19:43.230 --> 00:19:44.230 to discuss 279 00:19:43.830 --> 00:19:49.910 the results of physical examinations with each employee as if the employee were a patient. 280 00:19:51.660 --> 00:19:57.360 Further examples. Again, let's look at the facts. As early as 1937, 281 00:19:57.620 --> 00:19:59.600 there is a record of disclosure 282 00:19:59.600 --> 00:20:03.940 to an employee in a plant. 1947, 283 00:20:05.100 --> 00:20:09.280 in a workers' compensation claim in California, the individual 284 00:20:09.280 --> 00:20:15.100 who filed the claim testified that he had consulted with the company doctor 285 00:20:15.100 --> 00:20:18.020 who informed him he had asbestos disease. 286 00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:24.840 The record is replete with examples, factual examples, not allegations, but 287 00:20:24.840 --> 00:20:25.840 factual examples 288 00:20:26.320 --> 00:20:27.980 where employees have been told. 289 00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:33.700 The only modification to that policy of which I am aware is that there certainly 290 00:20:33.700 --> 00:20:34.700 were some 291 00:20:34.280 --> 00:20:39.780 times in early years where based on a doctor's medical judgment 292 00:20:39.780 --> 00:20:40.900 an employee 293 00:20:40.900 --> 00:20:46.160 was not advised at a particular point in time because in the physicians judgment 294 00:20:46.160 --> 00:20:51.520 that was the best thing to do the charge is usually made that Manville concealed 295 00:20:51.520 --> 00:20:56.700 knowledge of the hazards of asbestos because it would be bad for business and 296 00:20:56.700 --> 00:21:01.540 testimony by one of J-M's former medical directors seems to support that 297 00:21:01.540 --> 00:21:07.360 contention well we have the testimony before he died of the corporate medical 298 00:21:07.360 --> 00:21:11.920 director of Johns-Manville whose name was Kenneth Wallace Smith he served as 299 00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:17.600 medical director of Johns-Manville Corporation from 1944 to 1950 300 00:21:17.600 --> 00:21:18.600 and then 301 00:21:18.140 --> 00:21:23.360 again from 1952 to 1966 and before he died he gave sworn testimony 302 00:21:23.360 --> 00:21:24.700 where he 303 00:21:24.700 --> 00:21:28.480 stated that the reason he that he recommended to Johns-Manville that they 304 00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:32.420 They placed warning labels on their asbestos products and that they turned him down 305 00:21:32.420 --> 00:21:33.920 on the grounds that it would hurt profits. 306 00:21:35.060 --> 00:21:38.480 There's no question that Dr. Smith gave the testimony that Mr. 307 00:21:38.600 --> 00:21:40.460 Motley describes in 1976. 308 00:21:41.260 --> 00:21:47.200 The real issue is whether or not Dr. Smith actually made those recommendations 309 00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:53.180 with regard to asbestos-containing products in the early 1950s. 310 00:21:54.040 --> 00:21:58.900 When you examine statements like that, you look for corroboration. 311 00:21:59.280 --> 00:22:04.620 Dr. Smith is now deceased, so we have to look for corroboration other places. 312 00:22:05.720 --> 00:22:11.460 We've talked, and the plaintiff's lawyers have talked, to everyone to whom Dr. 313 00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:13.160 Smith reported in the corporation. 314 00:22:14.040 --> 00:22:17.880 We've talked to everyone who worked for Dr. 315 00:22:18.120 --> 00:22:19.980 Smith and reported to him. 316 00:22:19.980 --> 00:22:24.780 We've talked to the doctors outside of the company with whom Dr. 317 00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:25.960 Smith had dealings 318 00:22:25.960 --> 00:22:30.400 and we've searched the records of the company, the written records. 319 00:22:31.100 --> 00:22:33.040 The bottom line is there 320 00:22:33.040 --> 00:22:37.220 is not one single piece of corroboration that Dr. 321 00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:40.520 Smith ever made that recommendation to 322 00:22:40.520 --> 00:22:46.360 the company regarding asbestos containing products. In all 323 00:22:46.360 --> 00:22:48.020 probability, because there 324 00:22:48.020 --> 00:22:54.320 were other things concerning labels in the mid-1950s, non-asbestos products, in 325 00:22:54.320 --> 00:22:58.820 all probability Dr. Smith was simply confused about which type of products were 326 00:22:58.820 --> 00:22:59.820 under discussion. 327 00:23:00.840 --> 00:23:04.360 And remember, that confusion is understandable. 328 00:23:04.860 --> 00:23:09.480 Dr. Smith was testifying in 1976 about events 329 00:23:09.480 --> 00:23:15.400 that supposedly took place some 20 to 25 years prior to then, and some 10 330 00:23:15.400 --> 00:23:16.400 years after he 331 00:23:16.320 --> 00:23:22.200 left the employment of the company so the charges continue the controversy goes on 332 00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:23.820 but what about 333 00:23:23.820 --> 00:23:28.540 the victims of asbestos related disease who is responsible how will they be 334 00:23:28.540 --> 00:23:30.000 compensated and are 335 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:34.960 these thousands of lawsuits really the answer Mike Thornton plaintiff's attorney 336 00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:36.540 i'd also agree that 337 00:23:36.540 --> 00:23:41.600 Johns-Manville is uh easily the largest culprit in this industry not the only 338 00:23:41.600 --> 00:23:42.600 one but 339 00:23:42.040 --> 00:23:46.480 the largest one and they engage in a conspiracy with several other corporations 340 00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:47.800 that lasted over 341 00:23:47.800 --> 00:23:53.160 50 years and has resulted in in literally thousands and thousands of deaths 342 00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:54.400 in America 343 00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:59.240 and that's the reason why there's so many lawsuits now Manville has other thoughts 344 00:23:59.240 --> 00:24:00.380 on responsibility 345 00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:06.700 on lawsuits and on compensation well before we talk about responsibility let me 346 00:24:06.700 --> 00:24:07.800 make one comment 347 00:24:07.800 --> 00:24:10.380 on this conspiracy notion. 348 00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:16.060 Too often, conspiracy just gets repeated and repeated and repeated 349 00:24:16.060 --> 00:24:19.560 with no facts, and suddenly there's a conspiracy. 350 00:24:20.220 --> 00:24:24.120 I would hope that we can put the conspiracy notion to rest 351 00:24:24.120 --> 00:24:27.920 with some of the facts that we've gone over this morning. 352 00:24:28.420 --> 00:24:30.640 But turning to the area of responsibility, 353 00:24:30.980 --> 00:24:32.740 yes, the lawsuits are a problem. 354 00:24:32.920 --> 00:24:34.300 They're a major problem. 355 00:24:35.120 --> 00:24:37.100 But they're not really the issue. 356 00:24:37.100 --> 00:24:42.980 The issue is if there is to be compensation delivered to individuals who have 357 00:24:42.980 --> 00:24:48.360 been, through no fault of their own, suffer from occupational disease, what we've 358 00:24:48.360 --> 00:24:53.740 learned from the litigation is that tort litigation is a terrible way, a terrible, 359 00:24:53.820 --> 00:24:58.420 inequitable way, uneven way to deliver that compensation. 360 00:24:59.040 --> 00:25:04.780 The reason for that is because the tort system is predicated upon a finding of fault. 361 00:25:04.780 --> 00:25:07.980 I don't believe Johns-Manville's at fault. 362 00:25:08.140 --> 00:25:11.300 I don't believe Johns-Manville is legally liable. 363 00:25:11.500 --> 00:25:14.700 I think the facts we've discussed support that argument. 364 00:25:14.980 --> 00:25:17.420 Indeed, in the cases we've tried, 365 00:25:17.620 --> 00:25:22.580 juries have agreed about half the time and we've won about half the lawsuits we've tried. 366 00:25:23.300 --> 00:25:28.700 Of those cases against Johns-Manville, about half are filed by insulation workers 367 00:25:28.700 --> 00:25:29.700 from World 368 00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:34.620 War II shipyards. The government has refused to accept responsibility for 369 00:25:34.620 --> 00:25:39.740 these employees, leaving the asbestos producers as the sole targets of these 370 00:25:39.740 --> 00:25:45.340 lawsuits. Today, many acknowledge that all responsible parties, including the 371 00:25:45.340 --> 00:25:49.300 federal government, should participate in an equitable compensation system. 372 00:25:49.520 --> 00:25:52.260 Today filed for reorganization under Chapter 11 of the Federal Bankruptcy Code. On 373 00:25:52.260 --> 00:25:54.080 August 26, 1982, 374 00:25:54.080 --> 00:25:58.560 In 1982, Manville filed for reorganization under Chapter 11 of the Federal 375 00:25:58.560 --> 00:25:59.580 Bankruptcy Code. 376 00:26:00.110 --> 00:26:06.380 The reason? The overwhelming burden of asbestos lawsuits, both present and future projections, 377 00:26:06.740 --> 00:26:10.240 forced the company to bring the claims into one forum, 378 00:26:10.440 --> 00:26:15.540 whereby under the auspices of the court, they could receive fair and equitable treatment. 379 00:26:16.430 --> 00:26:20.520 Not surprisingly, plaintiff attorneys disagree on Manville's motives. 380 00:26:20.520 --> 00:26:26.200 lives. I also think that anyone familiar with the asbestos 381 00:26:26.200 --> 00:26:29.220 tragedy in this country, anyone familiar 382 00:26:29.220 --> 00:26:33.680 in any way with that situation, wouldn't believe that Manville truly went into 383 00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:34.680 Chapter 11 bankruptcy 384 00:26:34.660 --> 00:26:38.060 because it was concerned about paying off its future victims. 385 00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:40.680 Dennis Markusson explains the 386 00:26:40.680 --> 00:26:45.800 unusual step of filing Chapter 11. The filing of the Chapter 11 387 00:26:45.800 --> 00:26:48.000 was not an easy decision, 388 00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:51.780 But it was a decision that was predicated upon fairness. 389 00:26:52.300 --> 00:26:53.400 Let me tell you why. 390 00:26:54.980 --> 00:27:01.980 With 17,000 lawsuits pending, and we'd already proved all we can prove in those, liability 391 00:27:01.980 --> 00:27:05.480 is the linchpin of those lawsuits' fault, if you will. 392 00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:08.320 We proved that we can win half of them. 393 00:27:08.460 --> 00:27:11.280 We've proved that the plaintiffs will win about half of them. 394 00:27:11.280 --> 00:27:15.960 We know that millions of dollars will be spent on transaction costs, 395 00:27:16.120 --> 00:27:20.440 namely attorney's fees, that don't benefit anyone except some attorneys. 396 00:27:20.680 --> 00:27:26.340 When we add to that a prediction of the number of 397 00:27:26.340 --> 00:27:27.340 future claims 398 00:27:27.140 --> 00:27:33.000 and the requirement that we reserve those future claims on the books of the corporation, 399 00:27:33.800 --> 00:27:38.940 the result is a stranglehold on the company so that it would slowly 400 00:27:38.940 --> 00:27:40.540 bleed to death. 401 00:27:40.540 --> 00:27:45.800 That wouldn't benefit present claimants, future claimants, 402 00:27:45.840 --> 00:27:49.980 customers, suppliers, creditors, employees. 403 00:27:50.400 --> 00:27:54.660 Wouldn't benefit anyone. That's the inevitable track we were on. 404 00:27:55.120 --> 00:28:01.080 Chapter 11 gives us a way to put the question of fault 405 00:28:01.080 --> 00:28:07.220 behind us and to deal with everyone on a responsible, uniform basis. 406 00:28:07.220 --> 00:28:12.740 to provide an assurance that we can estimate the future number of claims, estimate 407 00:28:12.740 --> 00:28:18.100 the amount of money that it's going to take to deal in a responsible, equitable fashion 408 00:28:18.100 --> 00:28:21.720 with those claims, and uniformly with all those claims. 409 00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:27.360 And at the same time, to keep Manville a profitable, viable 410 00:28:27.360 --> 00:28:30.080 operating company, because that's essential 411 00:28:30.080 --> 00:28:35.740 to be able to fund anything, and at the same time also be fair to our 412 00:28:35.740 --> 00:28:37.600 creditors, our suppliers, 413 00:28:38.060 --> 00:28:42.700 our customers, and all the employees that have stuck with us over the years. 414 00:28:42.820 --> 00:28:43.820 I think it was an 415 00:28:43.760 --> 00:28:48.820 innovative thing to do, and I think the most important part about the Chapter 11 is more 416 00:28:48.820 --> 00:28:54.440 than anything else, it's fair to everyone. Now you've heard the story, 417 00:28:54.580 --> 00:28:56.300 not just one side, but 418 00:28:56.300 --> 00:29:01.180 all of it. As I said in the beginning, you need the whole story to make up your mind. 419 00:29:01.840 --> 00:29:07.580 Should you have questions about Manville and the asbestos issue, contact Manville Corporation, 420 00:29:08.280 --> 00:29:14.300 Corporate Relations, Post Office Box 5108, Denver, Colorado, 80217.