WEBVTT NOTE Machine transcript of the film's sound; not yet checked. 1 00:00:11.080 --> 00:00:16.780 Do you recall in Dr. Lanza's book, also, K-10, 2 00:00:16.920 --> 00:00:21.960 Exhibit K-10, that he talks about lawsuits being filed against the asbestos 3 00:00:21.960 --> 00:00:25.600 industry in the 1930s by workers claiming to have asbestosis? 4 00:00:25.880 --> 00:00:28.800 I don't recall, but I'll be glad to read it. 5 00:00:29.880 --> 00:00:31.520 All right. I'll 6 00:00:39.010 --> 00:00:40.130 come back to that in a little bit. 7 00:00:40.270 --> 00:00:41.270 Sure. 8 00:00:41.990 --> 00:00:47.870 Now, while you were with the government in 19, beginning I believe in 1961, did 9 00:00:47.870 --> 00:00:48.870 you make 10 00:00:48.250 --> 00:00:51.870 the acquaintance of a scientist by the name of Wilhelm Hueper? 11 00:00:52.290 --> 00:00:53.290 Yes, sir. 12 00:00:54.430 --> 00:00:57.510 And would you tell the jury who Dr. 13 00:00:57.670 --> 00:00:58.670 Hueper was? 14 00:00:58.530 --> 00:01:03.590 Dr. Hueper was chief of the, I guess they call it the environmental cancer section 15 00:01:03.590 --> 00:01:05.810 at the National Cancer Institute at that time. 16 00:01:06.590 --> 00:01:12.150 all right and dr Hueper was active in the field of occupational diseases beginning when 17 00:01:12.150 --> 00:01:18.000 do you know oh i'd say 10 15 18 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:21.860 years before that 20 years before that are you familiar with the book 19 00:01:21.860 --> 00:01:27.260 he wrote back in way back in 1942 yes sir i hand you a copy 20 00:01:27.260 --> 00:01:31.100 that uh of this book and ask you if 21 00:01:31.100 --> 00:01:37.060 you've ever seen before yes sir i have and it's 22 00:01:37.060 --> 00:01:40.560 entitled occupational tumors and allied diseases 23 00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:46.480 by wc Hueper dated 1942 is that correct that is correct and if 24 00:01:46.480 --> 00:01:48.120 you look where did where did that 25 00:01:48.120 --> 00:01:52.760 particular book come from look in the front of it if you don't know the charles 26 00:01:52.760 --> 00:01:53.760 dennison md 27 00:01:53.580 --> 00:01:58.660 memorial library where is that don't know you don't know do you teach at university 28 00:01:58.660 --> 00:01:59.660 of colorado 29 00:01:59.400 --> 00:02:03.660 school of medicine yes sir do you not recognize that as the university of colorado 30 00:02:03.660 --> 00:02:04.660 school of 31 00:02:04.060 --> 00:02:09.780 medicine library i have my secretary pretty much go to the library for me 32 00:02:09.780 --> 00:02:12.180 well you don't know then 33 00:02:12.180 --> 00:02:15.940 that that is in fact the name of the library it is in fact the name of the library 34 00:02:15.940 --> 00:02:16.940 the university of 35 00:02:16.820 --> 00:02:20.840 colorado yes sir all right now you teach there now is that correct that's correct 36 00:02:20.840 --> 00:02:21.840 professor of 37 00:02:21.740 --> 00:02:27.220 pathology. Now, doctor, I'm going to give you some Xerox pages. 38 00:02:27.440 --> 00:02:29.880 You can consult the book if you like, 39 00:02:30.020 --> 00:02:33.940 but these are the pages we're going to be talking about, and I've taken the liberty 40 00:02:33.940 --> 00:02:36.940 of marking that 41 00:02:36.940 --> 00:02:42.750 as Exhibit K-11. Now, 42 00:02:42.870 --> 00:02:49.090 let me ask you one question at the start, and that is, were you familiar 43 00:02:49.090 --> 00:02:55.010 you after getting your medical degree with the warner institute for therapeutic 44 00:02:55.010 --> 00:02:56.010 research in new 45 00:02:55.990 --> 00:03:01.070 york city yes sir i was aware of it was that a laboratory for research into cancer 46 00:03:01.070 --> 00:03:02.070 it was a 47 00:03:01.890 --> 00:03:07.150 laboratory for research i don't know because what okay i'm sorry was it an 48 00:03:07.150 --> 00:03:08.150 acknowledged uh 49 00:03:08.070 --> 00:03:13.610 and prestigious research laboratory i knew it i know it but it wasn't the 50 00:03:13.610 --> 00:03:14.670 saranac lab let's put 51 00:03:14.670 --> 00:03:19.050 it that way now doctor if you will look uh look 52 00:03:21.550 --> 00:03:25.690 in the table of contents yes sir and here does 53 00:03:26.110 --> 00:03:31.850 is it listed for uh some oh five or six pages various 54 00:03:31.850 --> 00:03:36.050 uh diseases yes sir okay and on page 55 00:03:38.350 --> 00:03:44.150 xx yes see that is there listed occupational cancers of the respiratory 56 00:03:44.150 --> 00:03:45.810 system yes sir you 57 00:03:45.810 --> 00:03:51.610 see that now this book was published in 1942 is that correct yes sir all right now 58 00:03:51.610 --> 00:03:52.610 if you look 59 00:03:52.190 --> 00:03:58.190 over on the next page page xx1 yes sir do you see mention of the disease 60 00:03:58.190 --> 00:04:00.730 asbestosis i do all right 61 00:04:01.210 --> 00:04:05.090 now i believe that the discussion begins on page 399 is that correct 62 00:04:07.880 --> 00:04:12.820 yes sir okay if you would sir turn over to page 399 63 00:04:12.820 --> 00:04:18.720 now let 64 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:19.720 me ask you this sir 65 00:04:22.550 --> 00:04:28.290 Dr. Hueper received an award in 1974. 66 00:04:28.570 --> 00:04:29.630 Are you familiar with that? 67 00:04:29.750 --> 00:04:30.750 I sure am. 68 00:04:30.530 --> 00:04:34.450 And in fact, I believe you sent him a telegram congratulating him upon his receipt 69 00:04:34.450 --> 00:04:35.450 of that award, did you not? 70 00:04:38.140 --> 00:04:43.900 I might have called him. Obviously, I did congratulate him, yes. 71 00:04:44.280 --> 00:04:46.380 And would you tell the jury what that award was? 72 00:04:47.260 --> 00:04:52.500 Well, you see, that probably was the UN award that was the year, was it not? 73 00:04:52.500 --> 00:04:56.800 What is the Society of SIOEH? 74 00:04:57.040 --> 00:05:00.220 The SIOEH, Society of Occupational Environmental Hygiene. 75 00:05:01.060 --> 00:05:05.420 And did Dr. Hueper not receive their first award? 76 00:05:05.880 --> 00:05:06.880 Yes, sir, he did. 77 00:05:07.080 --> 00:05:09.940 And was it not called the Percival Pott Award? 78 00:05:11.320 --> 00:05:12.320 Yes, sir. 79 00:05:12.300 --> 00:05:13.520 Who was Percival Pott? 80 00:05:14.500 --> 00:05:19.740 Percival Pott was a British surgeon that lived in the 81 00:05:19.740 --> 00:05:23.740 18th century who described the 82 00:05:25.300 --> 00:05:29.420 scleral cancers and chimney sweeps as an occupational disease. 83 00:05:29.760 --> 00:05:33.140 He described occupational-oriented cancer. 84 00:05:33.340 --> 00:05:34.340 Of one type. 85 00:05:34.380 --> 00:05:38.920 One type, yes. And was Dr. Hooper not the recipient of the first 86 00:05:39.480 --> 00:05:44.000 percival pott award for distinguished service in the field of occupational cancer 87 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:45.960 yes sir now 88 00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:52.400 doctor on page 399 do you see a discussion of asbestos yes sir 89 00:05:52.400 --> 00:05:54.760 all right would you read the 90 00:05:54.760 --> 00:06:00.000 first two sentences and then i want to ask you a question about it you mean 91 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:01.000 chemical and 92 00:06:00.860 --> 00:06:06.720 technological aspects yes sir asbestos designating a group of silicate minerals of crystalline 93 00:06:06.720 --> 00:06:11.700 fibular structure was known to the ancient world. At that time and during the 94 00:06:11.700 --> 00:06:12.700 following centuries, 95 00:06:12.680 --> 00:06:18.340 it was used occasionally in the production of perpetual lamp wicks, slouts for cremation, 96 00:06:18.400 --> 00:06:22.780 and other purposes partly of curiosity character. Radon? 97 00:06:22.920 --> 00:06:24.520 Yes, sir. It was only since the latter 98 00:06:24.520 --> 00:06:28.640 third of the last century that this material has attained a major industrial importance 99 00:06:28.640 --> 00:06:33.340 and has become of serious significance from the standpoint of industrial hygiene. 100 00:06:33.620 --> 00:06:34.620 Now, 101 00:06:33.860 --> 00:06:37.180 in 1942 doctor did you agree with dr. 102 00:06:37.340 --> 00:06:39.600 Hooper with respect to the fact that in 103 00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:45.420 the last third of the 20th century since the last third of the 19th 104 00:06:45.420 --> 00:06:46.420 century and I 105 00:06:46.060 --> 00:06:50.840 soon on into the 20th century that asbestos has obtained major industrial 106 00:06:50.840 --> 00:06:56.780 importance no I think it's a material that has been used with increasing 107 00:06:56.780 --> 00:07:02.040 frequency all right sir and that it had become by 1942 a matter of serious 108 00:07:02.040 --> 00:07:07.420 significance from the standpoint of industrial hygiene yes sir doctor you 109 00:07:07.420 --> 00:07:12.780 mentioned on direct case reports you recall that I sure do 110 00:07:12.780 --> 00:07:14.620 now do you agree 111 00:07:14.620 --> 00:07:20.500 that case reports even though they might be isolated represent sometimes the 112 00:07:20.500 --> 00:07:26.460 first warning of a subsequent appearance of large numbers of similar occurrences 113 00:07:26.460 --> 00:07:30.240 there are instances where they have but by far greater instances where they 114 00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:35.860 happen all right now doctor do you recall that the first case reports in which 115 00:07:35.860 --> 00:07:37.060 people talked about 116 00:07:37.860 --> 00:07:43.520 asbestosis and lung cancer occurred in this country way back in 1935 yes sir 117 00:07:43.520 --> 00:07:45.020 and the case 118 00:07:45.020 --> 00:07:49.780 report continued to be reported in the literature from 1935 all the way up to 1964. 119 00:07:51.180 --> 00:07:53.100 yes sir and in 120 00:07:53.100 --> 00:07:58.520 some of those case reports beginning in 1942 doctors were writing about asbestosis 121 00:07:58.520 --> 00:07:59.520 and lung 122 00:07:59.060 --> 00:08:03.600 lung cancer in shipyard workers and insulated insulation workers there were case 123 00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:04.600 reports yes 124 00:08:04.260 --> 00:08:08.980 yes now look at page 405 yes sir sentence 125 00:08:11.830 --> 00:08:16.670 that begins previous okay would you read that please 126 00:08:16.670 --> 00:08:22.490 405 yes sir previous experience with other industrial neoplasms what is a neoplasm 127 00:08:22.490 --> 00:08:23.490 a cancer 128 00:08:23.310 --> 00:08:28.650 all right perens lung cancer of the joachim stahl miners you get the spelling from here 129 00:08:29.300 --> 00:08:34.350 and lung cancer of chromate workers has shown that such isolated cases may 130 00:08:34.350 --> 00:08:35.450 represent the first 131 00:08:35.450 --> 00:08:40.090 warning of a subsequent appearance of large numbers of similar tumors of undeniable occupational 132 00:08:40.090 --> 00:08:45.970 derivation now do i understand dr Hueper there back in 133 00:08:45.970 --> 00:08:49.770 1942 was saying that case reports might lead to 134 00:08:49.770 --> 00:08:54.950 later confirmation of a cause and effect relationship between a substance and cancer 135 00:08:54.950 --> 00:09:00.510 he says it may represent and i think that is exactly what he said 136 00:09:00.510 --> 00:09:01.730 do you agree with him 137 00:09:01.730 --> 00:09:07.230 it may represent at any time okay now would you 138 00:09:07.230 --> 00:09:10.530 read down the medical legal and social aspects 139 00:09:11.770 --> 00:09:16.350 asbestosis carcinoma lung is not included in any group of occupational tumors 140 00:09:16.350 --> 00:09:17.450 recognized by any 141 00:09:17.450 --> 00:09:23.350 country the evidence presented is sufficiently serious and the 142 00:09:23.350 --> 00:09:24.670 number of persons exposed to 143 00:09:24.670 --> 00:09:29.610 the suspected causative agent large enough to indicate a thorough and extensive clinical 144 00:09:29.610 --> 00:09:34.350 statistical and environmental investigation of the incidence and causative 145 00:09:34.350 --> 00:09:35.350 interrelation doctor 146 00:09:35.310 --> 00:09:37.570 i think the word is experimental investigation 147 00:09:39.430 --> 00:09:45.590 statistical and experimental investigation of the incidence and causative interrelation 148 00:09:45.590 --> 00:09:51.110 of asbestosis and pulmonary carcinoma all right let me let me uh 149 00:09:51.110 --> 00:09:52.990 i assume a carcinoma is cancer 150 00:09:52.990 --> 00:09:57.270 correct and when he says pulmonary carcinoma he's talking about lung cancer correct 151 00:09:57.270 --> 00:09:58.510 doctor are you 152 00:09:58.510 --> 00:10:04.190 not aware that subsequent to dr. Hubert's writing in 1942 that in the countries of 153 00:10:04.190 --> 00:10:05.190 Germany and Great 154 00:10:04.870 --> 00:10:10.850 Britain by 1950 asbestos is lung cancer was considered a compensable disease 155 00:10:10.850 --> 00:10:18.350 doctor do 156 00:10:20.750 --> 00:10:26.170 you agree or do you have knowledge that by 1950 the countries of great britain and germany 157 00:10:26.170 --> 00:10:31.870 recognized lung cancer in association with asbestosis as a compensable disease yes 158 00:10:31.870 --> 00:10:33.290 sir now 159 00:10:35.980 --> 00:10:37.460 doctor now 160 00:10:43.570 --> 00:10:48.010 doctor if you could turn back to page 161 00:10:51.340 --> 00:10:57.260 400 i have all right do 162 00:10:57.260 --> 00:10:59.180 you see there i think i 163 00:10:59.180 --> 00:11:03.240 marked it about a third of the way down do you see where dr Hueper says occupational 164 00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:04.260 contact with 165 00:11:04.260 --> 00:11:09.440 asbestos is present in any in many industries using asbestos products that's what 166 00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:10.760 dr yes sir 167 00:11:10.760 --> 00:11:14.880 and do you see where he lists a whole bunch of purposes including insulation 168 00:11:14.880 --> 00:11:16.260 materials yes sir 169 00:11:16.260 --> 00:11:21.040 all right do you agree that in 1942 that occupational contact with asbestos 170 00:11:21.040 --> 00:11:25.860 was present in many industries using asbestos products including insulation materials 171 00:11:25.860 --> 00:11:30.140 Well, that was the objective form of the question here, but it does not state when 172 00:11:30.140 --> 00:11:33.580 he agreed with it and whether he agreed with it now or whether he agreed with it at 173 00:11:33.580 --> 00:11:34.580 the time. 174 00:11:33.880 --> 00:11:37.720 Well, and the text clearly refers to the manufacturer of those materials. 175 00:11:38.060 --> 00:11:39.060 No, sir, it does not. 176 00:11:39.740 --> 00:11:40.740 Now, Dr. 177 00:11:40.700 --> 00:11:42.320 Well, let the doctor read it. 178 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:44.560 Well, you can all read it, Mr. Wilson. 179 00:11:44.620 --> 00:11:46.080 You can read whatever you'd like. 180 00:11:46.340 --> 00:11:47.340 Let the doctor read it. 181 00:11:47.260 --> 00:11:48.560 I just plainly object to the form. 182 00:11:49.440 --> 00:11:55.360 Dr. Kotin, do you or did you agree in 1942 that occupational 183 00:11:55.360 --> 00:12:00.760 contact with asbestos is present in many industries using asbestos products? 184 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:04.320 It was present in industries using, I don't know what he means by many, in 185 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:06.200 industries using asbestos products, yes. 186 00:12:06.340 --> 00:12:11.440 And you previously agreed that by 1930 at least it was recognized that asbestos was 187 00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:12.780 used in insulation materials. 188 00:12:13.140 --> 00:12:14.140 Yes, sir. 189 00:12:13.920 --> 00:12:16.940 And are you familiar with Dr. Alfred Angrist? 190 00:12:17.140 --> 00:12:18.140 Yes, sir. 191 00:12:17.800 --> 00:12:23.800 and are you familiar with his publication in 1942 in the 192 00:12:23.800 --> 00:12:25.140 American Journal of Pathology? 193 00:12:25.320 --> 00:12:26.320 Yes, sir. 194 00:12:25.900 --> 00:12:31.800 And is the American Journal of Pathology a journal on which you 195 00:12:31.800 --> 00:12:32.960 served the editorial board? 196 00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:34.240 Yes, sir. 197 00:12:34.200 --> 00:12:37.900 And do you agree that in 1942, Dr. 198 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:41.560 Angrist reported two cases in this particular journal 199 00:12:41.560 --> 00:12:44.920 of asbestosis and lung cancer in shipyard workers? 200 00:12:45.160 --> 00:12:46.160 Yes, sir. 201 00:12:45.500 --> 00:12:51.370 all right now doctor um turn over to page 401 if you 202 00:12:51.370 --> 00:12:56.220 will and i believe that we marked in there 203 00:12:56.220 --> 00:13:00.760 the section i wanted to ask you about what page are you going 401 do 204 00:13:02.100 --> 00:13:03.780 you see where dr 205 00:13:05.520 --> 00:13:10.720 Hueper phrases very briefly the history of asbestosis yes sir okay 206 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:14.080 do you see where he 207 00:13:14.080 --> 00:13:19.380 talks about fatalities from asbestosis in the united states does 208 00:13:25.100 --> 00:13:26.580 he say in there fatalities 209 00:13:26.580 --> 00:13:31.980 from asbestosis as a main or contributory cause of death were published in the 210 00:13:31.980 --> 00:13:32.980 United States by 211 00:13:32.800 --> 00:13:36.360 Lynch, Stewart, Butcher, Coleman, and Shule. 212 00:13:36.560 --> 00:13:39.740 Yes, sir. Now, do you understand him to mean that there 213 00:13:39.740 --> 00:13:45.440 were writings about people dying from asbestosis written by authors 214 00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:47.320 whose names were Lynch, Stewart, 215 00:13:47.560 --> 00:13:52.820 Butcher, Coleman, and Shule? Yes, sir. Okay, and do you see where he reports that 216 00:13:52.820 --> 00:13:53.820 the Metropolitan 217 00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:59.140 Life Insurance Company recorded between 1924 and 1936, 17 218 00:13:59.140 --> 00:14:00.340 cases in which 219 00:14:00.340 --> 00:14:04.560 asbestosis contributed to the lethal outcome of the main disease. 220 00:14:04.820 --> 00:14:06.420 Yes, sir. Now 221 00:14:06.420 --> 00:14:12.240 doctor with respect to that, has your review of the literature 222 00:14:12.240 --> 00:14:13.240 revealed to you 223 00:14:13.140 --> 00:14:19.780 that by 1936 there were writings in the literature of persons dying of 224 00:14:19.780 --> 00:14:25.000 Asbestosis of asbestosis yes sir okay now 225 00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:28.300 do you see on page 401 I believe the 226 00:14:28.300 --> 00:14:33.960 next part we mark talk about the length of exposure to the disease now 227 00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:34.960 would you 228 00:14:34.540 --> 00:14:40.060 read what Dr. Hueper said back in 1942 about how long it took to get sick with 229 00:14:40.060 --> 00:14:45.140 asbestosis. Asbestosis usually develops after an exposure of three to 230 00:14:45.140 --> 00:14:51.100 15 years parenthesis marks close parenthesis but may not produce objective 231 00:14:51.100 --> 00:14:52.300 symptoms and for many 232 00:14:52.300 --> 00:14:57.360 years after the cessation of exposure to asbestos material all right is that a 233 00:14:57.360 --> 00:14:58.360 correct statement as 234 00:14:58.240 --> 00:15:04.180 you understand it of the latency period uh back in 1942 excuse me is 235 00:15:04.180 --> 00:15:06.220 what his understanding was 236 00:15:06.220 --> 00:15:11.000 in 1942 or if that is what his understanding is today doctor from your review of 237 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:12.000 the literature 238 00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:15.400 which you described that you undertook was that your understanding of the 239 00:15:15.400 --> 00:15:20.200 latency period in 1942 as expressed in the literature as expressed in the 240 00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:24.000 literature now what dr. Hueper says is it may produce symptoms subsequent to 241 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:28.280 cessation of exposure that happens all right now would you read the symptoms of 242 00:15:28.280 --> 00:15:33.160 asbestos the first symptoms are dyspnea and a cough with expectoration all right 243 00:15:33.160 --> 00:15:37.420 well let me ask you about that you've already said dyspnea is shortness of 244 00:15:37.420 --> 00:15:42.300 breath is that correct yes sir and what is a cough with expectoration cough with 245 00:15:42.300 --> 00:15:44.520 spitting okay do you 246 00:15:44.520 --> 00:15:49.140 agree with that statement in 1942 it can't happen all right now go ahead read the 247 00:15:49.140 --> 00:15:50.140 next thing later 248 00:15:49.760 --> 00:15:55.400 there is pallor cyanosis palpitation of the heart loss of appetite and weight 249 00:15:55.400 --> 00:15:56.740 and piercing pains of 250 00:15:56.740 --> 00:16:00.760 the chest during breathing now there's several terms in there that i don't 251 00:16:00.760 --> 00:16:02.000 understand what do 252 00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:06.920 you mean about what the doctor you for mean by power pale okay 253 00:16:06.920 --> 00:16:13.600 cyanosis a bluish tingeing of the skin what does that come from inadequate 254 00:16:14.180 --> 00:16:19.920 oxygenation of the blood palpitation of the heart beating of the heart so that 255 00:16:19.920 --> 00:16:23.680 you're aware of its beating loss of appetite weight I can even understand 256 00:16:23.680 --> 00:16:28.120 that now what what about piercing pains in the chest during breathing what would 257 00:16:28.120 --> 00:16:33.700 cause that what what does asbestos do to the lungs to cause that to the lungs it 258 00:16:33.700 --> 00:16:34.920 wouldn't it might 259 00:16:34.920 --> 00:16:40.800 produce some uh changes of uh well i guess 260 00:16:40.800 --> 00:16:42.900 the lungs would be i was dissecting it into its part 261 00:16:42.900 --> 00:16:46.940 sure the fibrosis could cause a constriction of the lung and there could be pain as 262 00:16:46.940 --> 00:16:47.940 the restricted 263 00:16:47.780 --> 00:16:53.220 lung tries to expand yesterday and uh then would you you read the next sentence 264 00:16:53.220 --> 00:16:56.070 the shortness of 265 00:16:56.070 --> 00:17:00.150 breath becomes the sharpness of breath becomes aggravated during physical exertion 266 00:17:00.150 --> 00:17:01.230 okay um 267 00:17:01.230 --> 00:17:07.210 explain that to me why is it that asbestosis causes an aggravation of the of the shortness 268 00:17:07.210 --> 00:17:11.130 of breath when you when you work because you as you're working or running or doing 269 00:17:11.130 --> 00:17:12.130 any exercise 270 00:17:12.650 --> 00:17:18.230 you are placing a greater demand for uh oxygen and the body 271 00:17:18.230 --> 00:17:20.590 okay now would you read the next sentence 272 00:17:20.590 --> 00:17:25.390 please in the beginning in the beginning the physical examination reveals scarcely any 273 00:17:25.390 --> 00:17:29.630 pulmonary changes but there later appears a diminution of resonance 274 00:17:29.630 --> 00:17:35.170 especially over the lower parts of the lung particularly the right side where 275 00:17:35.170 --> 00:17:39.710 dry and practical crackling sounds are perceptible in auscultation all right 276 00:17:39.710 --> 00:17:43.190 now what does auscultation mean hearing sounds from the chest through a 277 00:17:43.190 --> 00:17:48.510 stethoscope in other words the doctors saying back in 1942 a doctor can put a 278 00:17:48.510 --> 00:17:52.470 stethoscope up to a man's chest and hear things that are going on in the lungs 279 00:17:52.470 --> 00:17:57.750 that somebody's got asbestosis yes sir now would you read the next sentence the 280 00:17:57.750 --> 00:17:58.770 respiratory capacity 281 00:17:58.770 --> 00:18:04.370 is decreased and there is a diminution of the respiratory shift of the pulmonary borders 282 00:18:04.370 --> 00:18:08.630 during respiratory movements of the lung now what does that mean well he's 283 00:18:08.630 --> 00:18:09.630 describing restrictive 284 00:18:10.170 --> 00:18:15.050 pulmonary disease the respiratory capacity is decreased the amount you breathe is lowered 285 00:18:15.050 --> 00:18:19.830 that's something a doctor back in 1942 could look for in trying to find out whether 286 00:18:19.830 --> 00:18:20.830 an asbestos 287 00:18:20.450 --> 00:18:25.770 worked or had asbestosis yes okay the next and the diminution of respiratory shift 288 00:18:25.770 --> 00:18:26.770 of the pulmonary 289 00:18:26.410 --> 00:18:31.990 borders in other words as with my analogy of the lungs being balloon-like 290 00:18:31.990 --> 00:18:33.410 the balloon is blown up 291 00:18:33.410 --> 00:18:37.670 less than these kind of people okay and uh being respiratory movements of the lung 292 00:18:37.670 --> 00:18:38.670 yes the next 293 00:18:38.530 --> 00:18:42.270 starts with the heart the heart is often enlarged due to the increased functional 294 00:18:42.270 --> 00:18:43.270 demand placed on 295 00:18:43.230 --> 00:18:48.750 it because of the decreased respiratory surface and impaired circulation in the 296 00:18:48.750 --> 00:18:49.750 lung caused by 297 00:18:49.530 --> 00:18:54.610 pulmonary fibrosis now we didn't talk about this this morning and it's my fault i 298 00:18:54.610 --> 00:18:55.610 meant to ask you 299 00:18:55.230 --> 00:19:00.670 about it but is there a heart condition that sometimes complicates asbestos yes sir 300 00:19:00.670 --> 00:19:01.670 and what 301 00:19:01.110 --> 00:19:07.070 is it called core pulmonale yeah i was going to say right-sided hypertrophy 302 00:19:07.070 --> 00:19:08.090 but core pulmonology 303 00:19:08.090 --> 00:19:14.190 i was trying to avoid the technical term right-sided heart hypertrophy what do you mean 304 00:19:14.190 --> 00:19:19.550 by that well the heart as you know was divided into chambers four of them two on 305 00:19:19.550 --> 00:19:20.550 the left side 306 00:19:20.810 --> 00:19:23.750 two on the right side, and the right side of the heart, 307 00:19:24.370 --> 00:19:27.350 which pumps against the gradient of the lungs, 308 00:19:27.990 --> 00:19:30.990 as distinguished from the left side of the heart, 309 00:19:31.050 --> 00:19:32.730 which pumps blood throughout the body, 310 00:19:33.390 --> 00:19:35.370 is the one that naturally would respond 311 00:19:36.190 --> 00:19:39.330 to any increased resistance in the lungs. 312 00:19:39.610 --> 00:19:43.310 Do people who have asbestosis sometimes get sick 313 00:19:43.310 --> 00:19:46.910 with right side heart hypertrophy or choropulmonale? 314 00:19:47.210 --> 00:19:48.210 They can, yes. 315 00:19:47.950 --> 00:19:53.670 can that be fatal can it be short a life shortening 316 00:19:53.670 --> 00:19:56.590 yes yes now we're down to the 317 00:19:56.590 --> 00:19:58.630 sentence that reads the enlargement the 318 00:20:05.800 --> 00:20:07.160 enlargement of the right side of the 319 00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:12.680 heart becomes accentuated as cardiac insufficiency ensues now basically he's 320 00:20:12.680 --> 00:20:16.980 saying it it can get worse is that what he's saying correct okay and so the 321 00:20:16.980 --> 00:20:22.950 heart gets weaker and weaker is that what he's saying no he's 322 00:20:22.950 --> 00:20:23.950 saying that the 323 00:20:23.390 --> 00:20:27.730 enlargement of the heart in that sentence increase uh progresses does that mean 324 00:20:27.730 --> 00:20:28.730 though that basically 325 00:20:28.370 --> 00:20:32.750 the heart is having to work harder yes sir okay and it eventually gets weaker and weaker 326 00:20:33.770 --> 00:20:38.990 can eventually yes now we started with that fancy word for x-ray 327 00:20:38.990 --> 00:20:40.890 the lincoln examination 328 00:20:40.890 --> 00:20:46.310 of the chest shows an early diffuse interstitial fibrosis having reticular honeycombing 329 00:20:46.310 --> 00:20:51.370 The Rankin examination of the chest shows an early 330 00:20:51.370 --> 00:20:55.810 diffuse interstitial fibrosis having 331 00:20:55.810 --> 00:21:01.490 reticular honeycomb-like outlines and 332 00:21:01.490 --> 00:21:06.030 showing progressive tendencies which later cause a 333 00:21:06.030 --> 00:21:08.610 filmy hazy appearance of the lung. 334 00:21:08.990 --> 00:21:12.970 This condition has been termed ground glass appearance. 335 00:21:12.970 --> 00:21:19.170 appearance. The hilum shadows are enlarged in the more advanced stages. 336 00:21:19.910 --> 00:21:20.950 The movements 337 00:21:20.950 --> 00:21:26.310 of the diaphragm are reduced. The microscopic examination of the sputum executed 338 00:21:26.310 --> 00:21:27.310 with proper 339 00:21:27.090 --> 00:21:31.730 methods and thoroughness reveals the presence of golden brown asbestos bodies. 340 00:21:32.030 --> 00:21:38.290 Now we'll get to the asbestos bodies in a second, but is Dr. 341 00:21:38.550 --> 00:21:39.550 Hueper here describing 342 00:21:39.390 --> 00:21:44.750 what back in 1942 what a general practitioner or anybody might see if they looked 343 00:21:44.750 --> 00:21:46.270 at a chest 344 00:21:46.270 --> 00:21:50.230 x-ray of a person with asbestosis the general practitioner wouldn't know what he 345 00:21:50.230 --> 00:21:51.230 was looking 346 00:21:50.590 --> 00:21:54.250 at what he is describing is the highly sophisticated diagnosis of an x-ray 347 00:21:54.250 --> 00:21:57.150 specialist okay so an x-ray 348 00:21:57.150 --> 00:22:03.150 a radiologist in a hospital down in Charleston South Carolina could read this and 349 00:22:03.150 --> 00:22:04.150 then look at 350 00:22:03.750 --> 00:22:08.830 an x-ray of somebody who worked in the shipyard and find out whether or not he had asbestos 351 00:22:08.830 --> 00:22:14.710 is that correct radiologist yes anywhere but 352 00:22:14.710 --> 00:22:17.870 one in Charleston South Carolina could read this and 353 00:22:17.870 --> 00:22:22.170 understand what dr. Hooper was described he was a competent rent canologist yes sir 354 00:22:22.170 --> 00:22:23.210 in a rip rip 355 00:22:23.210 --> 00:22:28.830 canologist is a radiologist radio and how long doctor before 356 00:22:28.830 --> 00:22:31.650 1942 where x-rays used to diagnose 357 00:22:31.650 --> 00:22:37.130 people who had dust diseases like asbestos so many many many years many years but 358 00:22:37.130 --> 00:22:38.550 they're okay now 359 00:22:38.550 --> 00:22:42.270 Now, what is, back in 1942 when Dr. 360 00:22:42.330 --> 00:22:43.330 Huford wrote this, 361 00:22:43.870 --> 00:22:47.470 do you agree or disagree that that's a correct description 362 00:22:47.470 --> 00:22:51.270 of the type of things that you would see with somebody who had asbestos? 363 00:22:51.910 --> 00:22:53.570 I would agree, yes, sir. 364 00:22:53.970 --> 00:22:57.970 Now, Dr. Huford mentions asbestos bodies. 365 00:22:59.770 --> 00:23:02.430 What does he mean by asbestos bodies? 366 00:23:02.430 --> 00:23:08.170 Dr. Asbestos bodies are a reaction of the lung 367 00:23:08.170 --> 00:23:12.110 to the presence of asbestos fibers. 368 00:23:12.530 --> 00:23:17.670 The reaction consists of 369 00:23:17.670 --> 00:23:24.170 the encapsulation of the asbestos fiber by the defense mechanisms 370 00:23:24.170 --> 00:23:29.750 of the body, including the cells and so on. And then the 371 00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:35.620 asbestos body becomes encapsulated. 372 00:23:35.760 --> 00:23:39.400 The asbestos fiber, I beg your pardon, becomes encapsulated. 373 00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:42.620 Now the material that encapsulates 374 00:23:42.620 --> 00:23:47.400 this asbestos fiber consists of 375 00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:53.060 serum, protein. It consists of some of the 376 00:23:53.060 --> 00:23:54.200 iron that is circulating 377 00:23:54.200 --> 00:24:00.200 in the body at all time and certain pigments that 378 00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:05.220 are part of the body so that a pathologist 379 00:24:05.220 --> 00:24:11.200 can look at a section of lung or a 380 00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:16.460 specimen of sputum and identify the 381 00:24:16.460 --> 00:24:20.740 presence of this body. 382 00:24:20.740 --> 00:24:26.640 now in 1942 it was assumed as I was taught and as 383 00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:29.920 indeed I did teach early that asbestos bodies 384 00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:35.200 were exclusively indicative of 385 00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:40.720 asbestos in the lung the term asbestos body has been superseded 386 00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:47.420 by a term I'm anticipating because I believe I've heard you say this before ferruginous 387 00:24:47.420 --> 00:24:52.800 ah ferruginous body f-e-r-r-i-g-u-g 388 00:24:52.800 --> 00:24:57.640 -i-n-o-u-s i might have lost my ferruginous let me ask you 389 00:24:57.640 --> 00:25:01.640 this about let me finish oh i'm sorry i thought you and these ferruginous bodies 390 00:25:02.260 --> 00:25:08.240 are called ferruginous because the term is derived from the latin 391 00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:09.460 word ferro for iron 392 00:25:09.460 --> 00:25:15.400 because a pathologist will use an iron type stain to identify these bodies they're 393 00:25:15.400 --> 00:25:16.400 caused by fibers 394 00:25:16.340 --> 00:25:21.720 not asbestos fibers alone an array of fibers can cause it can produce it thank you 395 00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:23.640 doctor now over 396 00:25:23.640 --> 00:25:28.040 on page 403 yes sir dr. 397 00:25:28.320 --> 00:25:32.900 Hueper starts talking about asbestosis and carcinoma of the lung that means 398 00:25:32.900 --> 00:25:38.040 asbestosis and lung cancer never right all right would you read the paragraph 399 00:25:38.040 --> 00:25:39.540 beginning it is it 400 00:25:39.540 --> 00:25:44.660 is only in very recent years that serious consideration has been given to the possibility 401 00:25:44.660 --> 00:25:50.220 of a cancerogenic action of asbestos asbestosis upon the lung 402 00:25:50.220 --> 00:25:53.320 what is cancerogenic me cancer 403 00:25:53.320 --> 00:25:59.300 causing and an analysis of 18,000 280 death certificates for cancer of the 404 00:25:59.300 --> 00:26:00.300 lung and larynx 405 00:26:00.140 --> 00:26:06.120 and males from England and Wales from 1921 to 1932 Ken 406 00:26:06.120 --> 00:26:09.380 away and Ken away did not find any cases of 407 00:26:09.380 --> 00:26:15.340 lung cancer in asbestos workers. Since 1935, an appreciable number 408 00:26:15.340 --> 00:26:17.140 of cases of asbestosis 409 00:26:17.140 --> 00:26:22.040 associated with carcinoma of the lung have been reported from England, Germany, and 410 00:26:22.040 --> 00:26:23.040 the United 411 00:26:22.260 --> 00:26:27.920 States. Lynch and Smith, Lynch, Gloyne, Wood, Horning, 412 00:26:28.040 --> 00:26:31.400 Nordman, and Egbert and Geiger. The 413 00:26:31.400 --> 00:26:37.400 incidence of lung cancer among workers in whom an asbestos was found at autopsy 414 00:26:37.400 --> 00:26:43.280 is relatively high, ranging from 17% more than 2 out of 17 cases 415 00:26:43.280 --> 00:26:48.780 to 20% with 2 or 3 or possibly 3 out of 12 cases. 416 00:26:49.980 --> 00:26:56.040 Teleky noted that there exists a minimum of 39 and a maximum of 78 autopsies 417 00:26:56.040 --> 00:26:58.320 in fatalities from asbestosis. 418 00:26:58.980 --> 00:27:03.240 The records not being clear in this respect. 419 00:27:04.460 --> 00:27:10.300 Tellicke only knows of six cases of pulmonary cancer with asbestosis and feels 420 00:27:10.300 --> 00:27:14.420 that the ratio is high in comparison to the number of necropsies. 421 00:27:14.600 --> 00:27:15.960 What is a necropsy? 422 00:27:16.040 --> 00:27:17.040 Autopsy. 423 00:27:17.760 --> 00:27:20.080 Kulch mentioned the occurrence of 12 cases. 424 00:27:20.800 --> 00:27:25.860 Lynch 3, Egbert and Geiger 1, Gloyne 2, Domenici 2, Bader 1, 425 00:27:26.120 --> 00:27:28.400 Nordman 2, Wood 3, and Horning 1. 426 00:27:30.020 --> 00:27:33.840 Lynch and Smith found among 35 autopsies with asbestosis 427 00:27:33.840 --> 00:27:36.860 two cases of pulmonary malignancy, 6%, 428 00:27:37.940 --> 00:27:43.620 whereas there was an incidence of only 0.3% of this type of neoplasia 429 00:27:43.620 --> 00:27:48.520 among approximately 2,300 autopsies of the general population. 430 00:27:48.900 --> 00:27:52.100 Now, is that consistent with what you said about lung cancer 431 00:27:52.100 --> 00:27:54.200 being a rare disease in the 30s and 40s? 432 00:27:54.820 --> 00:27:58.040 An uncommon disease, yes. It's certainly not as common as it is now. 433 00:27:58.040 --> 00:28:01.580 Now, let me ask you this question about what you just read, Dr. 434 00:28:01.720 --> 00:28:02.720 Cote. 435 00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:06.360 And that is whether or not, in 1942, Dr. 436 00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:08.400 Hueper had done a commendable job 437 00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:14.220 of bringing together all the cases of asbestosis and lung cancer in the literature. 438 00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:17.780 I think Dr. Hueper did a very comprehensive job, 439 00:28:18.540 --> 00:28:22.120 but as with so many of the studies, an uncritical job. 440 00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:23.480 All right. 441 00:28:23.240 --> 00:28:28.480 Now, the doctor on page 404, 442 00:28:28.660 --> 00:28:34.290 the second paragraph starting an evaluation. 443 00:28:34.690 --> 00:28:38.770 Would you read that, please? 444 00:28:41.860 --> 00:28:46.880 An evaluation of the evidence presented revealed certain features connected with 445 00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:50.840 these cases which are suggestive of an occupational causation. 446 00:28:51.860 --> 00:28:57.040 There is an incidence of lung cancer in asbestosis of the lung, which is definitely excessive. 447 00:28:57.040 --> 00:29:01.240 All right. Now, Dr. Hueper wrote this in 1942. 448 00:29:01.620 --> 00:29:02.620 Is that correct? 449 00:29:02.380 --> 00:29:03.380 Correct. 450 00:29:02.760 --> 00:29:08.660 And I believe that in 1955, you reached 451 00:29:08.660 --> 00:29:11.760 the conclusion that asbestos was a carcinogen. 452 00:29:11.840 --> 00:29:12.840 Is that correct? 453 00:29:13.280 --> 00:29:14.540 Put it along, yes, sir. 454 00:29:14.600 --> 00:29:19.280 Yes. And between the years 1942 and 1955, did Dr. 455 00:29:19.480 --> 00:29:24.720 Hueper continue to publish articles in which he urged that asbestos was a carcinogen? 456 00:29:25.460 --> 00:29:26.460 He did, yes. 457 00:29:26.460 --> 00:29:31.360 In fact, in the 1950s, you co-authored a paper with Dr. 458 00:29:31.540 --> 00:29:34.960 Hueper in which both of you wrote that asbestos caused cancer. 459 00:29:35.040 --> 00:29:36.040 Isn't that correct? 460 00:29:35.700 --> 00:29:36.700 I don't remember. 461 00:29:36.840 --> 00:29:38.060 It was in the 1950s, yes. 462 00:29:40.480 --> 00:29:46.300 Now, Dr., you recall 463 00:29:46.300 --> 00:29:50.300 when we were talking about Dr. Lanz's book that was written back in 1938, 464 00:29:50.720 --> 00:29:53.820 the one K-10, I believe. 465 00:29:53.880 --> 00:29:54.880 Oh, yeah. 466 00:29:54.040 --> 00:29:59.700 and he mentioned that some of the dangerous occupations were mixing 467 00:30:01.340 --> 00:30:05.200 asbestos up you remember that and another one was sawing asbestos you 468 00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:10.660 remember that yes I'd ask you to take a look at these two pictures and then I'm 469 00:30:10.660 --> 00:30:14.440 gonna try to see with the cameraman and I can work this so that the jury can see 470 00:30:14.440 --> 00:30:19.460 to the question and the use of the photographs 471 00:30:19.460 --> 00:30:25.160 is that how you want me to hold 472 00:30:25.160 --> 00:30:26.400 uh can you zoom in 473 00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:32.200 on that mr cameraman objection yes and and and also to the zooming 474 00:30:32.200 --> 00:30:33.200 in on the picture 475 00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:38.980 uh hold on mr cameraman can you hold them yeah let me know how that's good excuse me 476 00:30:38.980 --> 00:30:43.000 we like to have a little bit better practice under these circumstances since photographs 477 00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:46.980 have not been ruled admissible to keep them off camera until such times they are 478 00:30:46.980 --> 00:30:47.980 ruled admissible 479 00:30:47.660 --> 00:30:49.060 Well, then they can be shown to the jury. 480 00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:51.540 Can you get it, Mr. Cameraman? 481 00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:52.720 Yeah, I got that one. 482 00:30:52.620 --> 00:30:53.620 All right. 483 00:30:53.500 --> 00:30:55.120 Now, Doctor, let's talk about it a minute. 484 00:30:55.200 --> 00:30:57.440 Mr. Paul, on Star Day, I object. 485 00:30:57.500 --> 00:31:01.780 We have not had an opportunity to even look at the things he's offered to witness. 486 00:31:02.660 --> 00:31:06.160 Madam, I also object to the zooming in on the camera 487 00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:11.420 not being in conformity with the order of the United States District Court in South Carolina. 488 00:31:14.080 --> 00:31:15.920 Doctor, have you taken a look at that picture? 489 00:31:16.040 --> 00:31:17.080 I have, yes, sir. 490 00:31:18.300 --> 00:31:24.230 what is that worker doing? I guess he has a saw in 491 00:31:24.230 --> 00:31:26.610 his hand and he's sawing. Is there dust 492 00:31:26.610 --> 00:31:30.570 liberated from the use of that saw? There's dust being liberated, yes sir. 493 00:31:31.250 --> 00:31:32.410 Do you have an opinion 494 00:31:32.410 --> 00:31:36.850 as to whether... Objective form of the question is the pictures speak for themselves. 495 00:31:37.330 --> 00:31:38.330 Do you have an 496 00:31:38.110 --> 00:31:43.870 opinion sir whether or not there's a potential hazard involved in the operation 497 00:31:43.870 --> 00:31:44.870 of that saw 498 00:31:44.470 --> 00:31:49.270 all as is depicted in that picture well i don't know that the picture is that 499 00:31:49.270 --> 00:31:50.270 informative to me 500 00:31:50.270 --> 00:31:54.230 because i don't i see a lot of white stuff floating around that could or could not be 501 00:31:54.230 --> 00:31:58.890 any one of many things including asbestos all right but generically can sawing 502 00:31:58.890 --> 00:31:59.890 create a problem 503 00:31:59.810 --> 00:32:05.570 yes all right now doctor this is uh k 12. 504 00:32:06.890 --> 00:32:10.930 the last one was k11 i believe so i believe this is k12 505 00:32:12.150 --> 00:32:17.310 it's 12 and 13 the pictures are 12 and 13 this is k-12 the first picture that saw 506 00:32:17.310 --> 00:32:18.310 was k-12 507 00:32:18.110 --> 00:32:21.430 mr cameraman can you focus on that all 508 00:32:31.190 --> 00:32:33.710 right doctor would you take a look at that yes sir 509 00:32:33.710 --> 00:32:38.830 now what does that worker do well it's a worker wearing a respirator and a hard hat 510 00:32:38.830 --> 00:32:44.730 who is uh has a hole-like material and he's uh mixing 511 00:32:44.730 --> 00:32:49.840 something okay did you agree uh with 512 00:32:49.840 --> 00:32:54.880 Dr. Lanza and Dr. Merewether that the mixing up of dry 513 00:32:54.880 --> 00:32:57.380 materials which 514 00:32:57.380 --> 00:33:01.360 contained asbestos is a potentially hazardous activity. 515 00:33:01.580 --> 00:33:02.580 It can be potentially 516 00:33:02.520 --> 00:33:05.160 hazardous. Yes, thank you. Now. 517 00:33:09.230 --> 00:33:12.290 Well, is this about time for you to break lunch? 518 00:33:12.590 --> 00:33:13.590 Excellent. 519 00:33:28.200 --> 00:33:35.340 Now, Dr. Kotin, when Mr. 520 00:33:35.560 --> 00:33:37.480 Wilson initially examined you, 521 00:33:38.240 --> 00:33:41.600 he went into some detail with respect to your background 522 00:33:41.600 --> 00:33:44.980 prior to your assuming your present position. 523 00:33:44.980 --> 00:33:50.400 and I have had the opportunity to 524 00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:53.920 review many of the articles that you have 525 00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:59.400 written and I believe that you would agree with me 526 00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:02.800 that your majority of your 527 00:34:02.800 --> 00:34:08.800 articles deal with your experiments and findings with respect to 528 00:34:08.800 --> 00:34:10.460 the effect of 529 00:34:10.460 --> 00:34:15.540 Certain substances on the air that the general population breathes. 530 00:34:15.540 --> 00:34:16.540 Is that correct? 531 00:34:24.170 --> 00:34:27.450 the model that I used was hydrocarbons and 532 00:34:28.170 --> 00:34:32.690 the experimental models that I use in animals the principles of 533 00:34:32.690 --> 00:34:36.150 My studies have a universal applicability to chest diseases. 534 00:34:36.450 --> 00:34:39.590 We're going to come to that. Thank you. Okay now 535 00:34:40.650 --> 00:34:41.650 Dr. Kotin 536 00:34:42.350 --> 00:34:47.630 Will you agree that there were others who were involved in? 537 00:34:47.630 --> 00:34:53.250 dust diseases such as silicosis and asbestosis during the same period of 538 00:34:53.250 --> 00:34:56.890 time that you were mainly involved in the effect of hydrocarbons. 539 00:34:57.050 --> 00:34:59.590 Yes sir. And 540 00:34:59.590 --> 00:35:05.390 Dr. Leroy Gardner and Dr. Arthur Vorwald who are 541 00:35:05.390 --> 00:35:06.770 directors of the 542 00:35:06.770 --> 00:35:12.530 Saranac laboratory are two of the persons who were doing research on 543 00:35:12.530 --> 00:35:16.390 asbestos disease at the same time you were doing research on hydrocarbons. 544 00:35:16.450 --> 00:35:17.450 Is 545 00:35:16.550 --> 00:35:22.450 that correct that is correct okay and dr cutton the uh the fact of the matter 546 00:35:22.450 --> 00:35:23.950 is that from 1961 547 00:35:24.710 --> 00:35:30.150 through 1966 you spent very little time on asbestosis 548 00:35:30.150 --> 00:35:32.230 because of your devotion to cancer 549 00:35:32.230 --> 00:35:36.890 research is that correct no that is not correct because basically uh 550 00:35:36.890 --> 00:35:39.410 well first of all i don't 551 00:35:39.410 --> 00:35:43.770 know what you mean with your very littles and very more uh or very much but 552 00:35:43.770 --> 00:35:45.190 basically to the 553 00:35:45.190 --> 00:35:50.970 the extent that asbestosis might have been a link in the production of lung 554 00:35:50.970 --> 00:35:56.310 cancer I would agree yes but it was not the 555 00:35:56.310 --> 00:35:59.330 it didn't occupy most of my time by 556 00:35:59.330 --> 00:36:04.670 any manner of means it occupied little not very little little 557 00:36:04.670 --> 00:36:06.630 well do you 558 00:36:06.630 --> 00:36:12.250 remember that last Friday much of the same group of lawyers was here 559 00:36:12.250 --> 00:36:13.250 in the 560 00:36:12.870 --> 00:36:17.870 same room and we took your testimony uh what's called a discovery deficit yes sir 561 00:36:17.870 --> 00:36:19.390 okay and on 562 00:36:19.390 --> 00:36:24.530 page 98 mr wilson i asked you this question doctor is it true that you spent very 563 00:36:24.530 --> 00:36:25.910 little time between 564 00:36:25.910 --> 00:36:31.770 the years 1961 and 1966 on the subject of asbestosis because your 565 00:36:31.770 --> 00:36:32.770 attention was primarily 566 00:36:32.770 --> 00:36:37.370 devoted to cancer matters and your answer was that's absolutely true i should have commented 567 00:36:37.370 --> 00:36:42.550 it on the very little i don't know the berry i don't uh all right you throw me with 568 00:36:42.550 --> 00:36:43.550 the berries 569 00:36:43.630 --> 00:36:46.310 okay um now 570 00:37:00.640 --> 00:37:06.240 doctor before you assumed your present position 571 00:37:06.240 --> 00:37:12.040 in 1974 is it correct that number one 572 00:37:12.600 --> 00:37:18.140 you never did any animal research yourself on asbestos or asbestos diseases 573 00:37:18.140 --> 00:37:19.160 that is correct 574 00:37:19.160 --> 00:37:24.820 number two before 1974 you never authored or wrote any 575 00:37:24.820 --> 00:37:25.820 articles dealing 576 00:37:25.700 --> 00:37:31.520 with asbestos or asbestos disease I thought you asked me 577 00:37:31.520 --> 00:37:33.300 earlier and cited a 578 00:37:33.300 --> 00:37:36.780 situation where I co-authored a paper without you but I don't but on my own 579 00:37:36.780 --> 00:37:43.060 work I did nothing in the way of publishing and number three before 1974 580 00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:50.240 you never conducted or participated in the conduct of any epidemiologic study 581 00:37:50.240 --> 00:37:55.640 of asbestos workers that is correct and number four before 582 00:37:55.640 --> 00:37:57.700 1974 you never 583 00:37:57.700 --> 00:38:03.220 conducted nor participated in the conduct of any study to determine the 584 00:38:03.220 --> 00:38:08.060 levels of asbestos to which various industrial workers might be exposed 585 00:38:08.060 --> 00:38:13.880 correct and number five that before 1974 you 586 00:38:13.880 --> 00:38:15.980 did not join any of the various 587 00:38:15.980 --> 00:38:19.100 occupational medicine specialty groups. 588 00:38:19.240 --> 00:38:25.220 In terms 589 00:38:25.220 --> 00:38:30.220 of the American Occupational 590 00:38:30.220 --> 00:38:37.720 Medical Association, that is correct. Right, and number six, you never presented 591 00:38:37.780 --> 00:38:42.860 any papers at the Saranac Laboratory Symposia on 592 00:38:42.860 --> 00:38:44.940 Asbestos Diseases. Correct. 593 00:38:45.140 --> 00:38:50.960 And you never presented any papers at the Industrial Health Foundation or at 594 00:38:50.960 --> 00:38:56.260 its predecessor the industrial hygiene foundation seminars on asbestos diseases 595 00:38:56.260 --> 00:38:58.360 correct and number 596 00:38:58.360 --> 00:39:04.180 seven before 1974 you had never visited an asbestos 597 00:39:04.180 --> 00:39:07.020 fabricating plant or an asbestos mine 598 00:39:07.020 --> 00:39:12.840 correct and before 1974 this is 599 00:39:12.840 --> 00:39:16.100 number eight you never conducted any studies yourself 600 00:39:16.100 --> 00:39:21.600 on insulation products which contained asbestos to determine whether or not 601 00:39:21.600 --> 00:39:22.720 experimental animals 602 00:39:22.720 --> 00:39:29.240 might develop asbestos correct right and are you personally aware that dr. 603 00:39:29.300 --> 00:39:31.880 Gardner bore wall and 604 00:39:31.880 --> 00:39:37.980 Garrett Schepers all conducted such tests on insulation products which contained asbestos 605 00:39:37.980 --> 00:39:43.560 they conducted research on products containing asbestos yes and dr. 606 00:39:43.720 --> 00:39:44.720 coat and the fact of the 607 00:39:44.660 --> 00:39:49.880 matter is that the Dreessen study that 1938 study that mr wilson asked you about 608 00:39:49.880 --> 00:39:51.340 you didn't even 609 00:39:51.340 --> 00:39:56.700 read that until you went with the government in the late 1950s early 1960s did you correct 610 00:39:57.860 --> 00:40:02.600 and the fact of the matter is doctor that you weren't even aware of and had not 611 00:40:02.600 --> 00:40:04.160 read the fleischer 612 00:40:04.160 --> 00:40:08.780 study that mr uh wilson asked you about until you went with the government isn't 613 00:40:08.780 --> 00:40:09.780 that correct no i 614 00:40:09.620 --> 00:40:12.480 I can't give you a date on that, but you're wrong. 615 00:40:12.700 --> 00:40:15.860 I think I've testified before that Dr. 616 00:40:16.040 --> 00:40:18.900 Philip Drinker and I were friends, 617 00:40:19.020 --> 00:40:24.460 certainly acquaintances, and we discussed the area of occupational and 618 00:40:24.460 --> 00:40:25.460 environmental health. 619 00:40:25.500 --> 00:40:30.620 But basically, insofar as the specific article itself, 620 00:40:30.900 --> 00:40:33.580 the government date would be the correct one. 621 00:40:33.680 --> 00:40:34.680 All right. 622 00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:37.780 So you did not read the Fleischer study before you went with the government in 1958? 623 00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:39.400 Correct. 624 00:40:40.540 --> 00:40:45.200 Now, Dr., let's talk a second about Dr. 625 00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:48.360 Selikoff's paper in 1964. 626 00:40:49.040 --> 00:40:54.820 The fact of the matter is, his initial findings were published, were presented in 627 00:40:54.820 --> 00:40:59.920 1963 at the annual convention of the American Medical Association in Atlantic City, 628 00:41:00.040 --> 00:41:01.040 New Jersey, weren't they? 629 00:41:00.860 --> 00:41:01.860 That's correct. 630 00:41:01.700 --> 00:41:07.040 And they were published in April 1964 in the Journal of the American Medical Association. 631 00:41:07.380 --> 00:41:08.380 Correct. 632 00:41:07.880 --> 00:41:13.780 And I believe you testified yesterday that the American Medical 633 00:41:13.780 --> 00:41:19.220 Association journal is one that is more widespread than the so-called specialty journal. 634 00:41:19.340 --> 00:41:21.160 It's read widely, yes. 635 00:41:21.300 --> 00:41:27.000 So if a company had a plant physician, an asbestos company had a plant physician, 636 00:41:27.260 --> 00:41:30.840 if he didn't read anything else, he's likely to have read the Journal of the 637 00:41:30.840 --> 00:41:32.340 American Medical Association, wouldn't he? 638 00:41:32.340 --> 00:41:37.980 I can't say but he would it's a journal that he would get yes 639 00:41:37.980 --> 00:41:40.020 most doctors are members of the 640 00:41:40.020 --> 00:41:45.220 American Medical Association aren't correct and all members of the American Medical Association 641 00:41:45.220 --> 00:41:50.880 get the journal the American correct now doctor when Dr. 642 00:41:51.120 --> 00:41:53.800 Selikoff was in New York in October 1964 643 00:41:54.660 --> 00:41:59.220 that was a very important conference wasn't it yes sir and I believe you've 644 00:41:59.220 --> 00:42:00.220 testified previously 645 00:42:00.200 --> 00:42:05.840 that 90 to 95 percent of the world's asbestos experts were at that conference. 646 00:42:05.980 --> 00:42:10.000 Is that correct? Some figure approximating that, yes. I believe you said 647 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:14.440 somebody dropped a bomb on the on the meeting room that all the expertise in 648 00:42:14.440 --> 00:42:17.920 the world would have gone out the window. A major, major portion would go out the window. 649 00:42:18.200 --> 00:42:19.200 And 650 00:42:18.600 --> 00:42:22.180 virtually every asbestos expert in the world was there, weren't they, Doctor? I 651 00:42:22.180 --> 00:42:23.180 don't know what 652 00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:26.580 you mean by virtually. I think the 90, 95 percent, nine out of ten were there, right. 653 00:42:26.580 --> 00:42:28.120 Dr. Kotin, were you there? 654 00:42:28.460 --> 00:42:31.880 No, you know why I wasn't there. I was appearing before Congress. 655 00:42:31.980 --> 00:42:34.280 I had planned to go there, I helped fund the conference, 656 00:42:34.500 --> 00:42:40.400 and it was my intention to go. I had people there, but I wasn't there. 657 00:42:40.680 --> 00:42:41.680 All right. 658 00:42:51.140 --> 00:42:55.840 Now, Dr. Kotin, 659 00:42:56.040 --> 00:43:01.680 do you agree 660 00:43:01.680 --> 00:43:06.960 that to the extent that a company had a medical director in 1950, 661 00:43:06.960 --> 00:43:12.360 1950, that that medical director, I'm talking about an asbestos product company, 662 00:43:12.560 --> 00:43:13.940 had a responsibility 663 00:43:13.940 --> 00:43:18.680 in 1950 to monitor the literature for articles on his products. 664 00:43:20.720 --> 00:43:22.280 You should be aware of it, yes, sir. 665 00:43:22.700 --> 00:43:27.180 Now, let me ask you, doctor, you indicated that you weren't at the New York Academy 666 00:43:27.180 --> 00:43:28.180 of Sciences 667 00:43:27.620 --> 00:43:31.220 meeting, is that correct? As I recall, I did not attend any of the sessions. 668 00:43:31.640 --> 00:43:32.640 Do you remember 669 00:43:32.300 --> 00:43:37.980 Do you remember testifying down in old Greenville, Tennessee, back in 670 00:43:37.980 --> 00:43:39.100 February of 1977? 671 00:43:39.440 --> 00:43:40.440 You're right. 672 00:43:39.900 --> 00:43:43.400 Do you remember being asked this question on page 53, Mr. 673 00:43:43.460 --> 00:43:44.460 Wilson? 674 00:43:43.840 --> 00:43:44.840 Yeah. 675 00:43:44.300 --> 00:43:49.720 I believe Dr. Selikoff gave his report on October 26, 1964. 676 00:43:50.340 --> 00:43:51.340 Isn't that correct? 677 00:43:51.380 --> 00:43:52.380 Correct. 678 00:43:51.740 --> 00:43:55.220 And your answer was, I don't remember the exact date, but it was the fall. 679 00:43:55.400 --> 00:43:56.560 I was at the conference. 680 00:43:56.840 --> 00:43:58.280 I did not attend those sessions. 681 00:43:58.880 --> 00:44:01.040 So if you told, well, did you say that? 682 00:44:01.600 --> 00:44:05.940 yes it says there yeah but i did not attend the sessions i was the sponsor of the conference 683 00:44:06.520 --> 00:44:10.720 and did not attend the scientific sessions because the day he presented it i was 684 00:44:10.720 --> 00:44:14.680 testifying before congress and the fact of the matter is doctor that you testified 685 00:44:14.680 --> 00:44:15.700 in 1978 686 00:44:15.700 --> 00:44:20.240 on the deposition that you were at that conference could very well be i just didn't 687 00:44:20.240 --> 00:44:21.240 attend the the 688 00:44:20.940 --> 00:44:26.780 sessions that the papers were presented now doctor did i 689 00:44:26.780 --> 00:44:27.780 understand you to 690 00:44:29.220 --> 00:44:34.540 did i understand you to testify this morning that it was rare i believe you said 691 00:44:34.540 --> 00:44:35.540 very rare 692 00:44:35.140 --> 00:44:41.120 for a industry to have a medical director back in the 1930s i think it 693 00:44:41.120 --> 00:44:42.640 was very i didn't say 694 00:44:42.640 --> 00:44:47.660 very rare i said it was very unusual and then i added the word rare okay and in 695 00:44:47.660 --> 00:44:49.160 fact you testified 696 00:44:49.160 --> 00:44:54.400 before that you could count occupational doctors on two hands back in the 1950s 697 00:44:54.400 --> 00:44:55.400 correct which would 698 00:44:55.220 --> 00:45:01.070 be consistent with that yes sir let me hand you uh a couple of documents 699 00:45:01.070 --> 00:45:02.690 doctor council 700 00:45:17.380 --> 00:45:18.380 we can 701 00:45:17.740 --> 00:45:19.460 receive yes don't 702 00:45:57.790 --> 00:46:01.830 stop this is the first time the documents have been presented to us yes uh and uh 703 00:46:02.750 --> 00:46:05.790 uh if you don't mind i would like an opportunity to at least review 704 00:46:05.790 --> 00:46:09.550 i'll be delighted to my question was do you want the camera to run while you're 705 00:46:09.550 --> 00:46:10.550 doing that 706 00:46:09.910 --> 00:46:15.290 dead time not necessarily can you cut the camera please and i'll give you all of 707 00:46:15.290 --> 00:46:16.290 these documents 708 00:46:15.830 --> 00:46:18.310 that I'm going to use in this segment, if you'd like, Mr. Wilson. 709 00:46:18.790 --> 00:46:19.790 Okay? 710 00:46:22.200 --> 00:46:27.780 Now, Dr. Kotin, I have given you a copy of Exhibit 14. 711 00:46:28.840 --> 00:46:29.840 Yes, sir. 712 00:46:30.180 --> 00:46:33.700 K14, which purports to be a copy of something entitled 713 00:46:33.700 --> 00:46:37.980 The Encyclopedia of American Associations, First Edition, 1956. 714 00:46:38.740 --> 00:46:39.740 Yes, sir. 715 00:46:39.340 --> 00:46:40.620 Do you have a copy of the same thing I have? 716 00:46:40.640 --> 00:46:41.640 I do. 717 00:46:41.220 --> 00:46:42.220 All right. 718 00:46:41.920 --> 00:46:45.080 And then I've given you a copy of page 172. 719 00:46:45.120 --> 00:46:46.120 Do you see that? 720 00:46:45.880 --> 00:46:46.880 I sure do. 721 00:46:46.620 --> 00:46:47.620 All right. 722 00:46:47.140 --> 00:46:52.140 do you see any the american industrial hygiene association listed there yes sir and 723 00:46:52.140 --> 00:46:53.140 you familiar 724 00:46:52.460 --> 00:46:56.540 with that association i am and do you see the industrial hygiene foundation of 725 00:46:56.540 --> 00:46:57.540 america listed 726 00:46:57.180 --> 00:47:01.120 there yes are you familiar with that organization yes sir all right do you see the industrial 727 00:47:01.120 --> 00:47:06.080 medical association mentioned there i sure do now do you see where it says that 728 00:47:06.080 --> 00:47:07.080 that association has 729 00:47:07.060 --> 00:47:12.900 3 300 members oh yes sir and that it was founded in 1915 yes sir and you see where 730 00:47:12.900 --> 00:47:13.900 it's an 731 00:47:13.160 --> 00:47:19.800 organization of medical directors and plant physicians yes sir all right now and also 732 00:47:19.800 --> 00:47:24.140 and also i think i'd like to define medical directors and plant physicians 733 00:47:24.140 --> 00:47:29.920 i would say that the assumption is that these medical directors and plant 734 00:47:29.920 --> 00:47:30.980 physicians were all 735 00:47:30.980 --> 00:47:36.520 full-time physicians as the medical director was at the Johns-Manville corporation 736 00:47:36.520 --> 00:47:37.900 in fact today a 737 00:47:37.900 --> 00:47:43.180 majority of the members of these organizations first of all the american industrial hygiene 738 00:47:43.180 --> 00:47:47.460 association is made up of industrial hygienists but the industrial medical 739 00:47:47.460 --> 00:47:48.600 association and its 740 00:47:48.600 --> 00:47:54.420 successor organizations have a balance of both full 741 00:47:54.420 --> 00:47:58.280 -time and part-time members and the 3300 742 00:47:58.280 --> 00:48:01.980 members i think is essentially a meaningless number until you identify those which were 743 00:48:01.980 --> 00:48:06.580 full-time and those which were part-time i see so your responses were reference to 744 00:48:06.580 --> 00:48:07.580 full-time 745 00:48:07.180 --> 00:48:11.380 Biomedical dragon in the sense of your questions about Johns-Manville's medical director. 746 00:48:11.520 --> 00:48:14.060 Yes, okay now doctor do you 747 00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:16.840 I'd like for you to take a look at 748 00:48:17.380 --> 00:48:18.380 exhibit 749 00:48:17.700 --> 00:48:18.860 K-15 750 00:48:18.860 --> 00:48:20.820 now with 751 00:48:28.220 --> 00:48:29.220 respect to exhibit 752 00:48:30.060 --> 00:48:31.360 K for K 753 00:48:32.120 --> 00:48:36.960 14 the previous exhibit at least by 1956 there were 3,300 754 00:48:37.840 --> 00:48:42.180 Persons physicians engaged in some form of industrial medical practice. 755 00:48:42.260 --> 00:48:43.260 Do you agree with that? 756 00:48:42.900 --> 00:48:46.260 There were 3,300 physicians who belonged to the association. 757 00:48:46.540 --> 00:48:47.540 I see. 758 00:48:47.460 --> 00:48:49.480 Okay, do you know what the criteria for membership was? 759 00:48:49.800 --> 00:48:51.220 The ability to pay the dues. 760 00:48:51.400 --> 00:48:52.400 All right, sir. 761 00:48:52.180 --> 00:48:53.180 You don't know? 762 00:48:53.220 --> 00:48:57.300 Doctor, are you suggesting to the jury that those gentlemen, the 3,300 members of the 763 00:48:57.300 --> 00:49:03.000 American Industrial Medicine Association, were members just by virtue of their pay and 764 00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:04.000 their dues? 765 00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:05.100 Well, their interest in the field. 766 00:49:05.240 --> 00:49:06.240 All right. 767 00:49:05.700 --> 00:49:09.720 So there were 3,300 people who were interested enough in industrial medicine in 768 00:49:09.720 --> 00:49:10.920 1956 to at 769 00:49:10.920 --> 00:49:11.920 least pay their dues? 770 00:49:11.600 --> 00:49:17.600 yes sir all right now if you would sir uh i believe that 771 00:49:17.600 --> 00:49:21.240 exhibit uh 15 is purports to be 772 00:49:21.240 --> 00:49:26.280 volume one of the journal of industrial hygiene yes sir are you familiar with the 773 00:49:26.280 --> 00:49:27.280 journal of 774 00:49:26.640 --> 00:49:30.480 industrial hygiene it's since changed its name but it's successors yes all right 775 00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:31.480 what's the 776 00:49:31.260 --> 00:49:36.060 the president of the american journal of industrial hygiene i think uh american 777 00:49:36.800 --> 00:49:40.440 have an american in it i think is it not the archives of environmental health 778 00:49:40.440 --> 00:49:44.060 It might be, but at least it's changed its name. 779 00:49:44.280 --> 00:49:46.600 And what's the date this first issue was published? 780 00:49:46.880 --> 00:49:52.400 Doctor, I believe that we're talking about Exhibit 15, 781 00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:57.060 the Journal of Industrial Hygiene, Volume 1, May 1919. 782 00:49:57.500 --> 00:49:58.500 Right. 783 00:49:58.160 --> 00:50:02.240 About 60 years ago, if my math is correct. 784 00:50:02.520 --> 00:50:03.520 Right. 785 00:50:03.120 --> 00:50:07.960 Now, page one of that journal is an article by Harry E. 786 00:50:07.980 --> 00:50:08.980 Mock, 787 00:50:08.360 --> 00:50:13.520 Lieutenant Colonel United States of America Office of the Surgeon General you see 788 00:50:13.520 --> 00:50:14.660 that yes sir all 789 00:50:14.660 --> 00:50:20.820 right now do you see that he's formerly chief surgeon of Sears Roebuck yes sir okay doctor 790 00:50:23.180 --> 00:50:26.320 on page one you see where dr. 791 00:50:26.520 --> 00:50:29.480 mark writes in the last decade has witnessed the birth of a 792 00:50:29.480 --> 00:50:34.120 new specialty in the medical profession industrial medicine and surgery yes sir is 793 00:50:34.120 --> 00:50:35.120 that complete with 794 00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:40.340 your understanding of when this specialty developed 1910 or so no i think 795 00:50:40.340 --> 00:50:42.540 the specialty developed with 796 00:50:42.540 --> 00:50:48.120 the recognition of it as a specialty in terms of official residency 797 00:50:48.120 --> 00:50:50.440 training a prescribed program 798 00:50:50.440 --> 00:50:55.940 for certification as a specialist because in 1919 you only had to do this to 799 00:50:55.940 --> 00:50:57.340 certify yourself as a 800 00:50:57.340 --> 00:51:01.880 specialist to say i am a specialist in it all right well now doctor when was the 801 00:51:01.880 --> 00:51:02.880 board a 802 00:51:02.240 --> 00:51:06.760 specialty for occupational preventive medicine created i don't remember but it was 803 00:51:06.760 --> 00:51:07.760 well after 804 00:51:07.220 --> 00:51:12.380 1919 and i could get the dates how about 1948 could be all right well i'm going to 805 00:51:12.380 --> 00:51:13.380 show you 806 00:51:12.680 --> 00:51:17.140 a document in a minute maybe that'll refresh your recollection sure now doctor uh 807 00:51:17.140 --> 00:51:19.260 do you see on page 808 00:51:19.260 --> 00:51:24.060 one further down where it's bracketed and the author says it meaning the practice 809 00:51:24.060 --> 00:51:25.060 of industrial 810 00:51:24.520 --> 00:51:29.660 medicine surgery involves the prevention of disease and accidents among the entire group 811 00:51:29.660 --> 00:51:35.620 of employees yes sir all right and do you see where it goes on 812 00:51:35.620 --> 00:51:37.380 to talk about examination of 813 00:51:37.380 --> 00:51:41.140 the hazards of each occupation yes sir all right oh 814 00:51:41.140 --> 00:51:46.960 now doctor does that comport or does that agree 815 00:51:46.960 --> 00:51:52.600 with your understanding of the practice of industrial medicine in 1919 it 816 00:51:52.600 --> 00:51:53.600 certainly is 817 00:51:53.360 --> 00:51:59.020 dr moxon yes sir all right now look over on page two if you don't mind 818 00:51:59.020 --> 00:52:01.840 you see in the uh the 819 00:52:01.840 --> 00:52:06.080 bracketed part in the first major paragraph would you read that please from a 820 00:52:06.080 --> 00:52:07.760 specialty known only 821 00:52:07.760 --> 00:52:12.340 to a few hundred physicians and whose value is recognized only by those industries employing 822 00:52:12.340 --> 00:52:17.080 medical services it rapidly became a measure in the national preparedness program 823 00:52:17.080 --> 00:52:18.360 today the 824 00:52:18.360 --> 00:52:21.680 language of the industrial physician is spoken familiarly by thousands of 825 00:52:21.680 --> 00:52:22.740 physicians and laymen 826 00:52:22.740 --> 00:52:27.120 Now, Doctor, does that agree with your understanding of the number of people 827 00:52:27.120 --> 00:52:29.320 practicing industrial medicine in 1919? 828 00:52:30.580 --> 00:52:37.080 No, what it does is say that the subject was becoming a matter of interest and awareness. 829 00:52:37.320 --> 00:52:38.320 All right. 830 00:52:40.780 --> 00:52:43.960 Now, Doctor, do you see on page two in the second column? 831 00:52:44.160 --> 00:52:45.160 Yeah. 832 00:52:44.560 --> 00:52:48.520 You see where Dr. Mock says today, talking about industrial medicine, 833 00:52:48.520 --> 00:52:53.220 It is receiving the greatest attention from physicians industrial engineers social 834 00:52:53.220 --> 00:52:54.940 workers and employers in general 835 00:52:54.940 --> 00:52:59.620 Medical schools and engineering schools are teaching students various phases of 836 00:52:59.620 --> 00:53:01.860 industrial medicine and surgery. Do you see that? Yes 837 00:53:01.860 --> 00:53:07.520 Does that agree with your understanding of when occupational 838 00:53:07.520 --> 00:53:09.800 medicine began being taught in medical school 839 00:53:09.800 --> 00:53:13.080 No, and more than that, it doesn't agree with the opinion of the American 840 00:53:13.080 --> 00:53:16.560 Association of Medical Colleges or other people as well. All right, sir 841 00:53:17.460 --> 00:53:23.400 well we'll get to that in just a second now doctor uh on 842 00:53:23.400 --> 00:53:27.700 page three do you at the bottom 843 00:53:27.700 --> 00:53:32.360 do you see uh some discussion of the committee on factories all 844 00:53:33.700 --> 00:53:36.440 right do you recognize the name 845 00:53:36.440 --> 00:53:41.750 theodore sacks i don't see his name here on the third line sir 846 00:53:41.750 --> 00:53:44.510 says the committee on factories 847 00:53:44.510 --> 00:53:48.110 of the Chicago Tuberculosis Institute, composed of Drs. 848 00:53:48.110 --> 00:53:50.630 Britton, Sachs, and Henry Fable. 849 00:53:50.770 --> 00:53:52.330 No, I don't know Dr. Sachs. 850 00:53:52.370 --> 00:53:55.610 All right. You don't know of his work on threshold limit values? 851 00:53:56.170 --> 00:53:57.810 I don't know Dr. Sachs, no. 852 00:53:57.890 --> 00:54:03.370 All right. Now, doctor, on page 4 853 00:54:03.370 --> 00:54:06.850 in the second sentence, do you see the name Dr. 854 00:54:07.010 --> 00:54:08.010 Alice Hamilton? 855 00:54:07.850 --> 00:54:08.850 Yes. 856 00:54:08.310 --> 00:54:09.310 Do you know who she is? 857 00:54:09.370 --> 00:54:10.370 Yes. 858 00:54:09.550 --> 00:54:13.610 all right was she not co-author of a textbook on 859 00:54:13.610 --> 00:54:16.930 occupational diseases with Dr. 860 00:54:17.070 --> 00:54:18.230 Harriet Hardy yes 861 00:54:18.230 --> 00:54:23.910 okay you recognize her name yes sir so she was practicing occupational medicine at 862 00:54:23.910 --> 00:54:24.910 least back 863 00:54:24.310 --> 00:54:30.130 in 1919 yes I recognize the parents of the area one of the parents 864 00:54:30.130 --> 00:54:32.830 she was one of the Titans one 865 00:54:32.830 --> 00:54:38.250 of the parents of the area yes all right now doctor do you see in the second uh 866 00:54:38.250 --> 00:54:39.390 column of uh 867 00:54:39.390 --> 00:54:44.290 page four a discussion of the american public health association yes sir would you 868 00:54:44.290 --> 00:54:45.290 read that 869 00:54:44.630 --> 00:54:50.390 please in the american public health association doctors w.a evans e.t fisk alice 870 00:54:50.390 --> 00:54:51.390 hamilton e.r 871 00:54:51.190 --> 00:54:56.010 hayhurst and b.s warren with some 50 other physicians recognizing the influence of this 872 00:54:56.010 --> 00:54:59.870 form of public health work formed the section on industrial hygiene and that 873 00:54:59.870 --> 00:55:00.890 organization during 874 00:55:00.890 --> 00:55:06.010 the fall of 1914 now tell the jury what the american public health association is 875 00:55:06.010 --> 00:55:07.010 it's an 876 00:55:06.610 --> 00:55:11.350 association which is concerned with with public health the membership is made up of 877 00:55:11.350 --> 00:55:13.070 a broad array 878 00:55:13.070 --> 00:55:18.130 of professionals and non-professionals all right doctor does what dr mock says 879 00:55:18.130 --> 00:55:19.130 about the formation 880 00:55:19.110 --> 00:55:23.290 of the section on industrial hygiene of the american public health association 881 00:55:23.290 --> 00:55:24.290 agree with 882 00:55:23.910 --> 00:55:28.550 your understanding of when it was created it does now i didn't know it was created 883 00:55:28.550 --> 00:55:29.790 in 1914 exact 884 00:55:29.790 --> 00:55:35.310 time I know was created many many many years ago over 60 years ago anyway now 885 00:55:35.310 --> 00:55:40.190 doctor will you look at the bottom part of phase four please 886 00:55:40.190 --> 00:55:42.990 yes sir all right 887 00:55:42.990 --> 00:55:48.110 and would you read the Senate starting with but public recognition but public 888 00:55:48.110 --> 00:55:51.870 recognition of Bruce specialty of industrial medicine was given in 1915 by 889 00:55:51.870 --> 00:55:56.150 this association in the annual meeting of last year the preventive medical 890 00:55:56.150 --> 00:55:59.790 section of the American Medical Association, Dr. Otto P. Geyer, chairman, 891 00:55:59.910 --> 00:56:03.790 had a symposium on industrial hygiene. Since then, industrial medicine and 892 00:56:03.790 --> 00:56:07.330 surgery has had a place on annual programs of that section. On every annual 893 00:56:07.330 --> 00:56:10.690 program of that section, is that correct? On every annual program of that section. 894 00:56:10.750 --> 00:56:11.750 Have you 895 00:56:10.970 --> 00:56:15.110 attended any meetings of the preventive medicine section of the American Medical 896 00:56:15.110 --> 00:56:19.170 Association? I have. Did you attend any back when you were in medical school or 897 00:56:19.170 --> 00:56:23.950 right after you graduated? No. So you don't know whether or not you ever 898 00:56:23.950 --> 00:56:28.450 attended any of the annual symposiums on occupational medicine not only did i attend 899 00:56:28.450 --> 00:56:33.150 but a diligent review of all the programs will see that i participated as a a 900 00:56:33.150 --> 00:56:34.450 speaker in some all 901 00:56:34.450 --> 00:56:40.360 right how much time do you have i'm advised dr cohen we're about out 902 00:56:40.360 --> 00:56:41.360 of time on this tape 903 00:56:52.710 --> 00:56:58.490 we were discussing uh k uh 15 a 1919 medical 904 00:56:58.490 --> 00:57:01.970 article in a medical journal is that correct 905 00:57:01.970 --> 00:57:07.790 yes sir now industrial hygiene yes have you and i believe that that's the official 906 00:57:07.790 --> 00:57:08.950 uh magazine of 907 00:57:08.950 --> 00:57:12.830 that uh organization that we were talking about of industrial physicians and 908 00:57:12.830 --> 00:57:13.830 surgeons isn't that 909 00:57:13.510 --> 00:57:19.050 correct no the american industrial hygiene association no sir the american industrial 910 00:57:19.050 --> 00:57:24.190 medicine the at this time industrial medical association yes sir all right now you 911 00:57:24.190 --> 00:57:25.190 see on 912 00:57:24.570 --> 00:57:27.230 page five sir are you with me yes sir 913 00:57:32.130 --> 00:57:35.370 had you ever heard before today of the american association of 914 00:57:35.370 --> 00:57:40.090 industrial physicians and surgeons yeah i had yes all right and would you read to 915 00:57:40.090 --> 00:57:42.010 the uh for me what 916 00:57:42.010 --> 00:57:47.290 it says about that association starts with the incorporation i'm going to object to 917 00:57:47.290 --> 00:57:48.290 the form of 918 00:57:47.730 --> 00:57:50.650 the question let's model if you want to dress you read it and ask him if he agrees 919 00:57:50.650 --> 00:57:51.650 with it rather 920 00:57:51.210 --> 00:57:57.680 than the doctor well i prefer to let the doctor read go ahead doctor starts the incorporation 921 00:57:57.680 --> 00:58:03.460 papers i'm looking for it on page five right the incorporation paper show 125 922 00:58:03.460 --> 00:58:05.040 physicians and 923 00:58:05.040 --> 00:58:10.560 surgeons as charter members of this organization its aims have been to simulate 924 00:58:10.560 --> 00:58:11.620 scientific study 925 00:58:11.620 --> 00:58:15.700 and research in all branches of the industrial medicine to stimulate industries to 926 00:58:15.700 --> 00:58:16.700 adopt a 927 00:58:16.280 --> 00:58:20.220 comprehensive health service and to raise the standards of physicians engaged in industrial 928 00:58:20.220 --> 00:58:25.180 practice all right sir now you've expressed some knowledge of that organization is 929 00:58:25.180 --> 00:58:26.180 that correct i 930 00:58:25.720 --> 00:58:29.560 was aware of it that's all i said i was did you know that it was founded back in 931 00:58:29.560 --> 00:58:30.940 1916 i did not 932 00:58:30.940 --> 00:58:36.780 did you know that it had 125 doctors as charter members I did not all right now 933 00:58:36.780 --> 00:58:40.020 do you see down further in the Senate's where it lists the number of doctors 934 00:58:40.020 --> 00:58:44.660 that it had it says that present this organization has approximately 600 935 00:58:44.660 --> 00:58:50.240 members and this document k-15 was written in 1919 all 936 00:58:50.240 --> 00:58:52.040 right but I would 937 00:58:52.040 --> 00:58:57.620 reiterate that that membership is not synonymous with being a full-time 938 00:58:57.620 --> 00:59:03.580 corporate position i understand doctor good now uh do you see uh with 939 00:59:03.580 --> 00:59:04.720 respect to the united states 940 00:59:04.720 --> 00:59:10.580 public health service yes sir okay do you see where they mentioned dr lanza who 941 00:59:10.580 --> 00:59:11.580 wrote that 942 00:59:10.940 --> 00:59:16.640 1938 textbook right do you do you see where the united states public health 943 00:59:16.640 --> 00:59:17.640 service had 944 00:59:17.300 --> 00:59:20.840 investigated industries other than the aspects since by 1919. 945 00:59:21.260 --> 00:59:23.020 yes sir okay now 946 00:59:26.900 --> 00:59:28.220 Now, Doctor, 947 00:59:34.640 --> 00:59:37.540 I'm going to hand you Exhibit K-16. 948 00:59:44.390 --> 00:59:47.530 Mr. Motley, if you're going through a number of exhibits in this fashion, 949 00:59:47.650 --> 00:59:51.650 can we have a continuing objection to them and save interrupting you as you go along? 950 00:59:51.890 --> 00:59:52.890 Oh, certainly. 951 00:59:55.500 --> 00:59:59.960 Now, Doctor, what is the title of that particular document? 952 01:00:00.460 --> 01:00:01.900 Introduction to Industrial Medicine. 953 01:00:03.700 --> 01:00:05.040 Introduction to Industrial Medicine. 954 01:00:05.100 --> 01:00:06.480 Did you see a year that it was published? 955 01:00:06.720 --> 01:00:07.720 1947. 956 01:00:08.080 --> 01:00:09.080 1947. 957 01:00:08.820 --> 01:00:10.600 Will you turn to the bibliography, sir? 958 01:00:12.760 --> 01:00:18.000 Yes, sir. How many pages of references does that textbook cite on industrial 959 01:00:18.000 --> 01:00:19.940 medicine in 1947? 960 01:00:21.740 --> 01:00:27.620 One, two, three, four, times three and a 961 01:00:27.620 --> 01:00:32.660 half, seven. Seven pages of reference on industrial medicine and that textbook was 962 01:00:32.660 --> 01:00:33.680 published in 1947. 963 01:00:33.680 --> 01:00:39.660 47. I find that not at all surprising. We've been reviewing literature and been discussing 964 01:00:40.900 --> 01:00:45.900 reports of occupational situations. Okay, now, doctor, 965 01:00:46.000 --> 01:00:47.860 turning to another subject, 966 01:00:51.730 --> 01:00:57.360 I believe you stated on previous occasions that there was not a single department of 967 01:00:57.360 --> 01:01:00.980 occupational medicine in the United States in 1950. Is that correct? 968 01:01:01.200 --> 01:01:02.200 That's correct. 969 01:01:01.800 --> 01:01:06.920 There have been divisions of occupational medicine, but not departments. Okay, and did 970 01:01:06.920 --> 01:01:12.320 you also state on friday that occupational medicine was not taught and that you would 971 01:01:12.320 --> 01:01:16.920 have been surprised to learn that there were more than one or two courses on 972 01:01:16.920 --> 01:01:17.920 occupational medicine 973 01:01:17.780 --> 01:01:23.700 taught in the entire country in 1950 yeah okay now doctor uh 974 01:01:23.700 --> 01:01:25.000 do you teach at the university of 975 01:01:25.000 --> 01:01:28.060 colorado yes okay well 976 01:01:44.860 --> 01:01:50.580 dr uh Kotin does uh exhibit k 977 01:01:50.580 --> 01:01:54.560 -17 appear to be a the announcement 978 01:01:54.560 --> 01:01:58.880 of the school of medicine for the university of colorado in denver colorado yes sir 979 01:01:58.880 --> 01:01:59.880 is that where 980 01:01:59.560 --> 01:02:04.440 you teach now yes sir okay do you see uh doctor over on uh 981 01:02:04.440 --> 01:02:09.100 page 30. 982 01:02:09.540 --> 01:02:13.810 yes you see course number 150 983 01:02:13.810 --> 01:02:19.410 yes sir does that read public health applications of microbiology and the 984 01:02:19.410 --> 01:02:25.410 problems of public health epidemiology and preventive medicine yes of course 985 01:02:25.410 --> 01:02:29.350 and it they taught those medical students that for 40 hours did you see 986 01:02:29.350 --> 01:02:34.970 that they sure did with virtually 39.9 of the hours devoted to principles of 987 01:02:34.970 --> 01:02:39.250 infectious disease as they would be in 1931 all right do you see that in there 988 01:02:39.250 --> 01:02:43.430 there, sir? Yeah, principles and applications of microbiology. 989 01:02:43.430 --> 01:02:44.690 That's the study of diseases 990 01:02:44.690 --> 01:02:48.690 caused by infectious agents. Okay, well, you look at course number 153. 991 01:02:48.790 --> 01:02:50.010 Yes, sir. All right, 992 01:02:50.050 --> 01:02:54.830 do you see the course taught medical students at the school where you teach back in 993 01:02:54.830 --> 01:02:56.190 1931 was 994 01:02:56.190 --> 01:03:01.130 called industrial hygiene? It was a free elective for seniors, and I think the 995 01:03:01.130 --> 01:03:02.130 offering of the 996 01:03:02.050 --> 01:03:07.890 course in terms of its actual participation by students is is uh are 997 01:03:07.890 --> 01:03:08.950 entirely different things 998 01:03:09.380 --> 01:03:15.110 so that there was no structured required course of students at the university 999 01:03:15.110 --> 01:03:16.110 of colorado 1000 01:03:16.600 --> 01:03:21.930 in industrial hygiene it was an elective not a mandated course we'll get to that in 1001 01:03:21.930 --> 01:03:22.930 a second okay 1002 01:03:22.550 --> 01:03:27.030 Okay. Now, Doctor, if you look at number 18, 1003 01:03:27.530 --> 01:03:32.170 is that also a bulletin of the University of Colorado? 1004 01:03:32.610 --> 01:03:33.610 Yes, sir. 1005 01:03:33.590 --> 01:03:35.270 And it's dated 1948. 1006 01:03:35.570 --> 01:03:36.570 Yes, sir. 1007 01:03:36.370 --> 01:03:40.790 All right. Now, if you will, please, 1008 01:03:45.960 --> 01:03:49.940 sir, over at page 9. 1009 01:03:50.300 --> 01:03:51.300 Yes, sir. 1010 01:03:54.480 --> 01:04:00.460 Now, not only were there courses taught in industrial medicine 1011 01:04:00.460 --> 01:04:02.720 at the University of Colorado in 1948, 1012 01:04:03.240 --> 01:04:06.700 there was an entire division of industrial medicine, wasn't there, Doctor? 1013 01:04:06.840 --> 01:04:09.980 Oh, yes. I've said there were divisions of industrial medicine. There were no departments. 1014 01:04:10.300 --> 01:04:15.740 Oh, excuse me. And would you read what the bulletin says about the division of 1015 01:04:15.740 --> 01:04:16.740 industrial medicine 1016 01:04:16.440 --> 01:04:18.500 as opposed to the department of industrial medicine? 1017 01:04:18.500 --> 01:04:23.060 The laboratory was organized in 1939 under the direction of Dr. 1018 01:04:23.940 --> 01:04:26.740 James J. Waring and Mr. Donald Cumming. 1019 01:04:26.760 --> 01:04:27.760 Do you know Mr. Cumming? 1020 01:04:27.720 --> 01:04:28.720 No, sir, I don't. 1021 01:04:28.560 --> 01:04:32.440 You didn't know that he collaborated with Dr. Gardner at Saranac Laboratory on the 1022 01:04:32.440 --> 01:04:33.440 asbestos form? 1023 01:04:33.220 --> 01:04:36.840 I'm sure that there are hundreds of people that collaborated with Dr. Gardner that 1024 01:04:36.840 --> 01:04:37.840 I don't know. 1025 01:04:38.600 --> 01:04:41.840 Excuse me, doctor, I object to the policy question on the grounds that... 1026 01:04:44.560 --> 01:04:45.560 Okay. 1027 01:04:45.440 --> 01:04:47.400 Now, doctor... 1028 01:04:52.840 --> 01:04:58.580 now if you look on page 21 sir yes sir in addition to 1029 01:04:58.580 --> 01:05:01.120 uh having a division of industrial medicine 1030 01:05:01.120 --> 01:05:06.800 did they not also have a division of industrial hygiene i'm looking for at the 1031 01:05:06.800 --> 01:05:07.800 bottom of page 21 1032 01:05:07.640 --> 01:05:13.640 yes sir so at the university of colorado in 1948 they had a division of 1033 01:05:13.640 --> 01:05:14.940 industrial medicine and a 1034 01:05:14.940 --> 01:05:19.680 division of industrial hygiene is that correct 1948 or 49 that wouldn't surprise me 1035 01:05:19.680 --> 01:05:20.680 oh that 1036 01:05:20.380 --> 01:05:26.200 wasn't surprised all right doctor didn't you testify then in 1950 1037 01:05:26.200 --> 01:05:27.200 there was not a 1038 01:05:26.940 --> 01:05:29.960 single Department of Occupational Medicine in the United States I'm still 1039 01:05:29.960 --> 01:05:34.320 looking for one I haven't seen them come to that and that there weren't any 1040 01:05:34.320 --> 01:05:37.620 required I asked the witness questions you're free to do so but you're not free 1041 01:05:37.620 --> 01:05:43.160 to argue with the witness or comment doctor and you also testified 1042 01:05:43.160 --> 01:05:44.160 that there 1043 01:05:43.820 --> 01:05:49.660 weren't any required courses is that correct but I'm aware yes where did you 1044 01:05:49.660 --> 01:05:54.880 go to the university of illinois school of medicine 1934 35 to 39 1045 01:05:54.880 --> 01:05:57.500 35 to 39 yes sir and 1046 01:05:57.500 --> 01:06:00.820 you went to medical school i sure did and you took all the required courses that 1047 01:06:00.820 --> 01:06:01.820 they required 1048 01:06:01.240 --> 01:06:05.980 i was granted the degree of doctor of medicine all right now 1049 01:06:05.980 --> 01:06:08.700 doctor uh will 1050 01:06:13.400 --> 01:06:14.500 you look please sir 1051 01:06:14.500 --> 01:06:19.160 at page 24, oops, didn't give it to you. Excuse me. 1052 01:06:22.620 --> 01:06:26.640 19. What is it? 1053 01:06:27.720 --> 01:06:29.620 It's the University of Colorado 1054 01:06:30.220 --> 01:06:35.780 School of Medicine. Now, doctor, is this not the bulletin for the 1055 01:06:35.780 --> 01:06:38.120 University of Colorado School 1056 01:06:38.120 --> 01:06:41.540 of Medicine where you teach for 1950? See that in the front? 1057 01:06:41.600 --> 01:06:43.700 Yes, sir. All right, look on page 24. 1058 01:06:43.700 --> 01:06:48.840 for yes sir doctor don't you see where not only did the university of colorado 1059 01:06:48.840 --> 01:06:49.840 where you teach 1060 01:06:50.140 --> 01:06:56.120 have a division of industrial medicine in 1950 but also a degree a 1061 01:06:56.120 --> 01:06:57.920 doctor of science in industrial 1062 01:06:57.920 --> 01:07:01.640 medicine in 1950. do you see that yes sir now 1063 01:07:05.860 --> 01:07:11.560 doctor uh don't you know that dr 1064 01:07:11.560 --> 01:07:12.620 anthony lanza 1065 01:07:12.620 --> 01:07:16.980 also had a school of industrial medicine at new york university beginning in the 1066 01:07:16.980 --> 01:07:18.160 late 1940s i 1067 01:07:18.160 --> 01:07:23.860 have referred to that yes sir and and commented on its uniqueness yes number 1068 01:07:39.440 --> 01:07:40.760 20 doctor now 1069 01:07:48.350 --> 01:07:49.350 so will 1070 01:07:48.670 --> 01:07:52.230 you identify what you're handing to the doctor when you hand it to him yes sir i 1071 01:07:52.230 --> 01:07:53.230 will i appreciate 1072 01:07:52.810 --> 01:07:59.510 that mr wilson number 20 is the proceedings of the occupational disease symposium northwestern 1073 01:07:59.510 --> 01:08:04.930 university medical school department of industrial medicine september 1938 do you 1074 01:08:04.930 --> 01:08:05.930 see that yes sir 1075 01:08:05.770 --> 01:08:11.610 all right so at least in 1938 the northwestern university medical school 1076 01:08:11.610 --> 01:08:12.610 had a department of 1077 01:08:12.450 --> 01:08:15.570 industrial medicine isn't that right yes sir and that's a department that ain't a division 1078 01:08:15.570 --> 01:08:21.270 all right now doctor uh look at page two if you don't mind you 1079 01:08:32.280 --> 01:08:34.040 see where it's marked 1080 01:08:34.040 --> 01:08:39.800 yes it's 1928 yes would you read that please the american medical directory has tabulated 1081 01:08:39.800 --> 01:08:44.880 the number of industrial surgeons limiting practice to industrial work and those giving 1082 01:08:44.880 --> 01:08:50.080 a special attention to industrial practice in a 10-year period the practitioners in 1083 01:08:50.080 --> 01:08:51.080 both these 1084 01:08:50.460 --> 01:08:55.440 classifications have doubled the number all right thank you well that doesn't 1085 01:08:55.440 --> 01:08:56.440 surprise me at all 1086 01:08:56.300 --> 01:09:01.360 that's right no the industry is growing that industry was growing and consequently 1087 01:09:01.360 --> 01:09:02.760 the need 1088 01:09:02.760 --> 01:09:07.720 for physicians to take care of persons injured in the workplace or requiring 1089 01:09:07.720 --> 01:09:08.720 medical care of 1090 01:09:08.600 --> 01:09:13.880 all other kinds I think there's a logical parallel in availability of service to 1091 01:09:13.880 --> 01:09:14.880 parallel the 1092 01:09:14.540 --> 01:09:19.220 increase in industry okay now doctor uh turn over to page three if you will yes sir 1093 01:09:19.220 --> 01:09:21.760 look at the 1094 01:09:21.760 --> 01:09:23.400 second column yes 1095 01:09:28.460 --> 01:09:32.000 sir do you see where it's reported the results of a survey of medical 1096 01:09:32.000 --> 01:09:36.840 schools yes all right would you read that please shuford and reported in the 1097 01:09:36.840 --> 01:09:37.840 monthly labor review 1098 01:09:37.740 --> 01:09:42.000 for may 1920 she found that there were 30 medical colleges offering some 1099 01:09:42.000 --> 01:09:43.240 instruction in vocational 1100 01:09:43.240 --> 01:09:48.460 hygiene some instruction could be as much as an hour in a four-year curriculum i 1101 01:09:48.460 --> 01:09:49.460 don't know what 1102 01:09:48.980 --> 01:09:52.200 some instruction means would you read on and maybe you'll find out okay of these 1103 01:09:52.200 --> 01:09:53.220 two courses leading 1104 01:09:53.220 --> 01:09:57.340 to certification on satisfactory completion offered limited amounts of work in the curriculum 1105 01:09:57.900 --> 01:10:01.740 leading to the md degree four offered some instructions leading to one to four degrees 1106 01:10:01.740 --> 01:10:05.740 in public health and 15 offered limited postgraduate instructions in public health 1107 01:10:05.740 --> 01:10:11.240 industrial content not stated all right now doctor on page uh the bottom of page 1108 01:10:11.240 --> 01:10:12.240 three to the report 1109 01:10:12.220 --> 01:10:15.800 a more recent uh survey that is before 1938. 1110 01:10:16.320 --> 01:10:18.360 the next analysis of schools offering training 1111 01:10:18.360 --> 01:10:21.660 and industrial hygiene was conducted by Bristol published in the Journal of the 1112 01:10:21.660 --> 01:10:26.920 AMA March 1934 some degree of improvement had occurred 1113 01:10:26.920 --> 01:10:28.880 13 schools of 1114 01:10:28.880 --> 01:10:32.840 medicine the public health gave separate courses in industrial hygiene 24 1115 01:10:32.840 --> 01:10:36.060 assigned one or more lectures to the subject in general public health or 1116 01:10:36.060 --> 01:10:40.300 hygiene courses and 18 gave only brief attention in general public health or 1117 01:10:40.300 --> 01:10:44.640 hygiene courses 21 the medical schools apparently gave no specific instruction 1118 01:10:44.640 --> 01:10:48.940 of all. Fifteen schools of medicine and public health reported field trips to 1119 01:10:48.940 --> 01:10:53.140 industrial plants as part of the instruction in industrial hygiene. Well, 1120 01:10:53.240 --> 01:10:58.520 the lumping of schools of medicine and schools of public health really makes 1121 01:10:58.520 --> 01:11:01.660 that sentence uninterpretable. 1122 01:11:01.760 --> 01:11:04.340 Yes, sir. Now, let's see if you can interpret the 1123 01:11:04.340 --> 01:11:08.860 first part of column two. Now, do you see in there, doctor, where they talk about 1124 01:11:08.860 --> 01:11:12.180 your alma mater, the University of Illinois, and what was required for 1125 01:11:12.180 --> 01:11:15.700 students at the university of illinois while you were there yes i would you read 1126 01:11:15.700 --> 01:11:16.700 that during the 1127 01:11:16.260 --> 01:11:21.320 academic year 37 to 38 10 schools gave more than six hours of organized instruction industrial 1128 01:11:21.320 --> 01:11:26.280 hygiene as part of the required instruction and the magnitude of time allotted the 1129 01:11:26.280 --> 01:11:27.280 schools rate 1130 01:11:26.780 --> 01:11:31.160 in the following order university of illinois women's medical college university of pittsburgh 1131 01:11:31.780 --> 01:11:37.800 university of ohio northwestern virginia cincinnati jefferson long island and boston 1132 01:11:37.800 --> 01:11:42.320 All right, so did you take the required six hours of industrial hygiene while you 1133 01:11:42.320 --> 01:11:43.320 were at the University of Illinois? 1134 01:11:43.520 --> 01:11:46.160 In the four-year period, I'm sure I was exposed to six hours. 1135 01:11:46.320 --> 01:11:47.320 Thank you. 1136 01:11:51.270 --> 01:11:52.270 Now, I'm 1137 01:11:57.320 --> 01:12:03.860 going to hand you, sir, K-21. 1138 01:12:04.580 --> 01:12:10.150 The K-21 purports to be a 1139 01:12:10.150 --> 01:12:15.770 profile of the United States Public Health Service, 1798 to 1948, 1140 01:12:16.050 --> 01:12:17.710 by Bess Furman, 1141 01:12:17.710 --> 01:12:23.210 the united states department of health education and welfare 1973 1142 01:12:23.210 --> 01:12:25.210 did i read that correctly yes 1143 01:12:25.210 --> 01:12:31.150 sir would you look please sir at 1144 01:12:31.150 --> 01:12:36.930 page 339 yes sir okay would you 1145 01:12:36.930 --> 01:12:39.610 read the third paragraph please 1146 01:12:41.010 --> 01:12:44.790 on the home front the home front public health service under surgeon general 1147 01:12:44.790 --> 01:12:49.290 cumming was becoming a leading factor in the application of epidemiology as a 1148 01:12:49.290 --> 01:12:53.710 practical science in this country all right now doctor would you read down to the 1149 01:12:53.710 --> 01:12:54.710 next to last 1150 01:12:54.470 --> 01:13:00.230 paragraph sentence it was evident it was evident that this had become a subject to 1151 01:13:00.230 --> 01:13:01.230 be taught in 1152 01:13:00.710 --> 01:13:06.630 schools of public health in the autumn of 1919 johns hopkins university parliament maryland 1153 01:13:06.630 --> 01:13:09.970 had established the first school of hygiene and public health in the united states with 1154 01:13:09.970 --> 01:13:14.710 dr william h welts that seasoned consultant of the public health service at its head 1155 01:13:14.710 --> 01:13:19.530 He persuaded Dr. Rupert Blue, then Surgeon General, to detail Dr. 1156 01:13:19.690 --> 01:13:20.690 Wade Hampton Frost 1157 01:13:21.170 --> 01:13:26.210 as resident lecturer in epidemiology as a preliminary to becoming the first in the world 1158 01:13:26.210 --> 01:13:28.370 to hold a university chair in epidemiology. 1159 01:13:28.790 --> 01:13:29.790 All right. 1160 01:13:29.530 --> 01:13:30.530 Thank you, Doc. 1161 01:13:30.350 --> 01:13:32.990 This was in the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health. 1162 01:13:33.250 --> 01:13:35.590 School of Hygiene. 1163 01:13:35.730 --> 01:13:36.730 Hmm? 1164 01:13:36.050 --> 01:13:41.410 Now, I haven't asked Marlon to object to the procedure here because it is not questioning. 1165 01:13:41.450 --> 01:13:42.450 It's simply reading. 1166 01:13:42.590 --> 01:13:44.270 I haven't asked him a question, Mr. Coffey. 1167 01:13:45.990 --> 01:13:48.250 That's exactly what I'm getting ready to do, Mr. Carter. 1168 01:13:48.630 --> 01:13:51.010 Now, Dr. Kotin, prior to you reading this, 1169 01:13:51.090 --> 01:13:52.910 were you aware that the Johns Hopkins University 1170 01:13:52.910 --> 01:13:56.710 had founded a school of hygiene and public health in 1919? 1171 01:13:58.210 --> 01:14:01.150 I can't honestly say that it was founded in 1919, 1172 01:14:01.250 --> 01:14:02.810 but I'm fully aware of the school 1173 01:14:02.810 --> 01:14:05.070 because in the not-too-distant past, 1174 01:14:05.190 --> 01:14:07.310 I was asked if I would be interested in a professorship 1175 01:14:07.310 --> 01:14:09.770 at the Johns Hopkins University School of Hygiene. 1176 01:14:10.130 --> 01:14:12.770 So you weren't aware that it was in existence in 1919? 1177 01:14:12.770 --> 01:14:17.870 I don't remember that it was organized in 1919, of course, but it was around for 1178 01:14:17.870 --> 01:14:20.330 many, many, many years, and perhaps the first, I was aware. 1179 01:14:21.170 --> 01:14:25.750 Now, Dr. Kotin, you taught at the University of Southern California, didn't you? 1180 01:14:25.870 --> 01:14:26.870 Yes, sir. 1181 01:14:26.350 --> 01:14:31.010 And you testified that you had been surprised and amazed if more than one or two 1182 01:14:31.010 --> 01:14:35.250 schools in the country offered courses in industrial medicine, isn't that correct? 1183 01:14:35.510 --> 01:14:36.510 That's correct. 1184 01:14:35.930 --> 01:14:40.890 Now, the truth of the matter is, Dr. Kotin, that they were teaching industrial medicine 1185 01:14:40.890 --> 01:14:44.190 at the University of Southern California the whole time you were there, weren't they? 1186 01:14:44.430 --> 01:14:45.430 Next point. 1187 01:14:45.230 --> 01:14:46.230 No, that was... 1188 01:14:45.930 --> 01:14:48.010 The point, the question around the discharge of medical... 1189 01:14:50.020 --> 01:14:51.160 It was in the curriculum. 1190 01:14:52.200 --> 01:14:56.400 It was not taught to any greater extent than I said that it was. 1191 01:14:57.000 --> 01:15:03.120 That basically, it was being introduced at an ever-accelerating rate into the curriculum 1192 01:15:03.120 --> 01:15:04.720 of medical schools. 1193 01:15:04.720 --> 01:15:10.580 I had a hand in bringing it in and introducing it into the curriculum, so that 1194 01:15:10.580 --> 01:15:11.580 sure it was 1195 01:15:11.120 --> 01:15:16.120 being taught, but it certainly was not what you would pretend 1196 01:15:16.120 --> 01:15:18.700 that it would be, and that 1197 01:15:18.700 --> 01:15:24.260 is an integral part, an indispensable part, and even a substantial minor part of 1198 01:15:24.260 --> 01:15:25.260 the school 1199 01:15:24.600 --> 01:15:25.600 curriculum. 1200 01:15:25.500 --> 01:15:30.920 That is, I think, a full representation of the education in industrial 1201 01:15:30.920 --> 01:15:33.200 medicine in American 1202 01:15:33.200 --> 01:15:37.960 medical colleges during this period now doctor do you remember testifying here 1203 01:15:37.960 --> 01:15:43.920 on Oath Friday when you were asked a question on page 89 yeah were there any 1204 01:15:43.920 --> 01:15:48.700 courses taught in industrial medicine in the 1950s your answer was not that I'm 1205 01:15:48.700 --> 01:15:53.280 aware of again there may have been one or two in the medical school I bet a 1206 01:15:53.280 --> 01:15:57.580 month's salary that there probably was not a course a lecture might have been 1207 01:15:57.580 --> 01:16:01.160 given but not a course you recall that i sure do all right now 1208 01:16:08.910 --> 01:16:11.710 dr Kotin talked 1209 01:16:15.040 --> 01:16:17.520 about the manner 1210 01:16:17.520 --> 01:16:23.080 in which medical information is distributed or disseminated it's a fancy word for 1211 01:16:23.080 --> 01:16:24.080 getting the 1212 01:16:23.780 --> 01:16:28.020 word out isn't it disseminated i don't know what you mean by a fancy word but it's 1213 01:16:28.020 --> 01:16:29.440 what okay it it 1214 01:16:29.440 --> 01:16:34.240 describes what i think the question was directed to now i 1215 01:16:34.240 --> 01:16:37.280 believe you testified that there were 1216 01:16:37.980 --> 01:16:43.300 only two occupational disease specialty journals the journal of occupational 1217 01:16:43.300 --> 01:16:44.320 medicine and the 1218 01:16:44.320 --> 01:16:47.940 british journal of industrial medicine do you recall that no i didn't say they were 1219 01:16:47.940 --> 01:16:48.940 the only 1220 01:16:48.180 --> 01:16:53.820 ones i said they were the only ones i was aware of all right doctor are you 1221 01:16:53.820 --> 01:16:55.720 aware of a publication 1222 01:16:55.720 --> 01:17:01.400 called the archives of environmental health yes sir do you not recall that that journal 1223 01:17:01.400 --> 01:17:05.420 devotes itself to matters of occupational and environmental medicine you asked 1224 01:17:05.420 --> 01:17:06.480 primarily it 1225 01:17:06.480 --> 01:17:12.260 It was environmental medicine that was an integral part of the Archives 1226 01:17:12.260 --> 01:17:13.320 of Environmental Health. 1227 01:17:13.480 --> 01:17:16.640 I think you asked specifically about occupational medicine. 1228 01:17:16.840 --> 01:17:20.700 Now, Doctor, don't you know that the Archives of Environmental Health 1229 01:17:20.700 --> 01:17:23.620 is published by the American Academy of Occupational Medicine? 1230 01:17:23.880 --> 01:17:25.680 Yes, but they have interest beyond that. 1231 01:17:26.020 --> 01:17:29.160 Well, it's called the American Academy of Occupational Medicine. 1232 01:17:29.180 --> 01:17:30.180 Yes, sir. 1233 01:17:29.760 --> 01:17:32.600 And it was founded in 1946, wasn't it? 1234 01:17:34.040 --> 01:17:35.360 If you say so. 1235 01:17:35.600 --> 01:17:36.600 All right. 1236 01:17:36.480 --> 01:17:40.360 and one of their publications is the archives of environmental health yes sir 1237 01:17:40.360 --> 01:17:41.540 beginning in 1946 1238 01:17:41.540 --> 01:17:46.680 isn't that correct yes sir all right and the american occupational medical 1239 01:17:46.680 --> 01:17:47.680 association was 1240 01:17:47.680 --> 01:17:53.600 founded in 1915 what yes sir and the industrial you know answer the question 1241 01:17:53.600 --> 01:17:54.600 if you don't don't 1242 01:17:54.400 --> 01:17:57.740 speculate on the date please well i can show you the dates if you'd like to see him 1243 01:17:57.740 --> 01:17:58.800 Dr. Kotin i have 1244 01:17:58.800 --> 01:18:04.740 if you say so and the industrial hygiene foundation was founded in 1935 what that 1245 01:18:04.740 --> 01:18:05.740 i don't 1246 01:18:05.240 --> 01:18:11.100 all right give me h5 are you familiar with the publication of the industrial hygiene 1247 01:18:11.100 --> 01:18:16.940 foundation called the industrial hygiene digest i am yes sir and is that not uh 1248 01:18:16.940 --> 01:18:17.940 let 1249 01:18:22.880 --> 01:18:23.880 me hand you uh 1250 01:18:24.440 --> 01:18:30.170 k-22 sir which is what k 1251 01:18:30.170 --> 01:18:33.290 -22 purports to be the encyclopedia of associations 1252 01:18:33.290 --> 01:18:37.270 Association, dated 1979. Do you see that? 1253 01:18:38.070 --> 01:18:42.710 Yes, sir. All right. And do you see on the next page 1254 01:18:42.710 --> 01:18:45.930 a list of various associations? Yes, sir. 1255 01:18:46.050 --> 01:18:49.330 And do you see the American Academy of Occupational 1256 01:18:49.330 --> 01:18:52.750 Medicine, founded in 1946? Yes, sir. 1257 01:18:53.290 --> 01:18:56.510 And you see where it lists the publications, the Archives of 1258 01:18:56.510 --> 01:18:59.630 Environmental Health? Yes, sir. And the Journal of Occupational Medicine? 1259 01:18:59.890 --> 01:19:00.890 Yes, sir. And that's the 1260 01:19:00.770 --> 01:19:04.810 one that you are most familiar with the journal of occupational medicine all right 1261 01:19:04.810 --> 01:19:06.810 yes they publish 1262 01:19:06.810 --> 01:19:10.990 both because i think it's the journal of occupational medicine that clearly addresses 1263 01:19:10.990 --> 01:19:16.730 occupational medicine okay the archives of environmental health has a broader scope as 1264 01:19:16.730 --> 01:19:21.530 the title would imply all right and doctor do you see the american occupational 1265 01:19:21.530 --> 01:19:22.730 medical association 1266 01:19:23.810 --> 01:19:29.750 on the next column sir yes sir and it was founded in 1915 yes sir and 1267 01:19:29.750 --> 01:19:31.470 you see that uh its publication 1268 01:19:31.470 --> 01:19:36.830 uh was formally called the american association of industrial physicians and surgeons 1269 01:19:40.800 --> 01:19:43.020 under formally well 1270 01:19:47.630 --> 01:19:50.450 i hadn't asked it yet you have to be patient i'll ask the question 1271 01:19:50.450 --> 01:19:56.030 see the six lines sir at any rate it used to be called yes formerly 1272 01:19:56.030 --> 01:19:57.550 19th american association of 1273 01:19:57.550 --> 01:20:02.890 industry positions now the one that i was interested in was the industrial health foundation 1274 01:20:02.890 --> 01:20:08.890 you see that yes sir and it was founded in 1935 yes sir and you see that 1275 01:20:08.890 --> 01:20:09.890 its publications 1276 01:20:10.250 --> 01:20:15.550 include the industrial hygiene digest yes sir now do you see the next one the occupational 1277 01:20:15.550 --> 01:20:18.910 health institute yes sir founded in 1945. 1278 01:20:19.510 --> 01:20:20.950 yes sir 1279 01:20:20.950 --> 01:20:21.950 Yes, sir. 1280 01:20:23.550 --> 01:20:26.410 You keep reading things through them and you say you see it. 1281 01:20:26.530 --> 01:20:30.570 If you want to ask him a question, propel him to questions with these facts in it 1282 01:20:30.570 --> 01:20:31.930 so we'll know it's in your question. 1283 01:20:32.010 --> 01:20:37.070 To have him read a document, you're trying to have the witness read into evidence 1284 01:20:37.070 --> 01:20:41.030 things that he may have no knowledge of, but you're having him read it through a document. 1285 01:20:41.110 --> 01:20:42.110 I object to that procedure. 1286 01:20:42.830 --> 01:20:44.990 Doctor, do you see the Occupational Health Institute? 1287 01:20:45.370 --> 01:20:46.370 Yes, sir. 1288 01:20:45.870 --> 01:20:47.270 And that it was founded in 1945? 1289 01:20:47.910 --> 01:20:48.910 Yes, sir. 1290 01:20:48.410 --> 01:20:52.790 Now, Doctor, with respect to all of these various organizations, will you agree 1291 01:20:52.790 --> 01:20:58.570 with me that there were more than two journals devoted to occupational medicine 1292 01:20:58.570 --> 01:21:02.670 being circulated in this country since beginning in 1915? 1293 01:21:04.910 --> 01:21:10.050 There were more than two publications, but basically the number of publications and the 1294 01:21:10.050 --> 01:21:14.510 questions originally concerned were the journals that 1295 01:21:17.650 --> 01:21:20.610 were recognized as occupational medical 1296 01:21:20.610 --> 01:21:21.610 journals. 1297 01:21:21.290 --> 01:21:26.450 Clearly the Journal of Occupational Medicine is the one that by its very title 1298 01:21:26.450 --> 01:21:27.830 and by its 1299 01:21:27.830 --> 01:21:31.870 identification of several organizations is the journal that 1300 01:21:31.870 --> 01:21:35.410 purports to contain 1301 01:21:35.410 --> 01:21:38.450 medical information relating to occupation okay 1302 01:21:39.350 --> 01:21:45.230 And I ask if documents K-16 through K-22 are offered for the truth of the matters 1303 01:21:45.230 --> 01:21:46.230 contained therein? 1304 01:21:46.570 --> 01:21:51.190 Well, you can ask, Mr. Coghlan, but I don't believe this is the proper place to be 1305 01:21:51.190 --> 01:21:52.190 debating anything. 1306 01:21:53.230 --> 01:21:54.710 Thank you for the formal questions. 1307 01:21:58.030 --> 01:22:01.530 Now, Dr. Kotin, I've given you K-23. 1308 01:22:01.870 --> 01:22:02.870 Yes, sir. 1309 01:22:02.630 --> 01:22:08.050 And that's the Journal of Industrial Hygiene, January 1926. 1310 01:22:08.290 --> 01:22:09.290 Yes, sir. 1311 01:22:10.070 --> 01:22:14.390 do you recognize the journal of industrial hygiene published by the harvard school of 1312 01:22:14.390 --> 01:22:18.450 public health to be an authoritative and reliable journal yes sir all right is that 1313 01:22:18.450 --> 01:22:19.450 another journal 1314 01:22:19.250 --> 01:22:23.010 that you perhaps couldn't recall which was devoted to occupational medicine 1315 01:22:23.010 --> 01:22:24.010 beginning at least 1316 01:22:23.970 --> 01:22:29.590 in 1926 yes subject to the question uh just a minute dr 1317 01:22:29.590 --> 01:22:32.430 Kotin the council keeps using the term 1318 01:22:32.430 --> 01:22:37.310 industrial hygiene occupational medicine environmental medicine public health interchangeably 1319 01:22:40.600 --> 01:22:42.240 and I don't think they are. 1320 01:22:57.460 --> 01:22:58.620 Now, Dr. 1321 01:23:00.460 --> 01:23:06.890 Kotin, are you familiar with the fact that from time to time various organizations 1322 01:23:06.890 --> 01:23:12.770 Organizations beginning back in the 1920s for example, Saranac laboratory would 1323 01:23:12.770 --> 01:23:14.030 have symposium 1324 01:23:15.250 --> 01:23:17.690 Conferences on occupational diseases. Yes, sir 1325 01:23:19.990 --> 01:23:22.630 Well doctor do you agree to that curve? Yes, sir 1326 01:23:22.630 --> 01:23:27.250 And do you agree that there were conferences on the pneumoconiosis? 1327 01:23:27.850 --> 01:23:31.950 Held in various parts of the world beginning in the 1930s 1328 01:23:33.190 --> 01:23:38.650 there were some held yes sir and pneumoconiosis is a term meaning what diseases 1329 01:23:38.650 --> 01:23:39.850 associated with 1330 01:23:39.850 --> 01:23:42.490 scarring of the lung including asbestos yes sir 1331 01:23:45.750 --> 01:23:48.510 i'm going to object to the form of your question 1332 01:23:48.510 --> 01:23:52.090 that the entrance to be drawn there from was that there were conferences with 1333 01:23:52.090 --> 01:23:53.090 respect to 1334 01:23:52.590 --> 01:23:54.490 asbestosis beginning in the 30s 1335 01:24:00.000 --> 01:24:04.740 doctor i've handed you what purports to be the proceedings of a 1336 01:24:04.740 --> 01:24:10.760 conference concerning effects of dust upon the respiratory system uh held by the industrial 1337 01:24:10.760 --> 01:24:16.720 commission of wisconsin in 1932 do you see that yes sir all right if you would 1338 01:24:16.720 --> 01:24:18.200 sir um 1339 01:24:19.160 --> 01:24:25.160 look at the uh table of contents do you see you recognize 1340 01:24:25.160 --> 01:24:27.320 the names of any of the speakers 1341 01:24:28.020 --> 01:24:32.260 yes sir dr gardner that's the gentleman who was at saranac that we talked about correct 1342 01:24:32.260 --> 01:24:33.260 Yes, sir. 1343 01:24:33.180 --> 01:24:35.560 And you see Mr. Cummings, the man I asked you about? 1344 01:24:35.820 --> 01:24:36.820 Yes, sir. 1345 01:24:36.300 --> 01:24:40.280 And you see where in 1932 he was the assistant director of the Saranac Laboratory? 1346 01:24:40.680 --> 01:24:41.680 Yes. 1347 01:24:41.000 --> 01:24:46.540 Is that the same Mr. Cummings that we talked about in reference to the University 1348 01:24:46.540 --> 01:24:47.540 of Colorado? 1349 01:24:47.340 --> 01:24:50.300 I don't know, but basically he was somebody interested in the study of 1350 01:24:50.300 --> 01:24:52.640 tuberculosis, as the contents indicate here. 1351 01:24:52.860 --> 01:24:53.860 All right. 1352 01:24:53.440 --> 01:24:58.560 And you're not familiar with whether or not he co-authored any works on asbestosis 1353 01:24:58.560 --> 01:24:59.600 with Dr. Gardner? 1354 01:24:59.700 --> 01:25:01.100 I think he has, actually. 1355 01:25:01.300 --> 01:25:02.300 All right. 1356 01:25:02.260 --> 01:25:07.740 and do you see the name of mr bloomfeld yes sir and do you recognize his name 1357 01:25:07.740 --> 01:25:09.460 it's come up earlier 1358 01:25:09.460 --> 01:25:13.640 today yes but do you not recognize him as an authority in the area of industrial 1359 01:25:13.640 --> 01:25:14.640 hygiene in 1360 01:25:14.380 --> 01:25:19.800 the 30s yes sir all right and do you see the name of dr albert e russell surgeon 1361 01:25:19.800 --> 01:25:20.880 united states bureau 1362 01:25:20.880 --> 01:25:25.340 of mines yes sir and did you recognize him as an authority on the dust diseases he 1363 01:25:25.340 --> 01:25:26.340 was searching 1364 01:25:25.760 --> 01:25:31.640 in the u.s bureau now if you turn to page 180 yes 1365 01:25:34.000 --> 01:25:36.520 sir would you read the sentence beginning this 1366 01:25:38.100 --> 01:25:44.160 this is the x-ray of a man who had or has asbestosis his occupation is that of cleaning 1367 01:25:44.160 --> 01:25:48.680 and restoring the asbestos on pipes in one of our government hospitals he had been 1368 01:25:48.680 --> 01:25:49.680 working as 1369 01:25:49.100 --> 01:25:53.960 a trade about six years i think and you will see he has fibrosis of the lung the 1370 01:25:53.960 --> 01:25:54.960 character of the 1371 01:25:54.640 --> 01:25:58.940 fibrosis is quite a bit different from that of granite workers he had disability 1372 01:25:58.940 --> 01:25:59.940 and the 1373 01:25:59.560 --> 01:26:05.420 government compensated him for it now doctor uh a person who cleans 1374 01:26:05.420 --> 01:26:07.420 and restores asbestos on pipes 1375 01:26:07.420 --> 01:26:12.680 is what kind of work they'd be classified as an insulation worker thank you i'll 1376 01:26:14.090 --> 01:26:15.090 check your phone 1377 01:26:14.750 --> 01:26:17.690 and we'll ask your questions on the ground for the reading of the statement 1378 01:26:17.690 --> 01:26:19.350 contained in the 1379 01:26:19.350 --> 01:26:25.310 document is not in any way required to create a foundation to ask the question to 1380 01:26:25.310 --> 01:26:26.310 answer the 1381 01:26:25.810 --> 01:26:29.250 doctor we're simply asking him once again to read the document 1382 01:26:29.250 --> 01:26:30.250 doctor 1383 01:26:30.090 --> 01:26:37.590 will 1384 01:26:42.310 --> 01:26:48.260 you look uh in 1385 01:26:48.260 --> 01:26:50.520 the appendix of this particular document please 1386 01:26:53.200 --> 01:26:58.140 yes do you see the names of the persons who attended the conference concerning the effects 1387 01:26:58.140 --> 01:27:02.060 of dust upon the respiratory system held before the industrial commission of 1388 01:27:02.060 --> 01:27:03.780 wisconsin in 1932 1389 01:27:03.780 --> 01:27:09.000 yes sir all right do you recognize uh any of the names as titans or persons 1390 01:27:09.000 --> 01:27:10.000 involved in 1391 01:27:09.760 --> 01:27:14.320 occupational medicine at the time i object to the form of the question because the document 1392 01:27:14.320 --> 01:27:19.320 has not previously been admitted into evidence authenticated in any way and consequently 1393 01:27:19.320 --> 01:27:23.060 Well, any names appearing therein would be hearsay at this time. 1394 01:27:24.100 --> 01:27:25.100 Go ahead, Doctor. 1395 01:27:25.360 --> 01:27:27.080 Well, I'd have to really look at it. 1396 01:27:27.220 --> 01:27:28.220 Yes, go ahead. Take your time. 1397 01:27:34.080 --> 01:27:39.740 Well, again, I'd have to know 1398 01:27:39.740 --> 01:27:41.060 a lot more before. 1399 01:27:41.440 --> 01:27:44.140 What do you want them as, as persons in the field or titans? 1400 01:27:44.860 --> 01:27:48.220 Well, let's do persons in the field first and go on to titans. 1401 01:27:49.540 --> 01:27:53.060 Well, I recognize the name of Dr. 1402 01:27:53.220 --> 01:27:54.220 Bloomfield, 1403 01:27:57.150 --> 01:27:58.790 Dr. Sappington. What other 1404 01:28:34.630 --> 01:28:35.630 names do I recognize? 1405 01:28:35.710 --> 01:28:38.610 You don't recognize the name of Dr. O.A. Sander. 1406 01:28:42.400 --> 01:28:47.420 We have a master risk here as being an employee of the Employers Mutual. 1407 01:28:48.440 --> 01:28:52.180 Do you not recognize his name in conjunction with the Asbestos Textile Institute? 1408 01:28:53.580 --> 01:28:54.800 It doesn't ring a bell. 1409 01:28:55.160 --> 01:28:59.840 All right. Now, Mr. 1410 01:29:06.110 --> 01:29:07.850 Wilson, do you have my Exhibit K-2? 1411 01:29:26.810 --> 01:29:32.750 Doctor, I'm going to hand you Exhibit K-25, and 1412 01:29:32.750 --> 01:29:34.290 I'll tell you what it purports to be. 1413 01:29:35.490 --> 01:29:41.190 It purports to be a list of the persons who attended various 1414 01:29:41.190 --> 01:29:43.570 symposiums or conferences 1415 01:29:43.570 --> 01:29:46.750 at the Saranac Laboratory beginning in 1952. 1416 01:29:47.330 --> 01:29:50.510 Would you, I think you can see the list of names there. 1417 01:29:50.510 --> 01:29:56.430 you see that seventh saranac symposium yes sir all right do 1418 01:29:56.430 --> 01:29:57.910 you know anything about the seventh 1419 01:29:57.910 --> 01:29:59.990 saranac symposium i 1420 01:30:06.900 --> 01:30:11.720 know the proceedings were published as i recall yes maybe i can help you 1421 01:30:11.720 --> 01:30:17.700 help me do you recall that the seventh saranac symposium was the symposium that was on 1422 01:30:17.700 --> 01:30:23.460 occupational cancer isn't that the one that you said that you were invited to 1423 01:30:23.460 --> 01:30:24.460 attend but weren't 1424 01:30:24.140 --> 01:30:27.880 able to it was a saranac symposium i don't remember that it was the seventh one but i 1425 01:30:27.880 --> 01:30:32.340 was invited to attend one on occupational cancer yes sir and you recall that there 1426 01:30:32.340 --> 01:30:33.340 was a symposium 1427 01:30:33.320 --> 01:30:38.420 on occupational cancer held at the saranac laboratory sometime in the 1950s 50s yes yes 1428 01:30:38.420 --> 01:30:42.860 do you see a list of names there sir yes sir of attendees how many pages of 1429 01:30:42.860 --> 01:30:43.860 attendees are there 1430 01:30:43.740 --> 01:30:49.240 at the saranac symposium on occupational cancer in 1952 the 1431 01:30:49.240 --> 01:30:51.700 council is important your question 1432 01:30:51.700 --> 01:30:57.600 is that the count that a lot is limited to cancer we object to the question a lot 1433 01:30:57.600 --> 01:30:59.860 a large number of 1434 01:30:59.860 --> 01:31:03.080 attendees a large number of opinions do you see the names of any corporations 1435 01:31:03.080 --> 01:31:08.350 listed there i object 1436 01:31:08.350 --> 01:31:14.350 i object to the form of questions that might be stated this is 1437 01:31:14.350 --> 01:31:15.350 important to be 1438 01:31:15.270 --> 01:31:20.590 be a list of that N.E.D., I don't know whether it is or not, an object to any 1439 01:31:20.590 --> 01:31:21.590 further question 1440 01:31:21.410 --> 01:31:25.830 from some supported niche that the witness himself cannot identify. 1441 01:31:28.760 --> 01:31:29.960 And further, to the 1442 01:31:29.960 --> 01:31:33.400 extent the document is authenticated, it's a conscience to speak for himself. 1443 01:31:42.200 --> 01:31:47.820 Oh, I see. Actually, uh, each page is not a name. 1444 01:31:48.100 --> 01:31:50.980 Yes, I believe it's, uh, really two pages. 1445 01:31:51.040 --> 01:31:54.780 Yeah, that puts it in a different, begins to make some sense now. 1446 01:31:54.780 --> 01:32:00.720 Do you see a list of various organizations which the 1447 01:32:00.720 --> 01:32:01.720 individual represented? 1448 01:32:02.220 --> 01:32:03.220 Yes, sir. 1449 01:32:03.080 --> 01:32:05.300 Do you see any corporations listed there? 1450 01:32:05.360 --> 01:32:06.360 Yes, sir. 1451 01:32:06.020 --> 01:32:09.920 If you read far enough, I believe you might find somebody from Owens, Illinois. 1452 01:32:10.400 --> 01:32:11.620 Can't you read all of the questions? 1453 01:32:12.340 --> 01:32:15.620 Well, it would be. I can't read all of it. 1454 01:32:16.220 --> 01:32:17.320 Do you see anybody? 1455 01:32:18.200 --> 01:32:22.400 Do you see the name of anybody from Johns- Manville Corporation there? 1456 01:32:22.400 --> 01:32:27.780 again I haven't looked at it and I'm not going to right now but all right sir 1457 01:32:27.780 --> 01:32:30.000 well we'll give you an opportunity to look at it over not perhaps 1458 01:32:30.000 --> 01:32:31.000 I 1459 01:32:30.820 --> 01:32:36.720 thought 1460 01:32:36.720 --> 01:32:39.460 that we were reserving objections mr. Carpenter but if you 1461 01:32:39.460 --> 01:32:40.820 would like to object you can go ahead 1462 01:32:43.640 --> 01:32:48.820 you want me to take it home well you can I'll entrust it to you overnight yes 1463 01:33:09.740 --> 01:33:14.560 Now, Dr. Kotin, attached 1464 01:33:14.560 --> 01:33:20.720 to this document, I suppose I'll separate it, and I will, is 1465 01:33:20.720 --> 01:33:26.510 is this will be k 1466 01:33:26.510 --> 01:33:32.010 -26 and does that purport to be a list of the attendees at the 1467 01:33:32.010 --> 01:33:33.890 1955 saranac 1468 01:33:33.890 --> 01:33:38.170 symposium it just says mcintyre saranac conference it doesn't give any date oh yes 1469 01:33:38.170 --> 01:33:39.170 it does on the 1470 01:33:38.750 --> 01:33:43.770 next page february 7 8 and 9 1955. are you familiar with uh the 1471 01:33:43.770 --> 01:33:46.550 mcintyre saranac symposium 1472 01:33:46.550 --> 01:33:51.310 that was held in 1955? Offhand, the 1473 01:33:51.310 --> 01:33:57.430 McIntyre-Saranac title isn't familiar, no. 1474 01:33:57.890 --> 01:34:02.090 You're not familiar with the McIntyre Institute? Yes, but I just don't, you asked 1475 01:34:02.090 --> 01:34:03.090 if I knew about the 1476 01:34:02.910 --> 01:34:05.970 McIntyre-Saranac conference, and I say that one I don't remember. 1477 01:34:21.990 --> 01:34:24.310 Now, doctor, where's your stick? 1478 01:34:34.080 --> 01:34:40.460 I hand you what purports to be a volume entitled Transactions McIntyre-Saranac Conference. 1479 01:34:40.520 --> 01:34:41.520 Would you 1480 01:34:40.780 --> 01:34:43.160 you look at that please sir yes 1481 01:34:50.560 --> 01:34:55.840 sir all right do you recognize uh if you would this is k-27 1482 01:34:55.840 --> 01:35:01.760 and it purports to be the transactions of the mcintyre 1483 01:35:01.760 --> 01:35:05.660 san act symposium 1955 yes sir 1484 01:35:07.020 --> 01:35:09.440 all right would you turn to the table of contents please 1485 01:35:09.440 --> 01:35:15.220 you yes sir do you recognize any of the 1486 01:35:15.220 --> 01:35:18.400 names in the table of contents as persons active in the 1487 01:35:18.400 --> 01:35:24.120 field of occupational medicine in 1955 yes sir all right would you tell me which of 1488 01:35:24.120 --> 01:35:25.120 those names you 1489 01:35:24.720 --> 01:35:30.160 recognize dr mccord dr trudeau dr 1490 01:35:30.160 --> 01:35:35.640 Schepers dr van orstrand dr kleinfeld tabershaw 1491 01:35:35.640 --> 01:35:39.990 albert hardy 1492 01:35:42.130 --> 01:35:44.510 holiday waters will 1493 01:35:50.340 --> 01:35:51.800 bait your quick 1494 01:35:57.590 --> 01:36:01.530 scandals and then yes you did recognize the name of 1495 01:36:01.530 --> 01:36:05.650 dr. Schepers and dr. Harriet Hardy yes sir okay 1496 01:36:05.650 --> 01:36:11.490 now doctor do you 1497 01:36:11.490 --> 01:36:13.630 see any papers on there that 1498 01:36:13.630 --> 01:36:18.530 one called the effect on the lungs of commercial 1499 01:36:18.530 --> 01:36:22.550 hydrous calcium silicate products yes 1500 01:36:34.420 --> 01:36:35.420 sir all 1501 01:36:35.020 --> 01:36:40.920 right do you know what a calcium silicate a commercial calcium silicate product is 1502 01:36:41.880 --> 01:36:46.940 it's a product containing calcium hydrated calcium silicate all right do you know 1503 01:36:46.940 --> 01:36:47.940 whether any 1504 01:36:47.460 --> 01:36:52.920 products which contain hydrated calcium silicate also contained asbestos and were 1505 01:36:52.920 --> 01:36:53.920 used as insulation 1506 01:36:53.760 --> 01:37:00.260 products yes there's some work in fact Johns-Manville manufactured a product called Thermobestos 1507 01:37:00.260 --> 01:37:04.220 which was a calcium silicate product that contained asbestos didn't it that's what 1508 01:37:04.220 --> 01:37:05.220 i was 1509 01:37:04.520 --> 01:37:10.260 referring to all right sir and if you would dr uh Kotin also 1510 01:37:10.260 --> 01:37:11.900 looking in the table of contents 1511 01:37:12.560 --> 01:37:16.840 see if you see the name of dr mcloughlin no 1512 01:37:22.950 --> 01:37:25.910 i don't if you hand it back perhaps i can find it 1513 01:37:25.910 --> 01:37:31.880 okay sure on page 1514 01:37:31.880 --> 01:37:34.940 uh an article starting to take 83. 1515 01:37:38.500 --> 01:37:41.340 oh yes the dust diseases of great britain 1516 01:37:41.340 --> 01:37:45.700 the article was entitled dust diseases in great britain is that correct correct did 1517 01:37:45.700 --> 01:37:46.700 you know 1518 01:37:46.120 --> 01:37:49.500 Dr. McLaughlin? I did not. Would you turn to page 83, please? 1519 01:37:49.680 --> 01:37:50.680 Yes, sir. 1520 01:37:57.430 --> 01:37:58.730 Would you look at the bottom 1521 01:37:58.730 --> 01:38:02.950 where they describe who Dr. McLaughlin is? This is the medical inspector of factories. 1522 01:38:03.390 --> 01:38:04.390 Of Great 1523 01:38:04.030 --> 01:38:07.630 Britain? Of the HM, His Majesty's Medical Inspector of Factories. 1524 01:38:07.630 --> 01:38:09.750 Are you familiar with the inspector 1525 01:38:09.750 --> 01:38:12.990 of factories arrangement in Great Britain? To a degree, yes. 1526 01:38:13.210 --> 01:38:15.490 Was it Dr. Merewether, the 1930 1527 01:38:15.490 --> 01:38:19.890 article that Mr. Wilson talked to you about? Wasn't he the inspector of factories 1528 01:38:19.890 --> 01:38:20.890 in Great Britain? Yes, 1529 01:38:20.890 --> 01:38:26.110 sir all right does the fact that mr mclaughlin was inspector of factories refresh 1530 01:38:26.110 --> 01:38:27.110 your recollection 1531 01:38:27.010 --> 01:38:32.970 about him no the name just doesn't 1532 01:38:32.970 --> 01:38:36.230 register you're not familiar with any of dr mclaughlin's 1533 01:38:36.810 --> 01:38:40.310 articles on silicosis and coal workers disease 1534 01:38:44.210 --> 01:38:48.670 turn to page 89 please doctor yes sir by 1535 01:38:52.190 --> 01:38:54.250 the way doctor let me ask you one question you've been the 1536 01:38:54.410 --> 01:38:59.610 medical symposiums where uh the papers were subsequently published haven't you yes sir 1537 01:38:59.610 --> 01:39:04.230 tell the jury what happens how those things uh the doctors get up and read the 1538 01:39:04.230 --> 01:39:05.230 papers and then 1539 01:39:05.670 --> 01:39:09.210 they're subsequently published in a bound volume like that some are some are yes 1540 01:39:09.210 --> 01:39:10.890 but uh if the 1541 01:39:10.890 --> 01:39:15.170 dr mclaughlin was there and presented a paper does it normally occur that the paper 1542 01:39:15.170 --> 01:39:16.170 is published 1543 01:39:15.590 --> 01:39:21.570 later there is no normal some do some don't okay all right would you read page 1544 01:39:21.570 --> 01:39:22.570 89 please 1545 01:39:22.330 --> 01:39:26.970 objective can i have it back and i'll point out the pattern 1546 01:39:33.320 --> 01:39:37.200 well you can see where i have the doc the senate's beginning cases 1547 01:39:37.200 --> 01:39:41.860 object the question that dr coates has already indicated 1548 01:39:55.980 --> 01:40:01.620 now shall i read yes sir go ahead and read cases of asbestosis however are now 1549 01:40:01.620 --> 01:40:02.620 appearing in workers 1550 01:40:02.440 --> 01:40:06.320 who do asbestos lagging of pipes and boilers all right now what kind of worker 1551 01:40:06.320 --> 01:40:07.540 would do asbestos 1552 01:40:07.540 --> 01:40:13.520 lagging of pipes and bullets an insulation okay doctor do you know whether dr 1553 01:40:13.520 --> 01:40:14.880 mclaughlin's article 1554 01:40:15.420 --> 01:40:20.200 that appears in that bound volume was subsequently published in the united states literature 1555 01:40:21.040 --> 01:40:25.300 medical literature? It could have been, yes. 1556 01:40:32.540 --> 01:40:34.140 Publication in the proceedings does not 1557 01:40:34.140 --> 01:40:37.400 preclude its publication in other journals as well. 1558 01:40:45.590 --> 01:40:47.490 I hand you, doctor, what 1559 01:40:48.590 --> 01:40:52.050 is labeled as K-28. 1560 01:40:57.020 --> 01:41:00.780 See that, sir? Yes, sir. On the next page, the name of the 1561 01:41:00.780 --> 01:41:03.880 journal is listed. Would you look at that? I can recognize the format. 1562 01:41:04.020 --> 01:41:05.020 The 1563 01:41:04.160 --> 01:41:07.700 archives of industrial health what was the archives of industrial health there 1564 01:41:07.700 --> 01:41:12.860 was these journal published by the American Medical Association as one of 1565 01:41:12.860 --> 01:41:18.060 its subspecialty journals subspecialty of industrial health 1566 01:41:18.060 --> 01:41:19.180 subspecialty of 1567 01:41:19.180 --> 01:41:23.820 industrial health yes sir and that particular article appeared in what year 1568 01:41:23.820 --> 01:41:29.460 of that journal 1955 1955 that is that the same 1569 01:41:29.460 --> 01:41:31.520 article by dr. McLaughlin that 1570 01:41:31.520 --> 01:41:36.880 appears in that blue book i closed it but i page 1571 01:41:38.580 --> 01:41:39.580 was it 1572 01:41:43.040 --> 01:41:44.080 page 83. 1573 01:41:48.580 --> 01:41:52.660 is that the same article i'll tell you in a moment all right yes 1574 01:41:55.280 --> 01:41:57.440 sir all right now 1575 01:42:00.800 --> 01:42:02.120 doctor we were 1576 01:42:02.120 --> 01:42:07.800 talking earlier about exhibit number 26 and i 1577 01:42:07.800 --> 01:42:13.140 asked you to look sir at the names in the middle 1578 01:42:13.140 --> 01:42:18.600 of this column the people who were at the saranac symposium in 1955 and asked you 1579 01:42:18.600 --> 01:42:19.600 if you recognize 1580 01:42:19.540 --> 01:42:23.940 the names of any of those gentlemen as being associated at that time with john's memo 1581 01:42:35.700 --> 01:42:37.220 Do you see the name Dubeau? 1582 01:42:38.160 --> 01:42:39.580 Under Norton Nelson, yes. 1583 01:42:40.260 --> 01:42:43.500 Do you know Dr. Dubeau is the plant physician of Johns-Manville? 1584 01:42:44.020 --> 01:42:45.020 I did not. 1585 01:42:45.000 --> 01:42:46.440 Did you see the name Kenneth Smith? 1586 01:42:46.780 --> 01:42:49.880 Yes. No, I didn't hear, but I know the name Kenneth Smith. 1587 01:42:50.160 --> 01:42:51.560 Is it in the same page? 1588 01:42:51.920 --> 01:42:53.520 Yes, sir. Right below Dr. Dubeau. 1589 01:42:53.740 --> 01:42:54.900 It sure is, yes, sir. 1590 01:42:55.080 --> 01:42:59.160 All right. Is that the same Kenneth Smith that you said was medical director of 1591 01:42:59.160 --> 01:43:00.160 Johns-Manville? 1592 01:42:59.640 --> 01:43:04.840 yes sir on the next page do you see the organizations which those gentlemen were 1593 01:43:04.840 --> 01:43:09.300 members of the ones that have checks fine do you see the name john's mantle yes sir 1594 01:43:09.300 --> 01:43:11.900 all right now doctor 1595 01:43:16.730 --> 01:43:20.970 uh we we talked earlier about uh dr uh 1596 01:43:23.180 --> 01:43:26.260 lanza's 1938 textbook 1597 01:43:26.260 --> 01:43:32.010 and then i handed you k-16 which is a 1598 01:43:32.010 --> 01:43:37.070 textbook on industrial medicine from uh by dr uh 1599 01:43:38.150 --> 01:43:43.030 hazelette hazel hazelette yes sir dated um 1947 1600 01:43:43.030 --> 01:43:48.570 correct yes sir now here's a another 1601 01:43:48.570 --> 01:43:54.570 article i'd like to go ahead and identify that and this is entitled 1602 01:43:54.570 --> 01:43:56.330 industrial maladies 1603 01:43:56.330 --> 01:44:02.090 the malady is disease isn't it yes sir and that's dated 19 and 34 1604 01:44:02.090 --> 01:44:03.290 isn't it yes sir 1605 01:44:03.910 --> 01:44:08.770 and who was the author you have a number on it yes sir k-29 and who is the author 1606 01:44:08.770 --> 01:44:09.770 of that 1607 01:44:09.170 --> 01:44:14.310 particular book sir thomas leg do you know him ever heard of him yes but i don't know 1608 01:44:14.310 --> 01:44:18.610 well he was active in industrial medicine way back yeah now 1609 01:44:18.610 --> 01:44:21.830 uh doctor do you uh 1610 01:44:22.750 --> 01:44:28.210 look over on page 190 of that 1934 textbook yes 1611 01:44:29.650 --> 01:44:31.450 sir do you see a discussion of the disease 1612 01:44:31.450 --> 01:44:37.090 asbestos yes sir now are you familiar with this particular 1613 01:44:37.090 --> 01:44:38.090 textbook entitled 1614 01:44:38.050 --> 01:44:42.830 industrial maladies I've known the book but I haven't read this all right was 1615 01:44:42.830 --> 01:44:47.550 that the far-fetched publication on industrial medicine first time yes sir 1616 01:44:48.490 --> 01:44:52.930 yes sir I the Knoxville medical publication if 1617 01:44:56.700 --> 01:44:58.640 we could take about five 1618 01:44:58.640 --> 01:45:03.160 minutes break how much more time do you have because I think we got run out of 1619 01:45:03.160 --> 01:45:07.340 your time that's right you want to stop it for a second okay 1620 01:45:30.350 --> 01:45:33.330 i'm 1621 01:46:02.390 --> 01:46:06.810 ready dr Kotin uh i believe that 1622 01:46:06.810 --> 01:46:11.470 you joined Johns-Manville july the 1st of 1974 june 1st i assume 1623 01:46:11.470 --> 01:46:14.670 that you joined Johns-Manville 1624 01:46:14.670 --> 01:46:20.090 a reasonable period of time after the school year ended at temple it 1625 01:46:21.590 --> 01:46:22.710 was unrelated to that 1626 01:46:23.950 --> 01:46:24.950 All right, sir. 1627 01:46:25.010 --> 01:46:28.790 Did you make your decision to go with Johns-Manville sometime earlier than June the 1628 01:46:28.790 --> 01:46:29.790 1st, obviously? 1629 01:46:29.610 --> 01:46:30.610 Yes, sir. 1630 01:46:30.190 --> 01:46:31.190 All right. 1631 01:46:31.810 --> 01:46:35.850 Now, Dr. Kotin, I believe you said earlier that you reached the conclusion in 1955 1632 01:46:35.850 --> 01:46:38.490 that asbestos was a carcinogen. 1633 01:46:38.570 --> 01:46:39.570 Isn't that correct? 1634 01:46:39.170 --> 01:46:40.170 Correct. 1635 01:46:39.350 --> 01:46:45.120 and and doctor as 1636 01:46:45.120 --> 01:46:49.540 a cancer research scientist you reached the conclusion in 1637 01:46:49.540 --> 01:46:55.240 the early 1950s that cancer-causing agents or carcinogens did not 1638 01:46:55.240 --> 01:46:56.740 have a no 1639 01:46:56.740 --> 01:47:01.820 threshold effect is that correct now would you explain to the jury what you 1640 01:47:01.820 --> 01:47:08.000 meant back in the early 50s about a cancer-causing substance not having a 1641 01:47:08.000 --> 01:47:13.260 threshold effect exposure to a carcinogen 1642 01:47:13.260 --> 01:47:16.100 at any level was capable of 1643 01:47:16.100 --> 01:47:21.580 initiating a cell change which could not necessarily would 1644 01:47:21.580 --> 01:47:22.860 go on to the 1645 01:47:22.860 --> 01:47:28.640 production of a cancer yes so a carcinogen is a cancer 1646 01:47:28.640 --> 01:47:29.640 -causing substance 1647 01:47:29.340 --> 01:47:35.040 yes sir all right now so if I understand what you just said 1648 01:47:35.040 --> 01:47:36.600 correctly dr. Kotin 1649 01:47:37.680 --> 01:47:42.840 if a substance like asbestos which was demonstrated at least to your satisfaction 1650 01:47:42.840 --> 01:47:44.140 to be a carcinogen 1651 01:47:45.120 --> 01:47:50.380 any exposure there was no way that as a scientist you could determine and say 1652 01:47:50.380 --> 01:47:54.640 this was your opinion in the 50s that any dose of asbestos 1653 01:47:54.640 --> 01:47:58.880 no matter how small could not result in 1654 01:47:58.880 --> 01:48:04.380 some instances in the formation of a cancer no that's there was no evidence to say 1655 01:48:04.380 --> 01:48:05.380 that it could 1656 01:48:04.880 --> 01:48:10.220 not all right and the greater the dose the greater the risk yes sir now 1657 01:48:11.560 --> 01:48:13.500 i believe you held the view 1658 01:48:13.500 --> 01:48:19.240 that there was a not a safe level of exposure to a carcinogen like asbestos 1659 01:48:19.240 --> 01:48:21.340 for two decades 1660 01:48:28.640 --> 01:48:34.410 at least yes in fact okay sir when you were the 1661 01:48:34.410 --> 01:48:36.810 when you were with the united states government 1662 01:48:36.810 --> 01:48:41.970 on numerous occasions you testified in congress and before federal agencies that 1663 01:48:41.970 --> 01:48:42.970 there was not 1664 01:48:42.930 --> 01:48:46.270 Not a safe level of exposure to any cancer-causing substance. 1665 01:48:46.450 --> 01:48:47.450 That is correct. 1666 01:48:47.650 --> 01:48:53.440 Now, Doctor, as late as November 1667 01:48:53.440 --> 01:48:59.060 of 1973, were you of the 1668 01:48:59.060 --> 01:49:04.840 opinion that a compound or substance which demonstrates carcinogenic 1669 01:49:04.840 --> 01:49:08.940 activity at any level must be considered a carcinogen? 1670 01:49:09.480 --> 01:49:10.480 Yes, sir. 1671 01:49:12.460 --> 01:49:18.410 and will you have the further opinion that ingestion or inhalation by human beings of 1672 01:49:18.410 --> 01:49:24.770 any amount of a compound shown to be a cancer-causing substance in test animals 1673 01:49:24.770 --> 01:49:30.870 experimental animals must be regarded as a threat to human health under under certain 1674 01:49:30.870 --> 01:49:36.690 conditions of experimentation yes doctor i hand you a copy 1675 01:49:36.690 --> 01:49:40.080 of the phone one we got 1676 01:49:45.520 --> 01:49:51.020 I don't know what the next number is, but after you, sir, oh, I'm sorry, excuse me. 1677 01:49:52.040 --> 01:49:53.580 30, K-30. 1678 01:49:53.960 --> 01:49:55.560 This will be K-30. 1679 01:50:15.910 --> 01:50:21.670 The record K-30 purports to be the statement of Paul Kotin, witness for the Office 1680 01:50:21.670 --> 01:50:22.670 of Hazardous 1681 01:50:22.410 --> 01:50:28.150 Materials Control, United States Environmental Protection Agency, Washington, D.C., dated 1682 01:50:28.150 --> 01:50:33.050 12 November 1973 and I asked you sir the second page measure signature 1683 01:50:33.050 --> 01:50:37.140 yes sir is 1684 01:50:37.140 --> 01:50:42.360 that a copy of the statement you made in November 1973 with respect to the fact 1685 01:50:42.360 --> 01:50:47.080 that in your opinion at that time there was not a safe level of exposure for 1686 01:50:47.080 --> 01:50:54.580 human beings yes sir now now dr. 1687 01:51:00.240 --> 01:51:03.920 sets 1974 sometime in 1974 you changed your 1688 01:51:03.920 --> 01:51:08.680 mind as you expressed on direct testimony is that correct correct now do you agree 1689 01:51:08.680 --> 01:51:09.760 with me that dr 1690 01:51:09.760 --> 01:51:15.220 selikoff whom you've quoted on numerous times on direct does not agree with you 1691 01:51:15.220 --> 01:51:16.420 and he holds 1692 01:51:16.420 --> 01:51:20.200 the view that there is no safe level of exposure to asbestos direct to the form of 1693 01:51:20.200 --> 01:51:21.200 the question 1694 01:51:21.040 --> 01:51:25.380 now i agree with you that he says that he's wrong but he says he's wrong but he 1695 01:51:25.380 --> 01:51:27.100 says in addition to 1696 01:51:27.100 --> 01:51:31.120 that the international agency for research against cancer disagrees with you do 1697 01:51:31.120 --> 01:51:32.120 they not same object 1698 01:51:31.960 --> 01:51:36.320 Yes, sir, and the United States government and its official position on asbestos 1699 01:51:36.320 --> 01:51:38.260 disagrees with you. Does it not? Yes, sir 1700 01:51:38.260 --> 01:51:41.520 And in addition to that dr. Kotin you yourself 1701 01:51:42.260 --> 01:51:45.040 Have some second thoughts about that 1702 01:51:45.040 --> 01:51:49.240 In light of some recent studies that have been published in Great Britain in that correct 1703 01:51:49.240 --> 01:51:53.920 No, my second thoughts relate to the shape and curve of the dose response curve. 1704 01:51:54.360 --> 01:51:55.960 I'm not on the basis of 1705 01:51:57.080 --> 01:52:00.820 Whether indeed there are experimental data to suggest 1706 01:52:01.960 --> 01:52:07.640 a no-effect level. There are volumes of publications in the 1707 01:52:07.640 --> 01:52:09.960 very, very recent past which I have 1708 01:52:09.960 --> 01:52:14.880 referred to. The fundamental studies going on at the McCarter Laboratory in Wisconsin. 1709 01:52:15.580 --> 01:52:21.560 Studies going on at the University of Toronto, Department 1710 01:52:21.560 --> 01:52:23.440 of Pathology and Dr. Farber's laboratory. 1711 01:52:24.460 --> 01:52:28.480 Studies that are going on, yea, verily, at the National Cancer Institute. 1712 01:52:29.000 --> 01:52:30.000 Studies that 1713 01:52:29.920 --> 01:52:36.100 are going on in some of the national or then the atomic energy commission national laboratories 1714 01:52:37.040 --> 01:52:41.660 studies devoted to dna repair 1715 01:52:41.660 --> 01:52:46.960 studies devoted to the reversibility of the interaction between 1716 01:52:46.960 --> 01:52:52.940 carcinogens and macromolecules and cells so that there 1717 01:52:52.940 --> 01:52:54.800 has been a body of information which 1718 01:52:54.800 --> 01:53:00.800 uh has been accumulated over the past uh five to ten 1719 01:53:00.800 --> 01:53:03.520 years which serves as the basis for this 1720 01:53:03.520 --> 01:53:07.920 opinion now doctor you wrote the forward to dr Selikoff's book that's been 1721 01:53:07.920 --> 01:53:08.980 previously identified 1722 01:53:09.530 --> 01:53:15.120 with books entitled asbestos and disease yes sir and that was written as recently 1723 01:53:15.120 --> 01:53:16.600 as 1978 wasn't it 1724 01:53:16.600 --> 01:53:21.400 yes sir and in it dr Selikoff clearly says that there is no threshold limit value 1725 01:53:21.400 --> 01:53:22.400 for asbestos 1726 01:53:22.200 --> 01:53:27.060 incites numerous authorities that he sure does dr selikoff still thinks enough of 1727 01:53:27.060 --> 01:53:28.060 my opinion 1728 01:53:28.180 --> 01:53:33.440 and i would emphasize that knowing that and thinks enough of 1729 01:53:33.440 --> 01:53:36.960 my knowledge and expertise in the area 1730 01:53:37.660 --> 01:53:42.860 to have selected out of the thousands and thousands of persons who work in the field 1731 01:53:43.680 --> 01:53:49.600 me to serve as the author of the forward i don't think he would want 1732 01:53:49.600 --> 01:53:50.600 to demean 1733 01:53:51.340 --> 01:53:56.580 something as permanent as a book between hard covers by having somebody who we felt knew 1734 01:53:56.580 --> 01:54:02.240 nothing about the subject break the forward move the strike is unresponsive now I think 1735 01:54:03.800 --> 01:54:07.880 it's immediately for that that's for the judge to decide thank you doctor now 1736 01:54:07.880 --> 01:54:10.040 doctor do you agree 1737 01:54:10.040 --> 01:54:14.840 that the disease mesothelioma which you described as a cancer of the lining of the 1738 01:54:14.840 --> 01:54:17.540 lungs is a fatal 1739 01:54:17.540 --> 01:54:23.460 disease? Yes sir. And do you agree that in persons not exposed to 1740 01:54:23.460 --> 01:54:24.500 asbestos it's a 1741 01:54:24.500 --> 01:54:29.120 rare disease? Uncommon, yes sir. And I believe you agreed yesterday with Dr. 1742 01:54:29.360 --> 01:54:34.720 Selikoff's statistics that over 11 percent of insulation workers die of 1743 01:54:34.720 --> 01:54:39.400 mesothelioma. In his data, yes sir. Now doctor, 1744 01:54:44.380 --> 01:54:47.060 we discussed yesterday Dr. 1745 01:54:47.060 --> 01:54:52.780 Dr. Hueper's 1942 book in which he discussed asbestos and lung cancer. 1746 01:54:52.840 --> 01:54:53.840 Do you recall that? 1747 01:54:53.640 --> 01:54:54.640 Yes, sir. 1748 01:54:54.160 --> 01:54:55.160 All right. 1749 01:54:54.840 --> 01:54:58.700 Now, did you find Dr. 1750 01:54:58.940 --> 01:55:04.440 Hueper's cancer articles to be excellent reviews of the data in the mid-1950s? 1751 01:55:04.560 --> 01:55:09.580 As I indicated, they were very, very comprehensive and in some areas critical and 1752 01:55:09.580 --> 01:55:10.980 in some areas uncritical. 1753 01:55:12.000 --> 01:55:16.200 and I would say and I think it's important that 1754 01:55:16.200 --> 01:55:20.620 certainly the general 1755 01:55:23.120 --> 01:55:24.940 opinion at the time was that 1756 01:55:24.940 --> 01:55:30.720 they were comprehensive and of uneven quality doctor 1757 01:55:32.930 --> 01:55:35.370 I asked you whether you have ever made 1758 01:55:35.370 --> 01:55:40.230 this state the reader is referred to the comprehensive and excellent review of Hueper 1759 01:55:40.230 --> 01:55:43.790 in recent developments in environmental cancer 1760 01:55:43.790 --> 01:55:47.770 for a critical study of the newer data relating to occupational cancer. 1761 01:55:47.870 --> 01:55:50.190 That was one of his critical papers, as I indicated. 1762 01:55:50.570 --> 01:55:53.930 All right, and in that paper, he talked about asbestos in cancer, didn't he? 1763 01:55:53.970 --> 01:55:54.970 He did. 1764 01:55:54.410 --> 01:55:59.790 All right, and he said that all asbestos workers were subject to lung cancer, 1765 01:55:59.890 --> 01:56:00.890 did he not? 1766 01:56:00.350 --> 01:56:01.350 No, not in the form of the question. 1767 01:56:01.250 --> 01:56:05.290 No, what he said was that all asbestos workers were in an environment 1768 01:56:05.290 --> 01:56:07.450 where there was a carcinogen there. 1769 01:56:07.650 --> 01:56:08.650 All right. 1770 01:56:07.990 --> 01:56:13.410 now doctor you familiar with the fact that periodically there were held 1771 01:56:14.430 --> 01:56:19.810 pneumoconiosis conferences in South Africa yes sir are you familiar with one 1772 01:56:19.810 --> 01:56:22.610 that was held in 1959 yes 1773 01:56:25.870 --> 01:56:29.590 sir and I believe it was at the 1959 conference 1774 01:56:29.590 --> 01:56:34.290 that dr. Wagner spelled in the United States like Wagner 1775 01:56:34.290 --> 01:56:36.550 presented his paper 1776 01:56:36.550 --> 01:56:42.490 on mesothelioma and persons exposed in the neighborhood and occupation. 1777 01:56:42.750 --> 01:56:43.750 Is that 1778 01:56:43.010 --> 01:56:47.500 correct? Correct. And was Dr. 1779 01:56:48.860 --> 01:56:51.660 Wagner's paper published in the medical 1780 01:56:51.660 --> 01:56:55.280 literature in January 1960? In 1960 early, yes sir. 1781 01:56:56.300 --> 01:56:59.640 Now Dr. Wagner's paper in 1959 1782 01:56:59.640 --> 01:57:05.580 had data which indicated and proved to you that asbestos and mesothelioma 1783 01:57:05.580 --> 01:57:06.580 had a 1784 01:57:06.340 --> 01:57:11.200 cause and effect relationship isn't that correct that in the northwest cape coast 1785 01:57:11.200 --> 01:57:13.420 uh it did dr 1786 01:57:13.420 --> 01:57:19.240 wagner made a very very important point then in his article 1787 01:57:19.240 --> 01:57:20.380 and and still does 1788 01:57:21.500 --> 01:57:27.280 that he still cannot explain the difference between the occurrence of 1789 01:57:27.280 --> 01:57:28.640 mesothelioma in the 1790 01:57:28.640 --> 01:57:34.280 northwest cape of south africa and the non-occurrence of mesothelioma 1791 01:57:34.280 --> 01:57:36.500 in the transvaal area 1792 01:57:37.200 --> 01:57:42.820 of south africa where the ore body the ore contents and no 1793 01:57:42.820 --> 01:57:45.700 geologists so i rely on geologists 1794 01:57:45.700 --> 01:57:51.280 for telling me are essentially the same certainly the exposures were the same 1795 01:57:51.280 --> 01:57:53.480 the population at risk 1796 01:57:53.480 --> 01:57:59.480 is it the same so dr. Wagner was of the opinion that there could be no 1797 01:57:59.480 --> 01:58:02.740 doubt that the in his mind 1798 01:58:02.740 --> 01:58:08.140 that the mesothelioma is caused in the Northwest Cape were caused by exposure to 1799 01:58:08.140 --> 01:58:09.880 asbestos but he 1800 01:58:09.880 --> 01:58:15.600 did concern himself with what might the explanation be for the what is still 1801 01:58:15.600 --> 01:58:16.600 referred to as the 1802 01:58:16.500 --> 01:58:22.440 paradox of south africa the absence of mesotheliomas from the transvaal area 1803 01:58:22.440 --> 01:58:24.540 now doctor perhaps you 1804 01:58:24.540 --> 01:58:30.460 didn't understand my question and i'll ask it again do you agree that you yourself 1805 01:58:30.460 --> 01:58:31.620 came to 1806 01:58:31.620 --> 01:58:36.740 the conclusion in 1960 that dr wagner and his paper presented in 1959 1807 01:58:36.740 --> 01:58:39.180 had data which to you 1808 01:58:39.180 --> 01:58:44.540 you indicated an asbestos-mesothelioma cause-and-effect relationship. 1809 01:58:44.900 --> 01:58:45.900 Yes, sir. 1810 01:58:45.480 --> 01:58:46.480 All right. 1811 01:58:47.610 --> 01:58:51.430 Doctor, are you aware of the fact that before Dr. 1812 01:58:51.650 --> 01:58:53.790 Wagner presented his paper in 1959 1813 01:58:53.790 --> 01:58:57.810 that there were case reports in the literature dating back to 1946 1814 01:58:58.610 --> 01:59:04.930 where doctors had associated, in case reports, asbestos with the disease mesothelioma? 1815 01:59:05.210 --> 01:59:06.550 There were case reports, yes. 1816 01:59:06.650 --> 01:59:07.650 Thank you. 1817 01:59:07.150 --> 01:59:12.480 Now, do you recall in Dr. 1818 01:59:12.680 --> 01:59:17.840 Wagner's 1959 paper that some of the cases that he studied were 1819 01:59:17.840 --> 01:59:18.840 insulation workers? 1820 01:59:20.080 --> 01:59:22.320 Well, if I had a copy of the paper, I'd be glad to. 1821 02:00:15.300 --> 02:00:16.300 All right. 1822 02:00:16.300 --> 02:00:21.820 Now, Doctor, if you will look on page 267, case 1823 02:00:23.940 --> 02:00:29.920 number 30, do you have an exhibit number? 1824 02:00:30.060 --> 02:00:31.820 This will be exhibit number 31. 1825 02:00:31.820 --> 02:00:37.770 one do you see doctor on page 1826 02:00:37.770 --> 02:00:43.810 267 case number 30. yes sir from the age of 21 to 26 he worked 1827 02:00:43.810 --> 02:00:47.670 in a factory in the cape as a boiler maker and fitter he volunteered the 1828 02:00:47.670 --> 02:00:48.670 information that he 1829 02:00:48.450 --> 02:00:52.750 had worked continuously with asbestos lagging pipes and boilers i believe you 1830 02:00:52.750 --> 02:00:54.030 testified earlier 1831 02:00:54.030 --> 02:00:58.730 that a person who lagged pipes and boilers that's a british term for an insulation 1832 02:00:58.730 --> 02:00:59.730 work isn't that 1833 02:00:59.450 --> 02:01:04.270 correct that's correct all right now do you see where dr wagner found that this man 1834 02:01:04.270 --> 02:01:05.270 had both 1835 02:01:04.850 --> 02:01:11.070 asbestosis and pleural mesothelioma yes sir now if you look at what will be exhibit 31 1836 02:01:11.710 --> 02:01:17.930 which is the follow-up study by dr Sleggs and dr wagner you see that 1837 02:01:19.590 --> 02:01:25.470 excuse me 32 yes sir okay if you would uh do you recognize uh this 1838 02:01:25.470 --> 02:01:26.790 paper yes sir all right 1839 02:01:26.790 --> 02:01:29.690 If you'd look at page 30 doctor, yes, sir 1840 02:01:30.830 --> 02:01:31.930 What's the date of that? 1841 02:01:32.810 --> 02:01:34.790 1961 January 1961 1842 02:01:34.790 --> 02:01:37.310 If you look down 1843 02:01:37.310 --> 02:01:41.230 At the next to the last sentence where 1844 02:01:44.980 --> 02:01:47.300 it starts the industrial use of asbestos 1845 02:01:51.920 --> 02:01:56.580 Yes, and then in the middle of the paragraph I believe dr. 1846 02:01:57.680 --> 02:02:03.120 Dr. Sleggs writes, asbestos cement and an asbestos clay compound are used 1847 02:02:03.120 --> 02:02:07.580 extensively for insulating boilers in power stations, industries, and railway locations. 1848 02:02:07.820 --> 02:02:08.820 Right. 1849 02:02:08.340 --> 02:02:09.340 Locomotives. 1850 02:02:09.000 --> 02:02:11.420 Three of our patients were employed in this way. 1851 02:02:11.480 --> 02:02:12.480 Do you see that? 1852 02:02:12.160 --> 02:02:13.160 Yes, sir. 1853 02:02:12.840 --> 02:02:17.680 And then he says, another patient was employed manufacturing fireproof clothing. 1854 02:02:18.140 --> 02:02:23.720 Cases of asbestosis have been observed in a variety of industries on the Witwatersrand. 1855 02:02:23.720 --> 02:02:26.740 on now i know i didn't pronounce that correctly but that's the area that he's 1856 02:02:26.740 --> 02:02:27.740 talking about isn't 1857 02:02:27.540 --> 02:02:31.980 it yes sir does that refresh your recollection doctor about the fact that included 1858 02:02:31.980 --> 02:02:33.440 in dr wagner's 1859 02:02:33.440 --> 02:02:37.500 epidemiologic study in 1960 were insulation workers yes sir 1860 02:02:37.500 --> 02:02:42.360 now yeah if i could doctor 1861 02:02:42.360 --> 02:02:46.720 i'll mark these so we won't lose silence i have a tendency to do that 1862 02:02:46.720 --> 02:02:48.380 now 1863 02:02:57.630 --> 02:03:00.010 the majority of the people 1864 02:03:00.010 --> 02:03:05.610 that dr wagner examined over that period of time were people who didn't work with 1865 02:03:05.610 --> 02:03:06.610 asbestos but just 1866 02:03:06.510 --> 02:03:10.070 happened to live in the area where asbestos was being worked with some of the cases 1867 02:03:10.070 --> 02:03:11.710 yes sir now 1868 02:03:12.960 --> 02:03:18.920 was dr wagner's study an epidemiologic study doctor yes he used a population 1869 02:03:18.920 --> 02:03:21.420 that do you 1870 02:03:21.420 --> 02:03:26.220 excuse me i bet he could identify now i believe you agree sir do you not that a 1871 02:03:26.220 --> 02:03:27.220 company medical 1872 02:03:26.800 --> 02:03:32.540 director had an obligation in 1955 to be aware of the doll study on cancer lung 1873 02:03:32.540 --> 02:03:38.460 cancer and in 1960 of the Wagner study on mesothelioma he should be 1874 02:03:38.460 --> 02:03:39.460 aware of it 1875 02:03:38.920 --> 02:03:44.960 now doctor are you familiar with the 1963 paper of dr. 1876 02:03:45.100 --> 02:03:47.800 Selico the one in the 1877 02:03:47.800 --> 02:03:53.580 journal American Medical Association yes I remember that I recall that I don't 1878 02:03:58.730 --> 02:04:00.750 This will be exhibit number 33. 1879 02:04:05.800 --> 02:04:10.620 And do you see the title of the paper, Asbestos Exposure and Neoplasia? 1880 02:04:10.800 --> 02:04:14.800 Yes, sir. And I believe you said earlier that neoplasia means cancer. 1881 02:04:15.300 --> 02:04:18.780 Correct. And is this not an epidemiologic study? 1882 02:04:19.200 --> 02:04:22.320 Yes, sir. And is it not a significant study? 1883 02:04:22.540 --> 02:04:28.480 Yes, sir. And in that study did Dr. Selikoff in 1963 report an increased 1884 02:04:28.480 --> 02:04:30.840 incidence of cancer, lung cancer? 1885 02:04:30.840 --> 02:04:36.740 sir yes sir asbestosis yes sir and mesothelioma yes sir in insulation work 1886 02:04:36.740 --> 02:04:38.460 yes sir and was that 1887 02:04:38.460 --> 02:04:43.020 paper not read at the annual convention of the american medical association in june 1888 02:04:43.020 --> 02:04:44.020 of 1963 1889 02:04:43.700 --> 02:04:49.280 yes that was published in april of 64 right now doctor do you know um 1890 02:04:49.280 --> 02:04:53.600 dr thomas mancuso 1891 02:04:53.600 --> 02:04:59.320 yes sir is he an epidemiologist he does epidemiology yes sir 1892 02:04:59.320 --> 02:05:00.360 are you familiar with 1893 02:05:00.360 --> 02:05:06.000 the paper he reported in 1962 of a study of an asbestos product 1894 02:05:06.000 --> 02:05:07.200 manufacturing company 1895 02:05:09.320 --> 02:05:13.300 if it were shown to me i could tell you whether i would require it i might look for 1896 02:05:13.300 --> 02:05:14.300 it but do 1897 02:05:13.940 --> 02:05:19.300 you recall that he did work uh in the 60s on asbestos it would work in the 60s on a variety 1898 02:05:19.300 --> 02:05:24.780 of things including water okay now let me ask you this doctor do you think that any 1899 02:05:24.780 --> 02:05:26.760 doctor company 1900 02:05:26.760 --> 02:05:31.980 medical doctor who was in attendance at the American Medical Association 1901 02:05:31.980 --> 02:05:37.500 Convention in Atlantic City, New Jersey on June 17, 1963 and heard Dr. 1902 02:05:37.620 --> 02:05:38.620 Selikoff 1903 02:05:37.960 --> 02:05:41.780 present this paper. Do you think that that should have promoted some reaction 1904 02:05:41.780 --> 02:05:46.200 on his part with respect to labeling insulation products that he manufactured 1905 02:05:46.200 --> 02:05:51.000 which contained asbestos? No, it certainly should have evoked the reaction to him to 1906 02:05:51.000 --> 02:05:53.280 pursue the to pursue the situation more 1907 02:05:53.280 --> 02:05:57.920 doctor um 1908 02:06:00.230 --> 02:06:01.230 this 1909 02:06:15.320 --> 02:06:16.320 year 1910 02:06:20.540 --> 02:06:26.960 and uh counsel the copy of the document that's been produced previously 1911 02:07:12.210 --> 02:07:17.710 dr um i've handed you exhibits 34 35 1912 02:07:17.710 --> 02:07:20.990 and 36. have you ever seen these documents before this morning 1913 02:07:20.990 --> 02:07:27.190 All right, number 34 purports to be a letter from Dr. 1914 02:07:27.410 --> 02:07:33.070 Mancuso to Mr. Knippa, plant manager of the Philip Carey Manufacturing Company, 1915 02:07:33.190 --> 02:07:35.290 dated May 23, 1963. 1916 02:07:36.290 --> 02:07:38.710 Have you ever heard of the Philip Carey Manufacturing Company? 1917 02:07:38.950 --> 02:07:39.950 Yes, sir. 1918 02:07:40.030 --> 02:07:45.250 Now, exhibit number 35 purports to be a letter from Dr. 1919 02:07:45.490 --> 02:07:49.950 Mancuso to Mr. Knippa, dated August 15, 1963. 1920 02:07:50.990 --> 02:07:57.470 yes sir and number 36 purports to be uh the philip carey manufacturing company occupational 1921 02:07:57.470 --> 02:08:02.030 health program thomas mancuso september 23 1963 1922 02:08:02.030 --> 02:08:05.690 and on the second page there appears to be 1923 02:08:05.690 --> 02:08:09.610 what appears to be the station area of the philip carey manufacturing company do 1924 02:08:09.610 --> 02:08:10.610 you see that 1925 02:08:10.050 --> 02:08:15.600 yes sir all right now doctor um 1926 02:08:15.600 --> 02:08:21.140 do you know the name of the company that succeeded to the philip 1927 02:08:21.140 --> 02:08:25.460 carry manufacturing company? No sir. You ever heard of the company called Sellotex? 1928 02:08:25.720 --> 02:08:31.690 I've heard of it yes sir. Dr. look if you would at 1929 02:08:31.690 --> 02:08:39.090 the May 23 1963 letter and do 1930 02:08:39.090 --> 02:08:44.170 you see under background on the first page a national awareness is developing 1931 02:08:44.170 --> 02:08:49.070 relative to the potential and harmful harmful effects of asbestos and asbestos 1932 02:08:49.070 --> 02:08:54.970 products. This stems from, number one, the relatively recent scientific reports in England, 1933 02:08:55.050 --> 02:08:59.350 Germany, and Africa, and the United States showing a strong association between 1934 02:08:59.350 --> 02:09:00.450 asbestos and lung 1935 02:09:00.450 --> 02:09:05.310 cancer and mesothelioma of the pleura and peritoneum. 1936 02:09:05.410 --> 02:09:07.050 Is that correct? Yes, sir. 1937 02:09:07.110 --> 02:09:11.630 I think I 1938 02:09:11.630 --> 02:09:15.530 asked him that. Do you see that on the paper? I see it on the paper. 1939 02:09:15.630 --> 02:09:16.630 Now, 1940 02:09:15.910 --> 02:09:22.530 Now, with respect to reports in Africa on cancer, mesothelioma, the pleura, and peritoneum, 1941 02:09:22.610 --> 02:09:27.690 do you know of any reports suggesting that association other than the Wagner 1942 02:09:27.690 --> 02:09:30.030 reports in 59 and 60, 1943 02:09:30.170 --> 02:09:31.590 which we talked about a few minutes ago? 1944 02:09:31.970 --> 02:09:35.790 Those were the ones that were the major ones. 1945 02:09:35.970 --> 02:09:39.750 Now, with respect to the association between asbestos and lung cancer, 1946 02:09:40.010 --> 02:09:45.450 do you know of any reports in England other than the Dahl study in 1955 1947 02:09:45.450 --> 02:09:50.030 that we talked about? Epidemiological studies, that was the first one, yes sir. 1948 02:09:50.130 --> 02:09:55.970 Do you know of any any studies in Germany and the United States prior to 1949 02:09:55.970 --> 02:10:00.290 1963 in reference to mesothelioma and lung cancer? 1950 02:10:00.890 --> 02:10:03.950 Prior to the 63 report? Okay. 1951 02:10:04.110 --> 02:10:10.110 No epidemiological studies. Now you were with the United States 1952 02:10:10.110 --> 02:10:11.190 government in 1962 1953 02:10:11.190 --> 02:10:15.350 were you not? Yes sir. And did the United States government not have an agency 1954 02:10:15.350 --> 02:10:20.010 called the United States Public Health Service yes sir and did it not also have 1955 02:10:20.010 --> 02:10:25.190 a Bureau of occupational health and safety safety and health safe Bosch yes 1956 02:10:25.190 --> 02:10:31.070 and that was operative in 1962 yes sir and while you were involved in 1957 02:10:31.070 --> 02:10:35.110 environmental areas Bosch was involved in occupational areas is that correct 1958 02:10:35.110 --> 02:10:39.710 well there's a big difference another difference Bosch was a regulatory agency 1959 02:10:39.710 --> 02:10:42.910 and we were a scientific-based agency. I see. 1960 02:10:43.010 --> 02:10:46.010 Thank you, Doc. Now, do you know whether or not 1961 02:10:46.790 --> 02:10:52.470 there was a meeting in 1962 in Washington with members of 1962 02:10:52.470 --> 02:10:54.030 representatives of the asbestos 1963 02:10:54.030 --> 02:10:58.570 industry and the U.S. Public Health Service with respect to asbestos and cancer? 1964 02:10:59.450 --> 02:11:00.450 There were several 1965 02:11:00.370 --> 02:11:05.930 meetings. I could call two or three of my people and find out when they were. 1966 02:11:06.030 --> 02:11:07.090 I don't recall the 1967 02:11:07.090 --> 02:11:12.470 exact date of any such meeting okay well if dr mancuso in this letter says that 1968 02:11:12.470 --> 02:11:13.510 these various 1969 02:11:13.510 --> 02:11:18.710 scientific reports the limitations of the industrial hygiene report and other unpublished 1970 02:11:18.710 --> 02:11:22.790 data were reviewed and discussed in a meeting in washington dc with representatives 1971 02:11:22.790 --> 02:11:23.790 of the 1972 02:11:23.210 --> 02:11:28.050 asbestos industry and the u.s public health service over one year ago and the need for 1973 02:11:28.050 --> 02:11:32.470 extensive research expressed you have a recollection that a meeting took place but you 1974 02:11:32.470 --> 02:11:36.190 don't know exactly when is that correct well and perhaps one of my people might 1975 02:11:36.190 --> 02:11:37.190 have attended all 1976 02:11:37.090 --> 02:11:42.510 right now doctor if you would look over uh on page three 1977 02:11:42.510 --> 02:11:48.380 under paragraph 1978 02:11:48.380 --> 02:11:51.020 two do you see where dr 1979 02:11:51.020 --> 02:11:56.740 mancuso discusses take a positive approach to consumer guidance and assistance this 1980 02:11:56.740 --> 02:11:57.740 would take 1981 02:11:57.080 --> 02:12:03.580 several forms and then under a he says the development of a recommended practice manual 1982 02:12:03.580 --> 02:12:09.440 containing illustrative ventilation control designs safe handling procedures 1983 02:12:09.440 --> 02:12:14.380 and other similar guidelines do you see that page 3 sir 1984 02:12:14.380 --> 02:12:17.160 paragraph 2 the pages 1985 02:12:17.160 --> 02:12:23.000 are not I'm sorry no that's all I can come to is the top of the 1986 02:12:23.000 --> 02:12:24.000 page the 1987 02:12:23.360 --> 02:12:29.200 asbestos environmental hazards can be definitely controlled yes yes sir which 1988 02:12:29.200 --> 02:12:34.480 which paragraph that are you on the paragraph 2 do you see that develop oh yes okay 1989 02:12:34.480 --> 02:12:37.000 now you since 1990 02:12:37.000 --> 02:12:42.720 the early 1950s have been advocating the dissemination or spread 1991 02:12:42.720 --> 02:12:44.260 of information to 1992 02:12:44.260 --> 02:12:49.380 consumers with respect to the handling of hazardous substances haven't you yes sir 1993 02:12:49.380 --> 02:12:55.000 and is that what dr. Reid that paragraph a and if you haven't already read it and 1994 02:12:55.000 --> 02:12:56.000 then I'll ask 1995 02:12:55.460 --> 02:13:00.460 your question about it you can if you would read it into the record okay 1996 02:13:04.140 --> 02:13:05.140 because i'll read it 1997 02:13:05.120 --> 02:13:09.720 because if you read it i'll read it because of your voice paragraph a and you 1998 02:13:09.720 --> 02:13:10.720 correct me if i 1999 02:13:10.600 --> 02:13:15.080 don't say something correctly the development of recommended practice manuals containing 2000 02:13:15.700 --> 02:13:21.660 illustrative ventilation control designs safe handling procedures and other similar guidelines 2001 02:13:22.100 --> 02:13:27.000 for the effective control of dust under various types of consumer uses period do 2002 02:13:27.000 --> 02:13:28.000 you see that 2003 02:13:27.420 --> 02:13:28.420 Yes, sir. 2004 02:13:28.060 --> 02:13:33.680 This could be prepared after an analysis of consumer uses and practices has been 2005 02:13:33.680 --> 02:13:37.920 made by the industrial hygiene engineer recommended in paragraph 3. 2006 02:13:37.980 --> 02:13:38.980 Do you see that? 2007 02:13:38.640 --> 02:13:39.640 Yes, sir. 2008 02:13:39.180 --> 02:13:43.600 The ventilation examples and recommended practices would relate to various products 2009 02:13:43.600 --> 02:13:47.020 and cover broadly all operations of consumer use. 2010 02:13:47.220 --> 02:13:48.220 Do you see that? 2011 02:13:48.000 --> 02:13:49.000 Yes, sir. 2012 02:13:48.480 --> 02:13:53.280 This approach could be initiated by a single asbestos industry for competitive 2013 02:13:53.280 --> 02:13:59.260 sales or an agreement developed on an inter-industry basis as to the contents of 2014 02:13:59.260 --> 02:14:00.900 these various manuals and their distribution. 2015 02:14:01.100 --> 02:14:02.100 Do you see that? 2016 02:14:01.840 --> 02:14:02.840 I do. 2017 02:14:02.320 --> 02:14:03.320 All right. 2018 02:14:02.660 --> 02:14:05.260 Number one question with respect to that, Doctor. 2019 02:14:05.260 --> 02:14:10.740 In your review of Johns-Manville records, did you see anywhere where Philip Carey had 2020 02:14:10.740 --> 02:14:14.700 contacted Johns-Manville in respect to an inter 2021 02:14:14.700 --> 02:14:18.740 -industry-wide safe practices manual 2022 02:14:18.740 --> 02:14:19.740 in 1963? 2023 02:14:20.160 --> 02:14:21.160 No, I did not. 2024 02:14:21.260 --> 02:14:22.260 You did not? 2025 02:14:21.840 --> 02:14:22.840 No. 2026 02:14:22.200 --> 02:14:28.520 And, in fact, to your knowledge, was there any safe practices manual published prior 2027 02:14:28.520 --> 02:14:33.180 to the one published by the National Insulation Manufacturers Association in 1969? 2028 02:14:33.760 --> 02:14:34.760 Not that I've seen. 2029 02:14:39.340 --> 02:14:44.760 Doctor, have you had an opportunity to 2030 02:14:44.760 --> 02:14:48.800 review, I know very cursorily or briefly, 2031 02:14:48.920 --> 02:14:52.260 the letter from Dr. Mancuso to Mr. 2032 02:14:53.140 --> 02:14:55.000 Knipa dated May 23, 1963? 2033 02:14:55.640 --> 02:14:56.640 Just this morning, yes. 2034 02:14:56.920 --> 02:15:01.490 Do you see on the last page, page 6, where Dr. 2035 02:15:01.750 --> 02:15:04.430 Mancuso signs consulting medical director? 2036 02:15:04.730 --> 02:15:05.730 Yes, sir. 2037 02:15:05.490 --> 02:15:08.740 Do you know whether or not Dr. 2038 02:15:08.900 --> 02:15:10.760 Mancuso, in fact, in 1963, 2039 02:15:10.760 --> 02:15:14.180 was a consulting medical director to the Philip Carey Corporation. 2040 02:15:14.480 --> 02:15:18.260 On the basis of what I read 2041 02:15:18.260 --> 02:15:23.240 here. Yes. Now, if you would turn to Exhibit K-35, 2042 02:15:23.520 --> 02:15:27.040 which purports to be a letter from Dr. Mancuso 2043 02:15:27.040 --> 02:15:30.740 to Mr. Knippa, plant manager, dated August 15, 1963. 2044 02:15:31.380 --> 02:15:34.300 Do you see that? Yes, sir. Okay. Now, 2045 02:15:34.300 --> 02:15:38.820 Now, in the letter, do you see the second paragraph? 2046 02:15:40.200 --> 02:15:41.200 Yes, sir. 2047 02:15:42.240 --> 02:15:44.160 And tell me if I read correctly. 2048 02:15:45.240 --> 02:15:46.820 These are recent articles. 2049 02:15:46.920 --> 02:15:50.980 The most recent and perhaps the most important is the paper presented at the 2050 02:15:50.980 --> 02:15:55.260 Medical Association meeting in Atlantic City on June 17, 1963, 2051 02:15:55.940 --> 02:15:58.180 which has not yet appeared in medical literature. 2052 02:15:58.340 --> 02:15:59.340 Do you see that? 2053 02:15:59.140 --> 02:16:00.140 Yes, sir. 2054 02:15:59.740 --> 02:16:00.740 All right. 2055 02:16:00.200 --> 02:16:04.420 Let me ask you, Doctor, if in fact Dr. 2056 02:16:04.740 --> 02:16:10.280 Selikoff's paper that we talked about earlier, Exhibit 27, was not read 2057 02:16:10.280 --> 02:16:14.660 at the American Medical Association meeting June 17, 1963. 2058 02:16:15.650 --> 02:16:18.330 It was. 2059 02:16:20.190 --> 02:16:24.830 I think your exhibit designation is not correct. 2060 02:16:25.600 --> 02:16:26.950 It might not be, Mr. Wilson. 2061 02:16:26.950 --> 02:16:29.190 It ought to be Exhibit 33. 2062 02:16:29.650 --> 02:16:31.990 Okay, that's Exhibit 33, Dr. Coven. 2063 02:16:33.010 --> 02:16:37.650 Now, Dr. Kotin, assume, if you will, sir, that 2064 02:16:37.650 --> 02:16:40.470 accompanying the letter, which is 2065 02:16:40.470 --> 02:16:45.930 Exhibit 35, was a copy of Dr. Selikoff's paper entitled, Asbestos 2066 02:16:45.930 --> 02:16:46.930 Exposure and 2067 02:16:46.630 --> 02:16:52.170 Neoplasia. In other words, that along with this letter of August 15, 1963, was 2068 02:16:52.170 --> 02:16:56.070 enclosed a copy of Dr. Selikoff's paper. Would you assume that, please? 2069 02:16:56.370 --> 02:16:57.370 Yes, sir. 2070 02:16:56.850 --> 02:17:02.270 based on that assumption do you believe that this letter and the previous letter 2071 02:17:02.270 --> 02:17:03.270 with respect to a 2072 02:17:03.230 --> 02:17:08.830 safe practices manual and dr selikoff's report of june 17 2073 02:17:08.830 --> 02:17:11.670 1963 on insulation workers which we 2074 02:17:11.670 --> 02:17:15.950 have discussed provided a basis for action for the philip carey manufacturing 2075 02:17:15.950 --> 02:17:17.070 company with respect 2076 02:17:17.070 --> 02:17:22.730 to labeling their products or preparing a safe practices manual well i certainly 2077 02:17:22.730 --> 02:17:23.730 should have 2078 02:17:23.130 --> 02:17:28.830 pursue this thank you now doctor if you would turn to k-36 2079 02:17:28.830 --> 02:17:29.890 k 2080 02:17:35.230 --> 02:17:39.290 -36 is um the september 1963 report 2081 02:17:42.420 --> 02:17:48.900 much dated september by dr mancuso you see it sir it's dated september 23rd yes sir 1963. 2082 02:17:49.280 --> 02:17:50.280 yes sir 2083 02:17:49.580 --> 02:17:52.780 okay would you turn over to page 10. do 2084 02:17:59.980 --> 02:18:03.520 you see paragraph four yes sir and correct me if i read 2085 02:18:03.520 --> 02:18:09.120 this correct incorrect number four and this is under the previous page 2086 02:18:09.120 --> 02:18:10.960 recommendations okay 2087 02:18:12.900 --> 02:18:18.880 discontinue the practice of placing on philip carey's payroll employees of subcontractors 2088 02:18:18.880 --> 02:18:23.220 in different areas of the country because of the occupational disease liability 2089 02:18:23.900 --> 02:18:28.020 it has already been established by the recent studies supported by the union that 2090 02:18:28.020 --> 02:18:29.020 the union 2091 02:18:28.380 --> 02:18:33.700 members have a high lung cancer rate. It is highly likely that these installers 2092 02:18:33.700 --> 02:18:38.540 exposed to asbestos over the years and generally continuing the same type of 2093 02:18:38.540 --> 02:18:43.800 work will develop high lung cancer rates. It is inadvisable to place the company 2094 02:18:43.800 --> 02:18:47.680 in the position of defending against such claims and having such suits 2095 02:18:47.680 --> 02:18:53.400 associated with Philip Carey. Such legal and medical costs can be avoided as well 2096 02:18:53.400 --> 02:18:58.020 as workman's compensation claims. Such employees should remain the employees of 2097 02:18:58.020 --> 02:19:03.700 the subcontractors parenthesis example noted in a national study dash death 2098 02:19:03.700 --> 02:19:04.800 certificate of lung 2099 02:19:04.800 --> 02:19:09.560 cancer case reported as an employee of the philip carey manufacturing company in 2100 02:19:09.560 --> 02:19:11.620 chicago dash actually 2101 02:19:11.620 --> 02:19:16.980 a subcontract employee now doctor do you understand in that paragraph that dr 2102 02:19:16.980 --> 02:19:18.420 mancuso is talking about 2103 02:19:18.420 --> 02:19:23.580 insulation workers is that the question i object to the phone go ahead doc 2104 02:19:23.580 --> 02:19:26.260 yes he's talking about 2105 02:19:26.260 --> 02:19:31.980 insulation workers yes doctor is this information contained on page 10 a 2106 02:19:31.980 --> 02:19:33.220 sufficient amount of 2107 02:19:33.220 --> 02:19:38.040 information on which philip carey should have undertook some activity with respect 2108 02:19:38.040 --> 02:19:39.040 to labeling 2109 02:19:38.600 --> 02:19:41.900 their products well they should have pursued it how they ultimately would have 2110 02:19:41.900 --> 02:19:42.900 wound up 2111 02:19:42.440 --> 02:19:47.560 i guess would be determined by a lot of factors all right now if you would turn to 2112 02:19:47.560 --> 02:19:48.560 page five 2113 02:19:54.720 --> 02:20:00.180 off. You see paragraph 2? Yes, sir. 2114 02:20:01.020 --> 02:20:05.260 Tell me if I'm reading it correct. Conduct medical studies 2115 02:20:05.260 --> 02:20:11.140 which have a direct bearing on sales of the company's products and legal liability through 2116 02:20:11.140 --> 02:20:15.560 a medical director, medical consultant, university contract, or other arrangement. 2117 02:20:15.720 --> 02:20:16.720 Do you see that? 2118 02:20:16.460 --> 02:20:21.040 Yes, sir. This relates to the questions which are inevitable and will be raised by 2119 02:20:21.040 --> 02:20:22.040 all users 2120 02:20:21.740 --> 02:20:26.100 and consumers and in general by the public because of the accumulation of 2121 02:20:26.100 --> 02:20:30.820 recent scientific reports showing the positive association between asbestos 2122 02:20:30.820 --> 02:20:33.900 and cancer of the lung, pleura, and peritoneum. 2123 02:20:34.140 --> 02:20:36.100 Did I read that correctly? Yes, sir. 2124 02:20:37.120 --> 02:20:42.100 In addition to cancer, positive association also exists with cor pulmonale, 2125 02:20:42.160 --> 02:20:47.320 parenthesis, right heart failure due to the fibrosis of the lungs, end of the parenthesis. 2126 02:20:48.120 --> 02:20:51.880 Pulmonary emphysema, parenthesis, which follows fibrosis, end of parenthesis, 2127 02:20:51.960 --> 02:20:55.540 chronic bronchitis, bronchiectasis, and pneumonitis. 2128 02:20:55.620 --> 02:20:56.620 Did I read that correctly? 2129 02:20:56.640 --> 02:20:57.640 You did. 2130 02:20:57.240 --> 02:21:01.160 As a consequence, there's a formidable array of medical problems 2131 02:21:01.160 --> 02:21:04.920 now being recognized as directly related to asbestos exposure. 2132 02:21:05.220 --> 02:21:06.220 Did I read that correctly? 2133 02:21:06.560 --> 02:21:07.560 You did. 2134 02:21:07.100 --> 02:21:11.100 Doctor, is this paragraph another piece of information 2135 02:21:11.100 --> 02:21:14.280 that should have prompted action by the Philip Carey Manufacturing Company 2136 02:21:14.280 --> 02:21:18.440 with respect to labeling their products and advising consumers of the various 2137 02:21:18.440 --> 02:21:23.620 diseases associated with asbestos they should have pursued some action as a 2138 02:21:23.620 --> 02:21:28.200 result of this yes now if you would look at page 6 first 2139 02:21:32.610 --> 02:21:33.970 paragraph internally 2140 02:21:33.970 --> 02:21:38.050 within the company the question has been raised as to why medical problems 2141 02:21:38.050 --> 02:21:42.070 particularly relating to cancer and asbestos were not recognized before 2142 02:21:42.770 --> 02:21:47.670 actually they were recognized but the asbestos industry chose to ignore and 2143 02:21:47.670 --> 02:21:53.690 deny their existence evidence of this was as recent as the industrial hygiene foundation 2144 02:21:53.690 --> 02:21:59.330 study sponsored by the asbestos industry at a cost of forty thousand dollars which provided 2145 02:21:59.330 --> 02:22:04.490 a basis for the companies to argue against this recognition of asbestos and lung cancer 2146 02:22:04.910 --> 02:22:09.850 the report when properly analyzed had many weaknesses upon which the conclusion was drawn 2147 02:22:10.250 --> 02:22:14.990 and these weaknesses have been recognized in scientific circles reputation does 2148 02:22:14.990 --> 02:22:15.990 that mean 2149 02:22:15.390 --> 02:22:21.090 what does reputation mean refuse or what do you understand reputation 2150 02:22:21.090 --> 02:22:22.090 to mean 2151 02:22:21.570 --> 02:22:26.470 doctor rebuttal to rebuttal of this report has already appeared in press and 2152 02:22:26.470 --> 02:22:30.190 will appear in a number of publications consequently the aspect of industry 2153 02:22:30.190 --> 02:22:34.950 cannot rely on this report for legal defense now are you familiar with the 2154 02:22:34.950 --> 02:22:38.870 study that was funded by the asbestos industry and conducted by the Industrial 2155 02:23:07.430 --> 02:23:08.850 Hygiene Foundation 2156 02:23:16.030 --> 02:23:21.810 The doctor, are you familiar with any cancer study funded by the asbestos industry 2157 02:23:21.810 --> 02:23:23.870 and conducted by the Industrial Hygiene Foundation? 2158 02:23:24.350 --> 02:23:26.450 I guess it refers to the Braun and Truan study. 2159 02:23:26.810 --> 02:23:27.810 I'm sorry. 2160 02:23:27.690 --> 02:23:31.370 The Brown, T-R-A-U-N, and Truan, T-R-U- A-N. 2161 02:23:31.370 --> 02:23:37.280 in doctor assumed 2162 02:23:37.280 --> 02:23:42.320 that the philip k manufacturing company placed no warning labels on their 2163 02:23:42.320 --> 02:23:47.480 insulation products until 1972. do you have an opinion 2164 02:23:47.480 --> 02:23:50.060 as to whether or not the philip 2165 02:23:50.060 --> 02:23:54.820 carey manufacturing company acted reasonably and responsibly in the light of the 2166 02:23:54.820 --> 02:23:55.820 three documents 2167 02:23:55.500 --> 02:23:57.720 which we've described here today. 2168 02:23:57.980 --> 02:23:59.540 I object to respond to the question. 2169 02:23:59.660 --> 02:24:02.860 I remember that it's not the least of which is that it presupposes 2170 02:24:02.860 --> 02:24:05.760 that the Philip Carey Company was made back in an insulation product 2171 02:24:05.760 --> 02:24:07.080 that was only from the 70s. 2172 02:24:07.560 --> 02:24:08.560 Go ahead, Doctor. 2173 02:24:08.700 --> 02:24:09.720 Repeat the question. 2174 02:24:09.880 --> 02:24:10.880 All right. 2175 02:24:10.600 --> 02:24:13.600 Doctor, assume that the Philip Carey Manufacturing Company 2176 02:24:13.600 --> 02:24:16.860 continued to market a thermal insulation product 2177 02:24:16.860 --> 02:24:19.700 containing asbestos and soil sometime in 1969. 2178 02:24:20.420 --> 02:24:23.600 Assume further that the Philip Carey Manufacturing Company 2179 02:24:23.600 --> 02:24:28.860 continued to distribute asbestos fibers called asbestos shorts 2180 02:24:28.860 --> 02:24:30.560 as an insulating 2181 02:24:30.560 --> 02:24:36.420 cement up until 1972 and assumed that the full of care 2182 02:24:36.420 --> 02:24:37.420 manufacturing company 2183 02:24:37.420 --> 02:24:42.200 neither placed warning labels on either of those products or distributed a safe 2184 02:24:42.200 --> 02:24:47.200 practices manual to consumers or users of those products do you have an opinion 2185 02:24:47.200 --> 02:24:52.860 as to whether or not based on exhibits 34 35 and 36 the Philip 2186 02:24:52.860 --> 02:24:53.860 Carey company 2187 02:24:53.500 --> 02:24:59.260 me acted reasonably and responsibly after 1963 well 2188 02:25:01.180 --> 02:25:06.160 just within the limits 2189 02:25:06.160 --> 02:25:10.500 of the question that you asked they could have been more responsible yes sir 2190 02:25:10.500 --> 02:25:14.760 Thank you. Can we take a short break, Mr. Wilson? I'm moving on to another subject. 2191 02:25:14.960 --> 02:25:15.960 All right. 2192 02:25:15.260 --> 02:25:16.260 Ten minutes? 2193 02:25:16.080 --> 02:25:17.080 Yes. 2194 02:25:19.400 --> 02:25:20.900 I've never seen this, you know. 2195 02:25:22.500 --> 02:25:25.060 Are you ready? 2196 02:25:28.890 --> 02:25:34.710 Now, Dr. Kotin, we talked yesterday about the threshold limit value 2197 02:25:34.710 --> 02:25:36.230 for asbestos. 2198 02:25:37.030 --> 02:25:42.390 And would you tell the jury again your understanding of what the threshold limit 2199 02:25:42.390 --> 02:25:44.350 value for asbestos was? 2200 02:25:44.350 --> 02:25:50.330 Well, historically it was 5 million particles per 2201 02:25:50.330 --> 02:25:57.300 cubic feet from 1938 on to the late 1960s 2202 02:25:57.300 --> 02:26:03.140 where it was then restated in terms of fibers 2203 02:26:03.140 --> 02:26:08.770 rather than dust, successively was reduced 2204 02:26:08.770 --> 02:26:14.930 from 12 to 2 fibers per cc in the period between the late 60s and 1976. 2205 02:26:14.930 --> 02:26:18.950 1976. Now, as I understand it, the threshold limit value for 2206 02:26:18.950 --> 02:26:23.050 air that contains asbestos dust 2207 02:26:23.050 --> 02:26:28.890 was based in large part on Dr. Dreessen's study of 1938, 2208 02:26:29.310 --> 02:26:30.410 which you talked about on direct 2209 02:26:30.410 --> 02:26:35.870 examination. Correct. And as I understand it, you were personally unaware of Dr. 2210 02:26:35.930 --> 02:26:36.930 Dreessen's study 2211 02:26:36.610 --> 02:26:40.330 until you went with the government sometime either in 1959 or 1960. 2212 02:26:40.830 --> 02:26:43.670 Correct. Now, do you recall 2213 02:26:43.670 --> 02:26:48.870 all uh dr berryweather's report that you talked about on direct in 1930 2214 02:26:48.870 --> 02:26:50.810 where he said that 2215 02:26:50.810 --> 02:26:56.630 appropriate methods for suppression of asbestos dust may only be fully determined 2216 02:26:56.630 --> 02:26:57.890 when the harmful 2217 02:26:57.890 --> 02:27:03.890 effects of low concentrations of dust are found out do you recall that yes sir and 2218 02:27:03.890 --> 02:27:04.890 do you agree 2219 02:27:04.190 --> 02:27:09.730 with that yes sir all right doctor are you aware of any dust 2220 02:27:09.730 --> 02:27:13.230 studies conducted by any asbestos 2221 02:27:13.230 --> 02:27:17.690 manufacturing company between the years 1938 and 1964 2222 02:27:17.690 --> 02:27:23.450 sporadic ones are you aware of any other than 2223 02:27:23.450 --> 02:27:29.370 dust counts any attempt to determine the level at which 2224 02:27:29.370 --> 02:27:32.330 disease would not appear in workers exposed 2225 02:27:32.330 --> 02:27:38.320 to asbestos i'm unaware doctor in 2226 02:27:38.320 --> 02:27:44.340 fact the only dust study conducted by anyone before 1964 in 2227 02:27:44.340 --> 02:27:48.760 regard to insulation workers and shipyard workers was a Fleischer study in 1946. 2228 02:27:49.280 --> 02:27:50.280 Isn't that correct? 2229 02:27:49.960 --> 02:27:55.940 Right. Now, doctor, do you agree that if the asbestos industry knew 2230 02:27:55.940 --> 02:27:57.680 that exposures above 2231 02:27:57.680 --> 02:28:03.260 five million particles per cubic foot were dangerous, that they should have 2232 02:28:03.260 --> 02:28:04.260 advised any 2233 02:28:04.240 --> 02:28:10.220 users of their products to avoid levels above five million particles per cubic foot? 2234 02:28:14.340 --> 02:28:20.260 or not to the cost of agriculture to give an opinion and to be tantamount to 2235 02:28:20.260 --> 02:28:21.260 a legal 2236 02:28:20.620 --> 02:28:24.400 conclusion or a comment on the cost of the insurance business? 2237 02:28:24.900 --> 02:28:26.920 Go ahead, Doctor. Do you understand the question? 2238 02:28:27.880 --> 02:28:29.120 I'll read it again. 2239 02:28:29.340 --> 02:28:35.020 Do you agree that if the asbestos, let me start off by 2240 02:28:35.020 --> 02:28:36.020 asking you this. 2241 02:28:35.800 --> 02:28:41.940 I believe you said earlier that the asbestos industry knew by 1938 that the threshold 2242 02:28:41.940 --> 02:28:46.220 limit value was five million particles per cubic foot or should have known yes sir 2243 02:28:46.220 --> 02:28:48.560 and that levels 2244 02:28:48.560 --> 02:28:54.000 above five million particles per cubic foot were potentially dangerous yes sir do 2245 02:28:54.000 --> 02:28:55.000 you agree that 2246 02:28:54.780 --> 02:29:00.080 if the asbestos industry knew that exposures above five million particles per cubic 2247 02:29:00.080 --> 02:29:01.080 foot were 2248 02:29:00.620 --> 02:29:05.600 dangerous that they should have advised any users of products which contained 2249 02:29:05.600 --> 02:29:07.480 asbestos to avoid 2250 02:29:07.480 --> 02:29:12.320 levels of exposure above five million particles per cubic foot I would have 2251 02:29:12.320 --> 02:29:18.700 recommended doctor do you know of any warning label or any communication by 2252 02:29:18.700 --> 02:29:24.860 any asbestos company between the years 1938 and 1964 to insulation workers with 2253 02:29:24.860 --> 02:29:30.460 respect to avoiding exposure to levels above the threshold on the day I know 2254 02:29:30.460 --> 02:29:36.320 Now, doctor, if exposures by users, in fact, exceeded 2255 02:29:36.320 --> 02:29:38.560 five million particles per cubic 2256 02:29:38.560 --> 02:29:43.020 foot, do you agree that warning labels should have been placed on products? 2257 02:29:43.200 --> 02:29:47.540 No, I agree that exposure 2258 02:29:47.540 --> 02:29:52.980 to concentrations 2259 02:29:52.980 --> 02:29:57.420 greater than five million particles per cubic 2260 02:29:57.420 --> 02:30:02.100 be cooked who were above the threshold limit value and therefore capable of being potentially 2261 02:30:02.100 --> 02:30:05.680 hazardous yes sir and that should have been communicated to users of the product 2262 02:30:08.660 --> 02:30:12.380 how yeah i would do it i would do it there's no way for a worker to know 2263 02:30:12.380 --> 02:30:15.900 that what he's breathing is dangerous unless he's told it is doctor that's correct 2264 02:30:24.880 --> 02:30:30.500 Now, Doctor, if you would look at the Dreessen study that I believe was identified 2265 02:30:30.500 --> 02:30:32.280 as K-3. 2266 02:30:32.740 --> 02:30:33.740 Yes, sir. 2267 02:30:35.900 --> 02:30:37.600 That's what it says on here, K-3. 2268 02:30:40.070 --> 02:30:43.350 Now, if you would, turn with me to page 23. 2269 02:30:49.470 --> 02:30:54.960 if you see a paragraph entitled 2270 02:30:54.960 --> 02:31:00.660 particle size yes sir and tell me if i read this correctly 2271 02:31:00.660 --> 02:31:06.200 the measurement of dust particles suspended in the air of asbestos textile 2272 02:31:06.200 --> 02:31:07.340 plants is difficult 2273 02:31:07.340 --> 02:31:12.760 because of the presence of both asbestos and cotton fibers the differentiation 2274 02:31:12.760 --> 02:31:13.960 of these fibers 2275 02:31:13.960 --> 02:31:18.420 under the microscope is not always possible especially when the fibers are short 2276 02:31:18.420 --> 02:31:19.420 and fine 2277 02:31:18.860 --> 02:31:22.560 Did I read that correctly? Yes, sir. Now, isn't it a fact, doctor, that the 2278 02:31:22.560 --> 02:31:26.180 threshold limit value of five million particles per cubic foot, 2279 02:31:26.320 --> 02:31:30.900 based on the Dreessen study in 1938, counted all particles? 2280 02:31:31.580 --> 02:31:32.580 Asbestos, 2281 02:31:32.620 --> 02:31:37.600 cotton, rock, or any other substance that might have been in the air that was sampled. 2282 02:31:37.900 --> 02:31:38.900 That is correct. 2283 02:31:39.600 --> 02:31:40.600 Now, 2284 02:31:41.240 --> 02:31:47.380 if, let's take a plant where asbestos insulation products are manufactured, 2285 02:31:48.140 --> 02:31:53.300 and are you familiar with a product that was called 85% magnesium? 2286 02:31:53.880 --> 02:31:56.740 Yes sir. And was not the 2287 02:31:56.740 --> 02:32:02.020 product 85% magnesium an insulation product that contained magnesium 2288 02:32:02.020 --> 02:32:05.180 carbonate and about 15% 2289 02:32:05.180 --> 02:32:11.020 asbestos? That's as I understand it yes. And do you know that when the product 2290 02:32:11.020 --> 02:32:12.780 was baked and came 2291 02:32:12.780 --> 02:32:16.200 out on the assembly line that it was in shape with saws? 2292 02:32:16.900 --> 02:32:19.240 It was treated, yes. 2293 02:32:20.220 --> 02:32:25.840 Trim. Trim. Trim. And in the trimming of that product, air, dust would have been 2294 02:32:25.840 --> 02:32:28.960 liberated. It could have been if there weren't as often. Right. 2295 02:32:29.400 --> 02:32:30.520 And to the extent 2296 02:32:30.520 --> 02:32:36.700 that there was dust in the air, that dust from the 85% magnesium product will 2297 02:32:36.700 --> 02:32:41.260 contain some asbestos and some magnesium carbonate, is that correct? 2298 02:32:41.260 --> 02:32:47.200 that's reasonable all right now doctor do you agree that anyone 2299 02:32:47.200 --> 02:32:48.480 who read threesome 2300 02:32:49.120 --> 02:32:52.740 should have reached the same conclusion that you've expressed and that is 2301 02:32:52.740 --> 02:32:55.360 that it counted all particles and not just aspects 2302 02:33:02.740 --> 02:33:03.940 go ahead 2303 02:33:03.940 --> 02:33:09.040 doctor 2304 02:33:10.390 --> 02:33:12.990 repeat your question let's rephrase it then 2305 02:33:14.270 --> 02:33:19.410 Do you agree that any person, any reasonable construction 2306 02:33:19.410 --> 02:33:24.870 of the Dreessen report would have concluded that the standard measured all particles 2307 02:33:24.870 --> 02:33:26.090 and not just asbestos? 2308 02:33:27.050 --> 02:33:28.550 I would have assumed that. 2309 02:33:28.690 --> 02:33:34.130 I would have, to me, it would have encompassed what you're saying, all particles. 2310 02:33:34.470 --> 02:33:35.470 All right. 2311 02:33:36.070 --> 02:33:39.310 Now, Doctor, turn, if you would, to page 46. 2312 02:33:51.670 --> 02:33:52.670 Yes, sir. 2313 02:33:52.390 --> 02:33:57.530 Now, do you see down at the bottom of the page the paragraph that starts, about? 2314 02:33:59.110 --> 02:34:00.110 Yes, sir. 2315 02:33:59.830 --> 02:34:05.470 It says, about 15 months before the study was begun, approximately 150 workers 2316 02:34:05.470 --> 02:34:10.770 in these asbestos textile factories were replaced by workers with little or no 2317 02:34:10.770 --> 02:34:11.910 previous exposure. 2318 02:34:12.450 --> 02:34:16.610 Although an effort was made to examine as many as possible of these former workers, 2319 02:34:16.790 --> 02:34:18.410 less than half could be examined. 2320 02:34:18.610 --> 02:34:19.610 Do you see that? 2321 02:34:19.210 --> 02:34:20.210 Yes, sir. 2322 02:34:19.690 --> 02:34:20.690 All right. 2323 02:34:20.350 --> 02:34:24.950 And then he says, partly as a result of these personnel changes, the group of 2324 02:34:24.950 --> 02:34:29.770 employees examined in this study had an unusually low average age. 2325 02:34:30.030 --> 02:34:31.030 Do you see that? 2326 02:34:30.630 --> 02:34:31.630 Yes, sir. 2327 02:34:31.250 --> 02:34:37.190 There was an abnormally large percentage of workers with less than five 2328 02:34:37.190 --> 02:34:40.150 years' employment in the asbestos textile industry 2329 02:34:40.150 --> 02:34:45.590 and an abnormally small percentage of persons who had worked 10 years or more in 2330 02:34:45.590 --> 02:34:46.590 the industry. 2331 02:34:46.030 --> 02:34:47.030 Do you see that? 2332 02:34:46.730 --> 02:34:47.730 Yes, sir. 2333 02:34:47.070 --> 02:34:52.790 Now, by 1938, one of the, it was well established, was it not, Doctor, and Dr. 2334 02:34:52.930 --> 02:34:58.570 Dreessen recognized it, that length of employment was one factor that you had to put 2335 02:34:58.570 --> 02:35:01.150 in the equation of dose response. 2336 02:35:02.210 --> 02:35:03.210 Yes, sir. 2337 02:35:02.950 --> 02:35:03.950 All right. 2338 02:35:07.180 --> 02:35:09.020 Please turn over to page 58. 2339 02:35:19.060 --> 02:35:23.600 Now, do you see there's a bunch of graphs in that report? 2340 02:35:23.820 --> 02:35:26.500 Do you see that on this page, page 58, there's two graphs? 2341 02:35:26.780 --> 02:35:27.780 Yes, sir. 2342 02:35:27.240 --> 02:35:30.140 All right, right in the middle of them, smack dab in the middle of them. 2343 02:35:30.260 --> 02:35:33.200 There's a sentence that begins, many. 2344 02:35:33.740 --> 02:35:34.740 Do you see that? 2345 02:35:35.520 --> 02:35:36.520 Yes, sir. 2346 02:35:36.260 --> 02:35:39.760 It says, many of the percentage values must be viewed with caution 2347 02:35:39.760 --> 02:35:42.720 because they are based on small numbers of workers. 2348 02:35:42.960 --> 02:35:47.200 This is particularly true in the groups with more than 10 years' employment. 2349 02:35:47.720 --> 02:35:51.080 Now, have you had a chance to study these graphs before today? 2350 02:35:51.520 --> 02:35:53.120 I've read them. I've seen them many times. 2351 02:35:53.420 --> 02:35:57.400 And what Dr. Dreessen is talking about is there were so few people 2352 02:35:57.400 --> 02:36:03.000 who've worked for more than 10 years that he expressed caution that the conclusions with 2353 02:36:03.000 --> 02:36:07.980 respect to people exposed more than 10 years must be tempered or cautioned with the 2354 02:36:07.980 --> 02:36:08.980 fact that they 2355 02:36:08.580 --> 02:36:14.140 didn't have a lot of people in that correct that is correct but it was as i say 2356 02:36:14.140 --> 02:36:15.540 contained in the 2357 02:36:15.540 --> 02:36:19.700 paper which looked at the conclusions that i read yesterday we're going to come to 2358 02:36:19.700 --> 02:36:20.700 the conclusion 2359 02:36:20.020 --> 02:36:25.740 correct now do you agree uh 2360 02:36:25.740 --> 02:36:28.320 turn over to page 90 please grass 2361 02:36:36.800 --> 02:36:40.660 do you see a discussion of the 2362 02:36:40.660 --> 02:36:46.140 number of people who had asbestosis and the dust counts and the number of years 2363 02:36:46.140 --> 02:36:47.140 they were working 2364 02:36:48.460 --> 02:36:54.360 yes sir all right do you see what dr jason says the percentage of persons with asbestosis 2365 02:36:54.360 --> 02:36:58.020 increases greatly with increasing length of employment. 2366 02:36:59.660 --> 02:37:03.800 Lanza, McConnell, and Fennell reported a similar trend. 2367 02:37:04.040 --> 02:37:06.400 Their percentage values are higher than these. 2368 02:37:06.800 --> 02:37:12.020 There are two explanations for the small number of persons employed 15 years or more. 2369 02:37:12.420 --> 02:37:16.400 And then he goes on to explain that the textile plants have not been in existence, 2370 02:37:17.680 --> 02:37:20.120 some of them, for as few as six years. 2371 02:37:20.200 --> 02:37:21.200 Do you see that? 2372 02:37:20.900 --> 02:37:21.900 Yes, sir. 2373 02:37:21.380 --> 02:37:26.520 Now, Doctor, don't you agree that it was dogma 2374 02:37:26.520 --> 02:37:32.200 in 1938 that, as a general rule, it took 10 years of exposure 2375 02:37:32.200 --> 02:37:35.960 before you could expect to see X-ray changes of asbestosis? 2376 02:37:36.620 --> 02:37:37.620 Yes, sir. 2377 02:37:39.140 --> 02:37:43.320 Now, on page 91, I'm 2378 02:37:57.240 --> 02:38:00.620 looking for what I'm trying to point you to the place I wanted to read to save a 2379 02:38:00.620 --> 02:38:02.840 little time, Doctor, but I'm now having some difficulty here. 2380 02:38:03.680 --> 02:38:08.640 You see, at the first sentence, it says the incidence of asbestosis increases with 2381 02:38:08.640 --> 02:38:09.880 increasing dust concentration. 2382 02:38:10.600 --> 02:38:16.320 I believe you stated that that's the other part of the dose-response curve, length 2383 02:38:16.320 --> 02:38:18.680 of employment and intensity of exposure. 2384 02:38:18.980 --> 02:38:19.980 Isn't that correct? 2385 02:38:19.840 --> 02:38:20.840 Correct. 2386 02:38:22.520 --> 02:38:28.520 Now, do you see in the paragraph entitled Threshold Concentration of 2387 02:38:28.520 --> 02:38:29.520 Asbestos Dust? 2388 02:38:30.080 --> 02:38:31.080 You see that? 2389 02:38:31.160 --> 02:38:32.160 Yes, sir. 2390 02:38:31.640 --> 02:38:32.640 All right. 2391 02:38:33.080 --> 02:38:37.540 You see the sentence that reads, because of the importance of the problem, it seems 2392 02:38:37.540 --> 02:38:42.940 to be desirable to use such data as are at hand to define tentative 2393 02:38:42.940 --> 02:38:47.620 safe working conditions that may serve as standards for the guidance of factory 2394 02:38:47.620 --> 02:38:51.280 managers and engineers until more complete data are available. 2395 02:38:51.320 --> 02:38:52.320 Do you see that? 2396 02:38:52.060 --> 02:38:53.060 Yes, sir. 2397 02:38:52.820 --> 02:38:58.360 Now, isn't it a fact, doctor, that Dr. Dreessen's conclusions were set forth to be 2398 02:38:58.360 --> 02:39:01.460 tentative until more comprehensive data could come along? 2399 02:39:01.460 --> 02:39:07.460 I think all special limited values recognize the fact that as new data are 2400 02:39:07.460 --> 02:39:09.580 generated, the numbers have to be looked at. 2401 02:39:09.740 --> 02:39:14.720 Right. And one of the problems that he addressed was the fact that there hadn't 2402 02:39:14.720 --> 02:39:20.460 been enough opportunity to observe long- term, low-level exposure 2403 02:39:20.460 --> 02:39:21.600 to asbestos deaths. 2404 02:39:21.720 --> 02:39:22.720 Isn't that correct? 2405 02:39:22.520 --> 02:39:23.520 Yes, sir. 2406 02:39:28.310 --> 02:39:33.730 Now, do you know whether or not any of the asbestos companies ran any tests 2407 02:39:33.730 --> 02:39:39.610 from 1938 to 1964 on their own employees to find out the 2408 02:39:39.610 --> 02:39:43.490 effects of long-term, low-level asbestos exposure? 2409 02:39:43.910 --> 02:39:47.430 Well, they monitored their population, their work populations. 2410 02:39:48.140 --> 02:39:51.130 Did they set up studies, a structured study? 2411 02:39:52.230 --> 02:39:53.450 I'm unaware of any. 2412 02:39:53.590 --> 02:39:54.590 Okay. 2413 02:39:53.930 --> 02:39:59.010 In retrospect, Doctor, as a Monday morning quarterback a little bit, 2414 02:40:00.490 --> 02:40:04.270 wasn't it important to have tested Dr. 2415 02:40:04.430 --> 02:40:05.710 Dreessen's tentative conclusions 2416 02:40:05.710 --> 02:40:11.470 and find out whether or not long-term, low-level exposure to asbestos dust might be harmful? 2417 02:40:13.610 --> 02:40:18.590 A monitoring of the population on the basis of both exposure 2418 02:40:18.590 --> 02:40:21.310 and response 2419 02:40:23.010 --> 02:40:29.010 was in order, yes. All right. Now 2420 02:40:29.010 --> 02:40:31.290 look up back on page 90. Since 2421 02:40:39.320 --> 02:40:41.580 there is no satisfactory way 2422 02:40:41.580 --> 02:40:47.680 of locating and examining persons who drop out of an industry because of disability incurred 2423 02:40:47.680 --> 02:40:53.120 therein, the percentage values of the foregoing tables are necessarily minimal 2424 02:40:53.120 --> 02:40:54.240 estimates of the 2425 02:40:54.240 --> 02:40:58.620 prevalence of asbestosis. Do you see that? Yes, sir. Now is that what's known as 2426 02:40:58.620 --> 02:40:59.620 the healthy 2427 02:40:59.260 --> 02:41:05.120 worker syndrome in epidemiology I don't think that's what he 2428 02:41:05.120 --> 02:41:06.120 means there all 2429 02:41:05.980 --> 02:41:09.940 right now would you look on page 93 mm-hmm 2430 02:41:18.000 --> 02:41:22.900 yes sir discussed earlier that 2431 02:41:22.900 --> 02:41:28.680 before dr. Dreessen got down there to run his study 150 of the employees were 2432 02:41:28.680 --> 02:41:33.800 replaced do you remember that yes sir now let's let's look at what dr. 2433 02:41:40.880 --> 02:41:41.880 Dreessen 2434 02:41:41.500 --> 02:41:47.260 workers employed at the time of the study had asbestos I'm sorry page 93 2435 02:41:47.260 --> 02:41:53.120 second paragraph the paragraph starting according to table 43 it's 2436 02:41:55.360 --> 02:41:56.360 the second 2437 02:41:55.840 --> 02:42:01.020 sentence eight percent go ahead I'm with you all right eight percent of the 378 2438 02:42:01.020 --> 02:42:05.780 workers employed at the time of the study had asbestos this does not 2439 02:42:05.780 --> 02:42:10.740 completely represent the incidence of asbestosis because about a hundred and 2440 02:42:10.740 --> 02:42:16.460 50 employees were discharged from these factories 15 months before the present 2441 02:42:16.460 --> 02:42:17.460 study was made 2442 02:42:17.940 --> 02:42:24.300 many of the discharged asbestos workers had asbestosis as the reports of shule donnelly 2443 02:42:24.300 --> 02:42:29.760 and mcfeeters show although an attempt was made to examine as many as possible of 2444 02:42:29.760 --> 02:42:30.760 these discharged 2445 02:42:30.420 --> 02:42:35.680 cases only 69 could be examined 43 of whom 2446 02:42:35.680 --> 02:42:39.560 had asbestosis according to the diagnostic standards 2447 02:42:39.560 --> 02:42:45.460 employed in the study now if I'm not much of a mathematician doctor but I 2448 02:42:45.460 --> 02:42:51.100 believe 43 of 69 is over 60 percent in that correct yes sir 2449 02:42:51.100 --> 02:42:52.280 do you think that 2450 02:42:52.280 --> 02:42:55.960 the fact that 150 workers were discharged before dr. 2451 02:42:56.080 --> 02:42:57.080 Driesen got there 2452 02:42:56.960 --> 02:43:01.760 and they're over 60 percent of the ones who were discharged had asbestosis 2453 02:43:01.760 --> 02:43:05.940 affected the conclusions that were drawn by dr. Driesen he 2454 02:43:08.370 --> 02:43:09.650 obviously did not 2455 02:43:09.650 --> 02:43:15.150 include him include him in his study when he made conclusions doctor i'm advised 2456 02:43:15.150 --> 02:43:16.150 that the take is 2457 02:43:16.010 --> 02:43:21.890 exhausted then we need to quit everybody let's start 2458 02:43:21.890 --> 02:43:24.810 break because unless you want to doctor 2459 02:43:42.500 --> 02:43:46.160 if you would turn over to page 119 yes 2460 02:43:50.420 --> 02:43:55.920 sir do you see a bibliography there yes sir all right 2461 02:43:56.380 --> 02:43:59.280 and does he not have a bibliography on asbestosis 2462 02:43:59.280 --> 02:44:03.160 I beg pardon? He has a bibliography on asbestosis doesn't he? 2463 02:44:03.240 --> 02:44:08.540 Yes sir. It begins on page 119 and runs all the way over to 2464 02:44:08.540 --> 02:44:12.580 page 124. 2465 02:44:12.680 --> 02:44:16.440 You see that? Yes sir. There's about 50 references in there isn't it? 2466 02:44:16.760 --> 02:44:21.960 35. Okay. 35? Well if you look at it 2467 02:44:21.960 --> 02:44:28.040 closely doctor you'll see there's 41A, 8A, 8B in the references. 2468 02:44:28.040 --> 02:44:31.460 references. There's a few with some subparts. 2469 02:44:33.240 --> 02:44:35.080 You know what you were saying on page 123 2470 02:44:35.900 --> 02:44:39.380 where you stopped at just the 35th. It's no moment 2471 02:44:39.920 --> 02:44:43.600 but that's what it is. Yes. Well, there are a lot of references there. That's a lot 2472 02:44:43.600 --> 02:44:44.600 of references. 2473 02:44:44.420 --> 02:44:47.900 Alright. Now, are you familiar with some case 2474 02:44:47.900 --> 02:44:51.320 reports in the early literature in the 1930s by Dr. 2475 02:44:51.380 --> 02:44:52.380 Ellman? 2476 02:44:52.520 --> 02:44:56.080 Yes, ma'am. And you recall that one of the cases 2477 02:44:56.080 --> 02:45:00.200 that he reported with an insulation worker and are you familiar with some case 2478 02:45:00.200 --> 02:45:01.420 reports by dr wood 2479 02:45:01.420 --> 02:45:06.220 and glowing yes sir and are you familiar with the fact that some of the cases they reported 2480 02:45:06.220 --> 02:45:10.400 were insulation workers there were some they were included yes sir and do you see 2481 02:45:10.400 --> 02:45:11.400 where dr 2482 02:45:11.960 --> 02:45:17.360 Dreessen cites those studies yes sir all right now 2483 02:45:19.410 --> 02:45:23.810 oh uh doctor also uh there's a reference there 2484 02:45:23.810 --> 02:45:27.790 there to, on page 120, to 2485 02:45:27.790 --> 02:45:31.250 the international conference 2486 02:45:31.250 --> 02:45:35.190 on silicosis held at Johannesburg in 1930. 2487 02:45:35.670 --> 02:45:37.150 That's reference number 19. 2488 02:45:37.330 --> 02:45:38.330 Do you see that? 2489 02:45:38.010 --> 02:45:39.010 Yes, sir. 2490 02:45:38.630 --> 02:45:39.630 OK. 2491 02:45:39.050 --> 02:45:40.610 And apparently there was a discussion there 2492 02:45:40.610 --> 02:45:41.850 of asbestosis, too. 2493 02:45:42.250 --> 02:45:43.990 Dr. LaPaula, that question, there's 2494 02:45:43.990 --> 02:45:45.170 nothing to indicate that at all. 2495 02:45:45.450 --> 02:45:47.270 Do you see that reference 19, doctor? 2496 02:45:48.350 --> 02:45:49.430 Lavasetto, Domenico? 2497 02:45:49.690 --> 02:45:50.690 Yes, it is the same. 2498 02:45:50.650 --> 02:45:53.090 Lavasetto pulmonary asbestosis, records 2499 02:45:53.090 --> 02:45:57.410 of the International Conference on Psoriasis held at Johannesburg, August 1930? 2500 02:45:58.110 --> 02:45:59.290 It does say it. 2501 02:45:59.410 --> 02:46:04.110 And does it say the author's observations on workers handling pure asbestos 2502 02:46:04.610 --> 02:46:07.590 and asbestos mixed with cotton or other vegetable dust? 2503 02:46:08.190 --> 02:46:09.190 Yes, sir. 2504 02:46:09.070 --> 02:46:12.690 A well-established case may develop in 79 years, 2505 02:46:12.790 --> 02:46:16.150 and the disease can cause death after 13 years of heavy exposure? 2506 02:46:16.370 --> 02:46:17.550 That's what it says on page 120. 2507 02:46:28.800 --> 02:46:32.820 Dr., I believe that Mr. Wilson might be able to help me out because I don't have an 2508 02:46:32.820 --> 02:46:34.120 extra copy, but... 2509 02:46:34.120 --> 02:46:37.900 No, but before we leave the Dreessen Report, there's one comment I would like to make. 2510 02:46:38.460 --> 02:46:43.580 And that is, I think the Dreessen Report, as you pointed out, is a very, very 2511 02:46:43.580 --> 02:46:44.780 responsible study. 2512 02:46:46.500 --> 02:46:51.900 He, unlike the Braun and Truan study, identified 2513 02:46:51.900 --> 02:46:54.140 all the shortcomings of this study. 2514 02:46:55.040 --> 02:46:59.320 And as a result of that, it would seem to me that the conclusions of the study 2515 02:46:59.320 --> 02:47:04.800 probably were taken at an appropriate level 2516 02:47:04.800 --> 02:47:08.740 of seriousness because it is a comprehensive study. 2517 02:47:10.760 --> 02:47:14.940 Now, Mr. Wilson, you have a copy of the Proceedings of the New York Academy of 2518 02:47:14.940 --> 02:47:15.940 Sciences with you. 2519 02:47:16.620 --> 02:47:22.660 If you could hand Dr. Curtin your copy and we'll mark that. 2520 02:47:23.580 --> 02:47:24.580 It's next. 2521 02:47:27.750 --> 02:47:28.990 Don't mark it. 2522 02:47:29.150 --> 02:47:33.170 But can we Xerox agree that the pages I'm going to talk about will be Xeroxed and 2523 02:47:33.170 --> 02:47:34.230 put in the stickers? 2524 02:47:34.310 --> 02:47:35.310 Does that suit you? 2525 02:47:35.070 --> 02:47:36.070 I have no objection. 2526 02:47:35.910 --> 02:47:36.910 All right. 2527 02:47:36.610 --> 02:47:37.630 Dr., I want to... 2528 02:47:37.630 --> 02:47:41.270 I have a continuing objection to marking all of these things as exhibits. 2529 02:47:41.370 --> 02:47:42.370 You understand that? 2530 02:47:42.210 --> 02:47:43.210 Yes, sir. 2531 02:47:43.070 --> 02:47:46.010 Dr., we'll put that right there and use it a little later. 2532 02:47:46.090 --> 02:47:47.090 Okay? 2533 02:47:46.270 --> 02:47:53.090 Okay. Now, if you would, turn to page 316. 2534 02:47:56.690 --> 02:47:58.570 That's going to be marked as this one. 2535 02:47:59.290 --> 02:48:00.630 38, I think, Mr. Beaver. 2536 02:48:02.310 --> 02:48:03.310 Yes, sir. 2537 02:48:05.390 --> 02:48:10.500 Have you found the article, doctor? 2538 02:48:11.200 --> 02:48:12.200 I have. 2539 02:48:12.100 --> 02:48:13.100 All right. And that's entitled, 2540 02:48:13.420 --> 02:48:19.180 Present Threshold Limit Value in the United States for Asbestos Dust, a Critique. 2541 02:48:19.340 --> 02:48:20.340 Do you see that? 2542 02:48:20.140 --> 02:48:21.140 Yes, sir. 2543 02:48:21.100 --> 02:48:23.540 And I think you're familiar with that article, aren't you? 2544 02:48:23.720 --> 02:48:24.720 We looked at it yesterday. 2545 02:48:25.400 --> 02:48:27.700 I think we looked at it yesterday or the day before. 2546 02:48:29.320 --> 02:48:30.880 I say you're familiar with that article. 2547 02:48:31.140 --> 02:48:32.140 Yes, sir. 2548 02:48:31.180 --> 02:48:32.180 All right. 2549 02:48:31.740 --> 02:48:34.600 And do you know Mr. Schall? 2550 02:48:35.320 --> 02:48:36.320 Personally, no. 2551 02:48:37.240 --> 02:48:41.020 Do you know that his paper was presented at the New York Academy of Sciences in 2552 02:48:41.020 --> 02:48:42.020 October 1964? 2553 02:48:42.520 --> 02:48:43.660 It's included in the proceedings. 2554 02:48:44.000 --> 02:48:45.000 Okay. 2555 02:48:44.300 --> 02:48:50.200 Okay. And from your familiarity with the article, do you agree with me that it is a 2556 02:48:50.200 --> 02:48:56.140 critique or a critical evaluation of the threshold limit value which 2557 02:48:56.140 --> 02:48:57.640 was based on Dr. Dreessen's work? 2558 02:48:57.920 --> 02:48:59.400 So stated in the title. 2559 02:48:59.560 --> 02:49:02.960 Okay. Would you look at page 318? 2560 02:49:03.340 --> 02:49:04.340 Yes, sir. 2561 02:49:08.550 --> 02:49:11.910 Excuse me, not 318. Page 319. 2562 02:49:12.310 --> 02:49:13.310 Yes, sir. 2563 02:49:17.160 --> 02:49:23.000 you see where dr excuse me Mr. Schall points out the limitations of the study 2564 02:49:23.000 --> 02:49:24.280 because of the lack 2565 02:49:24.280 --> 02:49:30.270 of long-term low-level exposure i recall it yes sir all 2566 02:49:30.270 --> 02:49:32.670 right and do you see down at the bottom 2567 02:49:32.670 --> 02:49:37.790 where he cites the Merewether report that mr wilson asked you about uh to the 2568 02:49:37.790 --> 02:49:38.790 effect that 2569 02:49:39.070 --> 02:49:43.050 Merewether and price state that with continued exposure to high concentrations 2570 02:49:43.050 --> 02:49:45.050 dust fibrosis may 2571 02:49:45.050 --> 02:49:49.490 be fully developed in from seven to nine years and that death may result in about 2572 02:49:49.490 --> 02:49:50.490 14 years 2573 02:49:50.270 --> 02:49:56.410 with less concentration fibrosis may not be fully developed for 15 to 25 years 2574 02:49:56.410 --> 02:50:02.130 do you agree with that statement uh in as as that was the evidence that existed in 2575 02:50:02.130 --> 02:50:03.130 the 1930s 2576 02:50:03.070 --> 02:50:08.610 Now, over on page 320, 2577 02:50:08.950 --> 02:50:13.800 do you see where Mr. 2578 02:50:14.320 --> 02:50:18.520 Shaw talks about the number of people who were exposed? 2579 02:50:22.540 --> 02:50:23.660 No further, yes, sir. 2580 02:50:23.780 --> 02:50:27.680 And that only 333 2581 02:50:27.680 --> 02:50:33.780 of the people examined had worked for less than five years? 2582 02:50:34.300 --> 02:50:35.300 Correct. 2583 02:50:35.880 --> 02:50:39.760 and that that was an extraordinary number of people who had worked for a short 2584 02:50:39.760 --> 02:50:40.760 period of time 2585 02:50:40.360 --> 02:50:46.340 well didn't they conclude didn't even dr 2586 02:50:46.340 --> 02:50:49.420 dreeson conclude that the average age of the workers 2587 02:50:49.420 --> 02:50:53.660 examined that these textile plants were lower than any other industrial factory 2588 02:50:53.660 --> 02:50:54.660 that the united 2589 02:50:54.140 --> 02:50:58.380 states government had studied when he called attention to that yes all right doctor 2590 02:51:03.340 --> 02:51:04.340 are you 2591 02:51:03.820 --> 02:51:09.420 aware of anything in the medical literature before Mr. Schall's critique criticizing 2592 02:51:09.420 --> 02:51:10.680 the threshold limit 2593 02:51:10.680 --> 02:51:15.360 value on the grounds that there were not enough people examined who have been 2594 02:51:15.360 --> 02:51:16.360 exposed for long 2595 02:51:16.240 --> 02:51:21.540 enough and that it did not evaluate long- term low-level exposure i'm not aware 2596 02:51:21.540 --> 02:51:22.900 do you know 2597 02:51:22.900 --> 02:51:28.560 whether or not the asbestos industry ever had a study conducted for it critiquing 2598 02:51:28.560 --> 02:51:29.560 the threshold 2599 02:51:28.920 --> 02:51:33.860 on it back i'm unaware that he you haven't seen anything in the literature to 2600 02:51:33.860 --> 02:51:34.960 reflect that i have 2601 02:51:34.960 --> 02:51:40.780 none okay i turn your attention sir to exhibit number 2602 02:51:43.020 --> 02:51:48.680 37 and that 2603 02:51:48.680 --> 02:51:50.460 is entitled the industrial 2604 02:51:50.460 --> 02:51:53.920 hygiene foundation of america are you familiar with the industrial hygiene 2605 02:51:53.920 --> 02:51:55.000 foundation of america 2606 02:51:55.000 --> 02:52:01.060 yes sir and it's entitled report a preliminary dust investigation for the asbestos 2607 02:52:01.860 --> 02:52:06.820 textile institute are you familiar with the asbestos textile institute i've been informed 2608 02:52:06.820 --> 02:52:12.820 yes i i know what it is and this report bears the date june 1947 is 2609 02:52:12.820 --> 02:52:14.720 it not it does and that's nine 2610 02:52:14.720 --> 02:52:20.160 years after the treason stuff yes sir and that's also 13 years after dr 2611 02:52:20.160 --> 02:52:22.200 lanza's study back in 1934 2612 02:52:23.160 --> 02:52:29.400 yes sir and that's some 17 years after dr Merewether's study in great britain 2613 02:52:31.060 --> 02:52:36.460 yes sir now do you know what the asbestos textile institute is no it was a trade association 2614 02:52:36.980 --> 02:52:42.560 does it still exist i'm told it is i've never it's a trade association of 2615 02:52:42.560 --> 02:52:44.020 asbestos companies 2616 02:52:44.020 --> 02:52:49.800 that make asbestos textile with it correct and john's bamba was a member yes sir and 2617 02:52:49.800 --> 02:52:55.680 ray dustin's manhattan was a member and material showing me yes union asbestos and 2618 02:52:55.680 --> 02:52:56.680 rubber company 2619 02:52:56.160 --> 02:53:02.120 was a member yes sir southern asbestos company was a member that i don't remember 2620 02:53:02.120 --> 02:53:03.120 that i don't 2621 02:53:02.940 --> 02:53:07.940 remember that i don't remember but i know at some previous time you showed me the 2622 02:53:07.940 --> 02:53:08.940 membership list 2623 02:53:09.080 --> 02:53:13.180 and the names you mentioned up until that last one i remember 2624 02:53:14.420 --> 02:53:20.280 did you know mr heenian h-e-n-e-o-n an engineer for the industrial hygiene 2625 02:53:20.280 --> 02:53:22.480 foundation no sir are 2626 02:53:22.480 --> 02:53:27.560 you familiar with any articles that he's published on dust diseases i'm not 2627 02:53:27.560 --> 02:53:29.120 do you know whether or 2628 02:53:29.120 --> 02:53:31.820 not he was a member of the american conference of governmental industrial 2629 02:53:31.820 --> 02:53:33.500 hygienists so very well 2630 02:53:33.500 --> 02:53:38.700 have been on the basis of his association was the industrial hygiene foundation uh 2631 02:53:38.700 --> 02:53:39.980 a respected and 2632 02:53:39.980 --> 02:53:45.940 authoritative research laboratory i believe it was okay now if you would doctor 2633 02:53:45.940 --> 02:53:48.380 uh turn with me 2634 02:53:49.780 --> 02:53:55.700 to the page one object of investigation yes sir 2635 02:53:55.700 --> 02:53:58.640 you see where it says this project was a 2636 02:53:58.640 --> 02:54:04.040 preliminary investigation of the asbestosis problem in textile plants of members of the 2637 02:54:04.040 --> 02:54:09.080 asbestos textile institute with the immediate object of defining the specific 2638 02:54:09.080 --> 02:54:10.080 nature and the 2639 02:54:10.080 --> 02:54:15.540 magnitude of the problem in all its phases do you see that yes sir okay and you see 2640 02:54:15.540 --> 02:54:16.540 the summary on 2641 02:54:16.220 --> 02:54:21.900 that same page? The facts upon which this report is based were obtained on visits 2642 02:54:21.900 --> 02:54:26.520 during the past three months to all plants of Institute members except one 2643 02:54:26.520 --> 02:54:30.060 who wished the visit postponed to a later date. 2644 02:54:30.440 --> 02:54:32.160 Complete cooperation was 2645 02:54:32.160 --> 02:54:35.360 extended at all plants. You see that? Yes sir. 2646 02:54:35.500 --> 02:54:40.160 And over on page two do 2647 02:54:41.700 --> 02:54:42.700 you see a 2648 02:54:42.140 --> 02:54:45.300 discussion of the type of study that was undertaken. 2649 02:54:45.480 --> 02:54:47.800 Engineering, medical 2650 02:54:48.500 --> 02:54:53.120 supervision of workers, and physical testing, dust counts, etc. 2651 02:54:53.400 --> 02:54:54.400 Do you see that? 2652 02:54:54.100 --> 02:54:59.920 Yes, sir. All right, you see on page 2, this is in 1947, the sentence, 2653 02:55:00.080 --> 02:55:01.340 only five plants 2654 02:55:01.340 --> 02:55:04.940 have had any medical x-ray surveys of employees. Do you see that? 2655 02:55:05.220 --> 02:55:06.220 Yes, sir. Do 2656 02:55:06.080 --> 02:55:11.100 you remember that Dr. Lanza back in 1945 recommended x-ray surveillance of 2657 02:55:11.100 --> 02:55:13.500 asbestos workers i do where 2658 02:55:17.020 --> 02:55:21.480 mr heenan says in the others therefore there is a serious lack of 2659 02:55:21.480 --> 02:55:26.640 information as to the incidence of asbestosis the lack is more serious in a sense 2660 02:55:26.640 --> 02:55:28.080 because in most of 2661 02:55:28.080 --> 02:55:33.580 these plants no compensable cases of asbestosis have occurred to draw attention of 2662 02:55:33.580 --> 02:55:34.580 top management 2663 02:55:34.120 --> 02:55:40.020 to the problem you see that yes sir while the medical survey conducted by one plant recently 2664 02:55:40.020 --> 02:55:43.780 shows only about three percent of the employees with asbestosis. 2665 02:55:43.960 --> 02:55:44.960 Two other 2666 02:55:44.940 --> 02:55:49.340 plants appear to have about twenty percent of the employees affected. 2667 02:55:49.680 --> 02:55:50.680 Do you 2668 02:55:49.820 --> 02:55:54.580 see that? I do. Do you consider a 1947 doctor that three percent of the 2669 02:55:54.580 --> 02:55:57.720 workforce having asbestosis was a serious health problem? 2670 02:56:10.020 --> 02:56:13.780 the fact that it was never published, of which the problem was to ask Dr. 2671 02:56:13.840 --> 02:56:15.080 Cochran these kinds of questions, 2672 02:56:15.080 --> 02:56:18.180 at least without having this document previously admitted in the evidence, 2673 02:56:18.280 --> 02:56:20.740 which was not admitted in any jurisdiction at the time of the warning. 2674 02:56:21.140 --> 02:56:22.140 Go ahead, Doctor. 2675 02:56:22.280 --> 02:56:23.280 I have a question. 2676 02:56:23.120 --> 02:56:24.120 Yes, sir. 2677 02:56:23.500 --> 02:56:29.860 Do you consider a 3% incidence of asbestosis to be a serious health hazard in 1947? 2678 02:56:30.560 --> 02:56:31.960 It's a health hazard, yes, sir. 2679 02:56:31.980 --> 02:56:34.620 And 20% is even a greater health hazard, isn't it? 2680 02:56:34.700 --> 02:56:35.700 Yes, sir. 2681 02:56:35.600 --> 02:56:36.600 Okay. 2682 02:56:36.020 --> 02:56:40.200 Okay. Now, if you would, please, sir, did 2683 02:56:44.580 --> 02:56:50.360 you tell me that in 1948 that one of the reasons you chose 2684 02:56:50.360 --> 02:56:55.820 to go into air pollution was that you considered that the asbestos problem was well 2685 02:56:55.820 --> 02:56:56.820 under control? 2686 02:56:56.680 --> 02:57:00.700 It was being studied, as you pointed out yourself, by the Saranac people and others 2687 02:57:00.700 --> 02:57:01.700 as well. 2688 02:57:01.320 --> 02:57:02.840 So you went into air pollution. 2689 02:57:03.460 --> 02:57:06.700 And the availability of Los Angeles is a nice laboratory. 2690 02:57:07.200 --> 02:57:09.300 Yes, sir. Still got problems there, though. 2691 02:57:10.580 --> 02:57:15.020 Now, if you would, sir, take a 2692 02:57:21.360 --> 02:57:22.800 look at K-39. 2693 02:57:24.640 --> 02:57:26.040 Do you 2694 02:57:42.160 --> 02:57:45.480 recognize Mr. H.M. Jackson, that name? 2695 02:57:46.720 --> 02:57:48.820 Safety Engineer, Johns Manor Corporation? 2696 02:57:50.600 --> 02:57:54.560 The address here is Woodard and the signatory is Doerr. 2697 02:57:55.340 --> 02:57:59.120 Do you recognize the name Mr. 2698 02:57:59.380 --> 02:58:00.380 Woodard? 2699 02:58:01.120 --> 02:58:02.120 No. 2700 02:58:02.860 --> 02:58:05.820 Did you know, did you didn't know that he later became president of John's Manor? 2701 02:58:08.260 --> 02:58:10.100 Well, assume he was president of John's Manor. 2702 02:58:10.140 --> 02:58:11.140 All right. 2703 02:58:10.540 --> 02:58:12.140 No point, sir. 2704 02:58:13.020 --> 02:58:15.660 Well, I don't know the answer to that, Mr. Wilson, for God's sake. 2705 02:58:16.240 --> 02:58:20.540 I think he was president in the 1950s, but I could stand to be correct. 2706 02:58:21.260 --> 02:58:23.700 Now, do you recognize the name Arthur J. Bulwark? 2707 02:58:23.900 --> 02:58:24.900 I do. 2708 02:58:24.680 --> 02:58:25.940 And who was Dr. Bulwark? 2709 02:58:26.260 --> 02:58:30.340 As he says, I'm the signature director of the Trudeau Foundation and the Sarat Laboratory. 2710 02:58:30.960 --> 02:58:32.480 Have you seen this letter, Father, today? 2711 02:58:32.820 --> 02:58:33.820 Never. 2712 02:58:33.180 --> 02:58:36.360 It's not in the any files of John's Mammal that you've ever seen. 2713 02:58:36.440 --> 02:58:38.800 No, sir. So would you read that? 2714 02:58:39.900 --> 02:58:42.320 She can take you down. I read the whole letter. Do you read it? 2715 02:58:53.820 --> 02:58:57.940 This letter is dated April 17 1951 from dr. 2716 02:58:58.080 --> 02:59:00.700 Boal to mr. J period page 2717 02:59:00.700 --> 02:59:05.480 Woodard, Johns Manor Corporation, 22 East 40th Street, New York, New York. 2718 02:59:21.360 --> 02:59:26.460 Now Doctor, have you had a chance to read the letter of April 17, 1951 from Dr. 2719 02:59:26.740 --> 02:59:27.920 Vorwahl to Mr. Woodard? 2720 02:59:28.220 --> 02:59:29.220 I have. 2721 02:59:29.020 --> 02:59:34.700 Do you see in there that Dr. Vorwahl talks about a 2722 02:59:34.700 --> 02:59:36.120 visit by Dr. Keller? 2723 02:59:36.300 --> 02:59:40.820 Do you know who Dr. Keller was? Samuel L. 2724 02:59:40.820 --> 02:59:41.820 Keller? 2725 02:59:42.840 --> 02:59:44.720 No, I really don't. 2726 02:59:44.720 --> 02:59:48.540 Okay. He was a plant physician at the Johns Manor Waukegan, Illinois plant. 2727 02:59:48.720 --> 02:59:52.620 Does that refresh your recollection? Yes, sir. Okay. Now, do you see where 2728 02:59:52.620 --> 02:59:56.600 Dr. Vorwald talks about the fact that Dr. Keller came down to the Sananac 2729 02:59:56.600 --> 02:59:59.700 Laboratory and brought a bunch of x-rays with him? You see that? Yes, sir. 2730 02:59:59.800 --> 03:00:00.800 And you see 2731 03:00:00.580 --> 03:00:04.260 that Dr. Vorwald says, while he was here, Dr. 2732 03:00:04.360 --> 03:00:05.360 Keller, 2733 03:00:05.140 --> 03:00:08.680 we spent a great deal of time reading and reviewing a large series of 2734 03:00:08.680 --> 03:00:12.020 chest retinograms, or x-rays, of approximately 2735 03:00:12.020 --> 03:00:16.580 64 employees in the plant. The cases which he presented may have been a 2736 03:00:16.580 --> 03:00:21.380 highly selected group. Nevertheless, I was astounded with the number of cases 2737 03:00:21.380 --> 03:00:25.940 presenting x-ray evidence of asbestosis. It is obvious that the situation in 2738 03:00:25.940 --> 03:00:29.360 Waukegan is serious enough to warrant your most considered attention. 2739 03:00:29.740 --> 03:00:30.740 Should the 2740 03:00:30.440 --> 03:00:34.440 cases which we so recently reviewed be an index of the industrial hygiene 2741 03:00:34.440 --> 03:00:38.440 conditions existing in that plant, it seems highly advisable for you to 2742 03:00:38.440 --> 03:00:43.060 improve the plant conditions before irresponsible agents stimulate action which 2743 03:00:43.060 --> 03:00:44.060 might reflect 2744 03:00:43.640 --> 03:00:48.800 unfavorably on the industry do you see that yes sir all right doctor do you know uh 2745 03:00:48.800 --> 03:00:49.800 whether or 2746 03:00:49.320 --> 03:00:54.200 not any dust counts were taken at rockegan in 1951 okay 2747 03:00:54.200 --> 03:00:57.440 now doctor uh getting back to this 2748 03:00:57.440 --> 03:01:03.380 Hemeon report getting back to this Hemeon 2749 03:01:03.380 --> 03:01:05.740 report um on 2750 03:01:11.570 --> 03:01:16.080 page two under 2751 03:01:17.560 --> 03:01:19.020 dust camp do you see that 2752 03:01:19.020 --> 03:01:23.680 Yes sir. He starts talking about the threshold limit value. 2753 03:01:24.280 --> 03:01:26.440 He says the maximum permissible 2754 03:01:26.440 --> 03:01:31.500 dustiness for asbestos is commonly taken to be five million particles per cubic foot. 2755 03:01:31.740 --> 03:01:35.180 This represents good attainment in the dust control program. 2756 03:01:35.500 --> 03:01:37.100 It is emphasized, however, 2757 03:01:37.340 --> 03:01:42.980 that dust elimination to this extent does not positively ensure that no asbestosis 2758 03:01:42.980 --> 03:01:43.980 will develop 2759 03:01:43.660 --> 03:01:48.600 in some workers after a long working life, greater than 20 to 25 years. 2760 03:01:48.920 --> 03:01:51.840 Scientific evidence is obscure on this point. 2761 03:01:52.040 --> 03:01:57.920 It is recommended, therefore, that studies be initiated aimed to develop another yardstick 2762 03:01:57.920 --> 03:02:02.420 because it is suggested that when control below 5 million is attained, 2763 03:02:02.820 --> 03:02:06.700 present dust count methods may not properly measure the remaining hazard. 2764 03:02:06.980 --> 03:02:07.980 Do you see that? 2765 03:02:07.960 --> 03:02:08.960 Yes, sir. 2766 03:02:14.060 --> 03:02:19.940 yes sir you may doctor um is this not some of the same 2767 03:02:19.940 --> 03:02:21.880 criticism that was leveled at the 2768 03:02:21.880 --> 03:02:27.100 recent study by Mr. Schall in the 1964 article that we discussed there are 2769 03:02:27.100 --> 03:02:28.280 similarities all right 2770 03:02:28.280 --> 03:02:33.780 now doctor if you would turn over to uh page four 2771 03:02:33.780 --> 03:02:39.370 yes sir down under discussion of concentrations 2772 03:02:39.370 --> 03:02:44.140 concentrations. The figures for carding room dustiness. 2773 03:02:44.180 --> 03:02:46.260 What's a carding room? That's a room where 2774 03:02:47.000 --> 03:02:50.300 fibers are actually literally put on cards for 2775 03:02:51.020 --> 03:02:53.280 ultimately, for ultimate weaving into 2776 03:02:53.860 --> 03:02:58.800 textile products. Now a lot of people in the south are familiar with textile plants. 2777 03:02:59.060 --> 03:03:02.360 Do textile plants have carding rooms too? They do. Okay. 2778 03:03:02.880 --> 03:03:07.900 The figures for carding room dustiness indicate that with reasonably good enclosure 2779 03:03:07.900 --> 03:03:09.340 and exhaust to the machines 2780 03:03:10.160 --> 03:03:13.920 Concentrations well below three million. I guess that means particles per cubic 2781 03:03:13.920 --> 03:03:17.140 foot are obtainable four of the plants visited 2782 03:03:17.140 --> 03:03:21.780 Exceed the five million particles per cubic foot limit materially. 2783 03:03:21.820 --> 03:03:22.920 Do you see that? Yes, sir 2784 03:03:22.920 --> 03:03:24.720 Now if five million 2785 03:03:25.340 --> 03:03:29.440 Particle per cubic foot that was the threshold on his day at that time in 1947. 2786 03:03:29.920 --> 03:03:31.880 Is that professor? Do you understand? 2787 03:03:32.040 --> 03:03:36.180 Mr. Hemeon is pointing out that for the plants in the carding room the levels 2788 03:03:36.180 --> 03:03:38.300 exceeded materially the threshold on his day 2789 03:03:38.300 --> 03:03:43.570 He so states. Now doctor if you will look at page five. 2790 03:03:46.980 --> 03:03:48.540 There's a table there that 2791 03:03:49.260 --> 03:03:54.180 says dust survey for Asbestos Textile Institute and they list the various 2792 03:03:54.180 --> 03:03:59.660 rooms where work is being done. You see preparation, carding, mule spinning, ring 2793 03:03:59.660 --> 03:04:03.200 spinning, twisting, weaving, spooling and winding. Do you see that? 2794 03:04:03.440 --> 03:04:04.440 I do. Are you 2795 03:04:04.400 --> 03:04:08.580 familiar with whether or not those were operations undertaken in a textile plant? 2796 03:04:08.580 --> 03:04:13.900 They are. And then he's got one, two, three, four, five, six, 2797 03:04:14.140 --> 03:04:16.280 seven, eight, nine, ten plants 2798 03:04:16.280 --> 03:04:20.280 they looked at. Is that correct? A through J. Ten up. 2799 03:04:20.860 --> 03:04:23.400 Do you know of any study ever taken, 2800 03:04:23.500 --> 03:04:27.140 undertaken in this country, including the Dreessen study, where somebody looked at 2801 03:04:27.140 --> 03:04:28.140 ten plants at one 2802 03:04:28.140 --> 03:04:31.520 time? I'm unaware of any. That's a big study in the doctor. 2803 03:04:32.340 --> 03:04:34.920 Covers ten plants. Yes, and Dr. Dreessen 2804 03:04:34.920 --> 03:04:40.200 only covered four didn't it yeah okay now do you see the values listed no 2805 03:04:40.200 --> 03:04:41.880 i was just going to say 2806 03:04:41.880 --> 03:04:46.120 the number of plants is just one factor the number of people studied as well as an 2807 03:04:46.120 --> 03:04:47.120 important we're 2808 03:04:46.600 --> 03:04:52.260 going to get to that in a minute fine now do you see the various dust counts 2809 03:04:52.260 --> 03:04:53.320 that were taken at 2810 03:04:53.320 --> 03:04:57.740 those 10 plants yes sir some of them pretty high aren't they 10 to 25 2811 03:04:57.740 --> 03:05:02.680 13 to 18 7 to 11 30 to 50 2812 03:05:02.680 --> 03:05:08.580 11 to 15 you see that yes sir do you consider in 1947 that those were 2813 03:05:08.580 --> 03:05:13.940 acceptable levels of dustiness they were above the threshold in the bedding all 2814 03:05:13.940 --> 03:05:19.840 right now if you would sir turn over to page 14 now 2815 03:05:25.890 --> 03:05:27.430 he's talking about the fact 2816 03:05:27.430 --> 03:05:33.570 that they examined the practices the medical practices that these plants and 2817 03:05:33.570 --> 03:05:38.070 they're right yes sir he says half of the plants have no positive information 2818 03:05:38.070 --> 03:05:40.650 is to the incidence of asbestosis among the workers. 2819 03:05:40.990 --> 03:05:44.090 The situation in these respects is indicated in Table 2. 2820 03:05:44.470 --> 03:05:46.430 And then he lists all the ten plants 2821 03:05:46.430 --> 03:05:49.110 and whether or not they have x-rays taken, doesn't he? 2822 03:05:49.350 --> 03:05:50.350 Yes, sir. 2823 03:05:49.970 --> 03:05:50.970 Okay. 2824 03:05:50.710 --> 03:05:56.350 And you see that one, two, three, four, five of the plants 2825 03:05:56.350 --> 03:05:58.090 don't even do x-rays today. 2826 03:05:59.900 --> 03:06:00.900 See that? 2827 03:06:00.880 --> 03:06:04.400 I have to count them, but one, two, three, four, five, yes, sir. 2828 03:06:04.480 --> 03:06:07.780 And in fact, only one of the plants had periodic x-rays made. 2829 03:06:07.920 --> 03:06:08.920 One out of ten. 2830 03:06:08.800 --> 03:06:09.800 Yes, sir. 2831 03:06:09.780 --> 03:06:10.780 Okay. 2832 03:06:10.200 --> 03:06:14.720 And Dr. Lambert, back in 1935, said that's what you're supposed to do is have x-rays, 2833 03:06:14.800 --> 03:06:16.280 periodic x-rays, didn't you? 2834 03:06:16.300 --> 03:06:17.300 He recommended it. 2835 03:06:17.340 --> 03:06:18.720 Doctor, do you know whose plant that was? 2836 03:06:19.000 --> 03:06:20.000 Johns-Manville. 2837 03:06:19.940 --> 03:06:20.940 Okay. 2838 03:06:20.560 --> 03:06:22.300 Thank you, Mr. Wilson. 2839 03:06:23.020 --> 03:06:24.900 The other nine didn't have any, though, did they? 2840 03:06:26.380 --> 03:06:27.480 Johns-Manville did. 2841 03:06:27.680 --> 03:06:28.680 Okay. 2842 03:06:28.380 --> 03:06:29.720 Well, good for Johns-Manville. 2843 03:06:30.880 --> 03:06:35.100 Now, Doctor, on page 15, do you see the incidence of asbestos? 2844 03:06:35.320 --> 03:06:37.840 The estimated incidence of asbestos. 2845 03:06:37.840 --> 03:06:43.700 okay now which one of those plants was the jm plant plant h yes okay let's keep 2846 03:06:43.700 --> 03:06:44.700 that in mind 2847 03:06:44.220 --> 03:06:50.140 when we get over to asbestos now council if you want to comment uh i don't mind 2848 03:06:50.140 --> 03:06:51.140 you asking i will 2849 03:06:50.900 --> 03:06:56.700 draw the comment as well estimated incidence of asbestos did 2850 03:06:56.700 --> 03:07:00.020 um did mr Hemeon and the other people 2851 03:07:00.020 --> 03:07:04.420 from the industrial hygiene foundation attempt to estimate the incidence of 2852 03:07:04.420 --> 03:07:05.440 asbestosis in the 2853 03:07:05.440 --> 03:07:10.780 the employees apparently on page 15 he has a section devoted to that all right now 2854 03:07:10.780 --> 03:07:11.780 you see 2855 03:07:11.080 --> 03:07:16.860 what plan a had 400 people employed yes sir and do you see that plan a has recorded 2856 03:07:16.860 --> 03:07:17.900 cases diagnosed 2857 03:07:17.900 --> 03:07:23.600 as asbestosis to the extent of about 20 percent and in the past nine years has 2858 03:07:23.600 --> 03:07:24.600 compensated on 2859 03:07:24.400 --> 03:07:30.240 the average two cases a year you see that i read that yes in 1947 doctors 17 years 2860 03:07:30.240 --> 03:07:31.240 after dr 2861 03:07:30.760 --> 03:07:35.440 Dr. Merewether, 13 years after Dr. Lanza, and 9 years after Dr. 2862 03:07:35.580 --> 03:07:36.580 Dreessen. 2863 03:07:35.980 --> 03:07:38.760 Do you consider that's an acceptable health situation at that plant? 2864 03:07:38.960 --> 03:07:40.100 That's the bottom of the question. 2865 03:07:40.560 --> 03:07:41.560 Do you, sir? 2866 03:07:41.880 --> 03:07:44.560 No, I think you should comply with the threshold in the value. 2867 03:07:44.860 --> 03:07:49.780 And you see, you read on the other table the name of the plant, JM, didn't you? 2868 03:07:50.040 --> 03:07:51.040 Yes, sir. 2869 03:07:50.540 --> 03:07:52.560 Do you see here the name of the plant there? 2870 03:07:52.640 --> 03:07:53.640 Do you read Mannheim? 2871 03:07:55.990 --> 03:07:56.990 What? 2872 03:07:56.590 --> 03:07:57.730 Next to plant A. 2873 03:07:57.850 --> 03:07:58.910 Do you see writing? 2874 03:07:59.430 --> 03:08:00.430 It's scribbly. 2875 03:08:00.290 --> 03:08:01.290 I can't read it. 2876 03:08:01.070 --> 03:08:02.070 You can't read it. 2877 03:08:01.870 --> 03:08:02.870 Okay. 2878 03:08:02.590 --> 03:08:08.590 All right. Now, do you see that the other plants are discussed, and 2879 03:08:08.590 --> 03:08:11.890 one of plant C has 3 to 4 percent asbestosis, 2880 03:08:13.190 --> 03:08:18.830 then plant D has an employment of 150, and he found four cases of asbestosis. 2881 03:08:19.350 --> 03:08:23.290 Plant H, which I think you identified as being John's mambo, had a textile 2882 03:08:23.290 --> 03:08:24.310 employment of 300 2883 03:08:24.310 --> 03:08:29.730 and finds five or six cases annually that the physician believes show early changes 2884 03:08:29.730 --> 03:08:30.790 due to asbestos. 2885 03:08:30.790 --> 03:08:36.530 you see that yes sir you consider five or six cases of asbestosis at a plant of 300 annually 2886 03:08:37.350 --> 03:08:42.070 13 years after dr lancet would be an acceptable level of asbestosis in that john's 2887 03:08:42.070 --> 03:08:43.070 mammal plant 2888 03:08:42.630 --> 03:08:46.790 get to the form of the question that's not what the report says it says it shows 2889 03:08:46.790 --> 03:08:47.790 early changes 2890 03:08:48.570 --> 03:08:54.370 i would like i would like to look at the film myself i see i have the films looked 2891 03:08:54.370 --> 03:08:55.370 at since 2892 03:08:54.770 --> 03:08:58.390 i'm not a radiologist that's what you 2893 03:09:00.720 --> 03:09:04.580 think that uh that these five or six people who had early 2894 03:09:04.580 --> 03:09:08.820 changes due to asbestos should have been advised that they had early changes due to asbestos 2895 03:09:08.820 --> 03:09:12.620 they could or could not have been do you think it would be proper to continue to 2896 03:09:12.620 --> 03:09:13.840 expose these five 2897 03:09:13.840 --> 03:09:18.360 or six people a year who had early changes due to asbestos to continue levels of 2898 03:09:18.360 --> 03:09:20.220 asbestos if they're 2899 03:09:20.220 --> 03:09:23.640 below the threshold limit value i think you'd have to all right you'd have to judge 2900 03:09:23.640 --> 03:09:24.640 it on an 2901 03:09:24.060 --> 03:09:29.680 individual case i see and plant j has counted potential cases of 2902 03:09:29.680 --> 03:09:31.340 asbestosis amounting in number 2903 03:09:31.340 --> 03:09:35.860 to about 20 percent comparable with plan a did you see that yes sir is that an 2904 03:09:35.860 --> 03:09:36.860 acceptable level 2905 03:09:36.580 --> 03:09:42.420 of asbestosis in 1947. and the text will out in this in terms of this study yes no 2906 03:09:42.420 --> 03:09:43.420 i think 2907 03:09:42.860 --> 03:09:48.860 compliance with the threshold limit value now and then he says other 2908 03:09:48.860 --> 03:09:50.380 plants have conducted 2909 03:09:50.380 --> 03:09:54.100 no systematic x-ray survey so they couldn't determine the incidence of 2910 03:09:54.100 --> 03:10:00.100 asbestosis do you see that says that now on page 16 doctor 2911 03:10:00.100 --> 03:10:05.450 do you see the next 2912 03:10:05.450 --> 03:10:11.390 the last sentence these observations suggest that there may well 2913 03:10:11.390 --> 03:10:12.390 be a marked 2914 03:10:12.190 --> 03:10:17.010 divergence in medical procedures interpretations and attitudes respecting 2915 03:10:17.010 --> 03:10:21.910 the diagnosis of asbestos there's a very urgent need for a concerted cooperative 2916 03:10:21.910 --> 03:10:26.890 medical effort to develop improved diagnostic procedures and uniformity of 2917 03:10:26.890 --> 03:10:31.290 interpretation. Do you see that? Yes, sir. Now, do you agree with Mr. 2918 03:10:31.370 --> 03:10:32.410 Hemeon based on 2919 03:10:32.410 --> 03:10:36.930 the dustiness of the plants and the level of asbestosis in 1947 that that 2920 03:10:36.930 --> 03:10:40.650 should have been done? What? The last sentence. 2921 03:10:40.890 --> 03:10:42.110 There's been urgent need for 2922 03:10:42.110 --> 03:10:46.170 concerted cooperative medical efforts to develop improved diagnostic procedures 2923 03:10:46.170 --> 03:10:50.750 and uniformity of interpretation. Yes, there should have been some effort to 2924 03:10:50.750 --> 03:10:56.690 standardize the diagnosis of the disease okay now over on page 17 do 2925 03:10:56.690 --> 03:10:58.770 you agree that one of the most 2926 03:10:58.770 --> 03:11:04.070 important elements of a program of protecting health of workers in an asbestos environment 2927 03:11:04.070 --> 03:11:08.830 is the periodic medical examination it's certainly an important point and then dr 2928 03:11:08.830 --> 03:11:14.370 ramsay emphasized that in 1935 that was one of his conclusions okay do you see the 2929 03:11:14.370 --> 03:11:15.370 next sentence 2930 03:11:14.970 --> 03:11:18.450 then you agree with Mr. Hemeon on page 17 when he says that. 2931 03:11:19.470 --> 03:11:21.050 Periodic x-rays are important. 2932 03:11:25.600 --> 03:11:28.960 Periodic medical is the first sentence, sir. One of the most important elements of 2933 03:11:28.960 --> 03:11:29.960 a program 2934 03:11:29.420 --> 03:11:33.660 of protecting health of workers in dusty occupations is a periodic medical. 2935 03:11:33.660 --> 03:11:34.660 Yeah, 2936 03:11:33.800 --> 03:11:37.100 you said periodical x-ray examination. I'm sorry, I did misquote it. 2937 03:11:37.120 --> 03:11:38.120 You agree with that? Yes, sir. 2938 03:11:39.160 --> 03:11:42.260 And an x-ray would be part of that examination? Yes, sir. 2939 03:11:42.560 --> 03:11:44.500 The lack of scientific information 2940 03:11:44.500 --> 03:11:48.880 regarding all aspects of asbestosis is serious do you see where he says that 2941 03:11:48.880 --> 03:11:54.060 yes do you agree with him in 1947 that that was a problem yes sir this cannot 2942 03:11:54.060 --> 03:11:58.820 be over-emphasized Mr. Henium said you see that you agree with him I don't know 2943 03:11:58.820 --> 03:12:00.100 what he meant by over-emphasized 2944 03:12:00.100 --> 03:12:03.980 well it's very important it's important yes the obvious procedure to help 2945 03:12:03.980 --> 03:12:09.020 overcome this deficiency is to employ every tool now available that will throw 2946 03:12:09.020 --> 03:12:12.780 more light on the facts do you see that you agree with him that that should have 2947 03:12:12.780 --> 03:12:17.200 been done should use what was available to you all right the importance of the 2948 03:12:17.200 --> 03:12:18.720 periodic medical x-ray 2949 03:12:18.720 --> 03:12:23.360 examination can perhaps best be emphasized by stating that dust count 2950 03:12:23.360 --> 03:12:24.840 investigations cannot 2951 03:12:25.500 --> 03:12:29.660 in the present state of knowledge give us assurance as to the extent of our success 2952 03:12:29.660 --> 03:12:33.440 in eliminating the hazard do you see that yes sir do you understand what he's saying 2953 03:12:33.440 --> 03:12:36.040 i'm trying to i want to read it to you go ahead i'll be quiet 2954 03:12:42.020 --> 03:12:46.800 but i think you have to complement medical examinations with dust counts 2955 03:12:47.320 --> 03:12:51.580 otherwise you just don't know whether or not the dust levels are doing any good 2956 03:12:51.580 --> 03:12:52.580 unless you examine 2957 03:12:52.300 --> 03:12:55.040 the workers to see if they're getting sick you know right that's what i conclude 2958 03:12:55.040 --> 03:12:56.040 that he means 2959 03:12:55.720 --> 03:13:00.800 that's what dr Merewether said way back in 1930 what yes and yes and 2960 03:13:00.800 --> 03:13:03.680 you agree with it 2961 03:13:03.680 --> 03:13:05.540 I think you have to do both. 2962 03:13:05.560 --> 03:13:06.560 All right. 2963 03:13:06.610 --> 03:13:10.340 Now, look at the next to last paragraph, Doc. 2964 03:13:10.760 --> 03:13:15.820 More important for the long term, the accumulation of factual information regarding 2965 03:13:15.820 --> 03:13:17.900 the health status of exposed workers 2966 03:13:17.900 --> 03:13:23.160 statistically interpreted in relation to dustiness studies and to mechanical 2967 03:13:23.160 --> 03:13:24.980 developments in dust control equipment 2968 03:13:24.980 --> 03:13:30.940 will eventually indicate that the battle of asbestosis control is being won. 2969 03:13:31.380 --> 03:13:35.560 This aspect of the problem is elaborated in the following section. 2970 03:13:35.680 --> 03:13:36.680 Do you agree with that? 2971 03:13:36.900 --> 03:13:40.580 That these data would be important in arriving at the conclusion that he says yes. 2972 03:13:40.780 --> 03:13:44.220 And one of the first things you did when you came to Johns-Manville was to start 2973 03:13:44.220 --> 03:13:45.960 developing a database, didn't you? 2974 03:13:47.220 --> 03:13:48.220 Yes, sir. 2975 03:13:48.040 --> 03:13:49.860 You hired a statistician, didn't you? 2976 03:13:50.020 --> 03:13:51.020 I did. 2977 03:13:50.780 --> 03:13:53.280 And there wasn't one there before you got there, was there? 2978 03:13:53.500 --> 03:13:54.500 There wasn't. 2979 03:13:54.380 --> 03:13:55.380 All right. 2980 03:13:56.020 --> 03:14:01.220 now doctor over on uh on page um 19 2981 03:14:01.220 --> 03:14:04.240 are you going to be on this long because i want to you want to 2982 03:14:04.240 --> 03:14:08.920 take a break i got about five moments can you have we take a break what do you want 2983 03:14:08.920 --> 03:14:09.920 your question 2984 03:14:09.400 --> 03:14:13.520 well let's take a break yes sir this is a combination 2985 03:14:22.560 --> 03:14:25.620 Now, Dr. 2986 03:14:26.860 --> 03:14:32.180 Kotin, let's continue to look at this 1947 death survey for the Asbestos Textile 2987 03:14:32.180 --> 03:14:33.180 Institute. 2988 03:14:32.840 --> 03:14:33.840 Yes, sir. 2989 03:14:33.360 --> 03:14:37.360 If you would, turn over to page 19, and 2990 03:14:39.340 --> 03:14:44.040 it says statistical studies of medical records. 2991 03:14:44.040 --> 03:14:45.040 Yes, sir. 2992 03:14:45.100 --> 03:14:50.440 And Mr. Hemeon says there are two very important questions concerning the physiological 2993 03:14:50.440 --> 03:14:55.220 nature of asbestos that have not yet been answered by any published investigation. 2994 03:14:55.580 --> 03:14:57.280 Now what does physiological mean? 2995 03:14:57.920 --> 03:14:59.320 Having to do with the body. 2996 03:14:59.420 --> 03:15:00.420 With the body. 2997 03:15:00.120 --> 03:15:01.120 Okay. 2998 03:15:00.740 --> 03:15:03.000 In other words, the effect of asbestos on the body. 2999 03:15:03.080 --> 03:15:04.080 That's what he's saying. 3000 03:15:04.140 --> 03:15:05.140 That's correct. 3001 03:15:04.780 --> 03:15:09.620 Two questions about the effect of asbestos on the body that haven't been answered. 3002 03:15:10.520 --> 03:15:16.420 all right number one what is the expectation of asbestosis in workers 3003 03:15:16.420 --> 03:15:18.780 exposed more than 15 to 20 3004 03:15:18.780 --> 03:15:24.760 years to low concentrations of asbestos dust among the 500 odd workers who 3005 03:15:24.760 --> 03:15:25.840 composed the subjects 3006 03:15:25.840 --> 03:15:31.560 in the u.s public health service study there were abnormally few who had been 3007 03:15:31.560 --> 03:15:32.620 exposed for more than 3008 03:15:32.620 --> 03:15:38.560 15 years and practically none over 20 years these facts seriously affected 3009 03:15:38.560 --> 03:15:39.760 the conclusions that 3010 03:15:39.760 --> 03:15:44.600 could be drawn do you see that yes sir now when he says the u.s public health 3011 03:15:44.600 --> 03:15:45.600 service studies he 3012 03:15:45.500 --> 03:15:51.240 talked about dr Dreessen's study i assume he means that and is he making the same 3013 03:15:51.240 --> 03:15:52.240 criticism back in 3014 03:15:52.240 --> 03:15:55.340 1947 that Mr. Schall made in 1964. 3015 03:15:55.900 --> 03:16:01.520 yes sir now the second question is is there a 3016 03:16:01.520 --> 03:16:02.520 progression to 3017 03:16:02.400 --> 03:16:07.880 advanced asbestosis after exposure of an individual has been discontinued or has 3018 03:16:07.880 --> 03:16:08.960 been reduced to very 3019 03:16:08.960 --> 03:16:14.780 low levels due to action of dust deposits from earlier exposure this question is is 3020 03:16:14.780 --> 03:16:15.780 of very 3021 03:16:15.180 --> 03:16:20.060 great importance to intelligent medical supervision of workers in these plants now 3022 03:16:20.060 --> 03:16:21.060 doctors what he's 3023 03:16:20.800 --> 03:16:24.460 saying there what we were talking about earlier and that is whether or not a person 3024 03:16:24.460 --> 03:16:25.460 who's got 3025 03:16:24.820 --> 03:16:30.240 early asbestosis ought to be allowed to continue to work in the plant even if the 3026 03:16:30.240 --> 03:16:31.240 asbestos dust 3027 03:16:31.120 --> 03:16:33.040 is lower than the safe level. 3028 03:16:34.460 --> 03:16:36.780 He's saying that issue has not been answered. 3029 03:16:37.120 --> 03:16:38.120 Yes, sir. 3030 03:16:37.900 --> 03:16:41.280 Do you know whether the asbestos industry funded any studies 3031 03:16:41.280 --> 03:16:45.360 between 1947 and 1964 to find out 3032 03:16:45.360 --> 03:16:48.160 whether somebody who had early asbestosis 3033 03:16:48.160 --> 03:16:49.760 ought to be removed from exposure? 3034 03:16:50.480 --> 03:16:51.480 No. 3035 03:16:51.560 --> 03:16:53.960 And your review of the records have revealed none. 3036 03:16:54.060 --> 03:16:55.060 Is that correct? 3037 03:16:54.560 --> 03:16:55.560 That's correct. 3038 03:16:55.760 --> 03:17:02.170 Now, Doctor, if we could, please turn over to page 21. 3039 03:17:02.170 --> 03:17:08.130 one now i 3040 03:17:08.130 --> 03:17:13.550 believe uh mr Hemeon here is saying what we agreed on earlier and that is to really 3041 03:17:13.550 --> 03:17:19.490 understand whether or not you got the problem licked you got to match medical surveillance 3042 03:17:20.490 --> 03:17:24.270 examinations of the workers with dust camps is that what he's saying now 3043 03:17:41.960 --> 03:17:43.360 over on page 22 3044 03:17:45.060 --> 03:17:50.760 appraisal of reduced dust hazard you see the third paragraph there where mr Hemeon 3045 03:17:50.760 --> 03:17:51.760 says the 3046 03:17:51.700 --> 03:17:57.600 The information available does not permit complete assurance that 5 million, 3047 03:17:57.660 --> 03:18:02.620 I guess that's 5 million particles per cubic foot, is thoroughly safe, nor has 3048 03:18:02.620 --> 03:18:06.960 information been developed permitting a better estimate of safe touchiness. 3049 03:18:07.100 --> 03:18:08.100 Do you see that? 3050 03:18:07.820 --> 03:18:08.820 Yes, sir. 3051 03:18:08.340 --> 03:18:11.140 He's being critical of the threshold limit value, isn't he? 3052 03:18:12.040 --> 03:18:14.260 As reported in the recent study. 3053 03:18:14.280 --> 03:18:17.580 Yes, and he's urging that further studies be undertaken in it. 3054 03:18:18.540 --> 03:18:19.540 Isn't he, Doc? 3055 03:18:19.460 --> 03:18:20.460 Yes, sir. 3056 03:18:20.420 --> 03:18:26.320 and you don't know and you haven't seen any records to indicate that any studies were 3057 03:18:26.320 --> 03:18:31.500 followed up as a result of this 47 critical criticism that hadn't i'm not aware of any 3058 03:18:31.500 --> 03:18:34.680 now will you look down on the measurement of dustiness 3059 03:18:36.160 --> 03:18:41.700 yes sir he says the non-fibrous particles in most textile operations can 3060 03:18:41.700 --> 03:18:43.460 comprise 80 to 95 3061 03:18:43.460 --> 03:18:48.420 percent of the total dust seen in dust count you see that yes sir again what he's 3062 03:18:48.420 --> 03:18:49.420 pointing out is 3063 03:18:49.020 --> 03:18:54.300 the fact that the recent study counted all dust cotton rock and everything else not 3064 03:18:54.300 --> 03:18:55.300 just asbestos 3065 03:18:55.120 --> 03:19:01.040 isn't that correct yes sir all right now if you would 3066 03:19:01.040 --> 03:19:02.900 doctor let's look at page 23 a second 3067 03:19:04.120 --> 03:19:09.760 you mentioned uh to mr wilson that johns mambo had bought uh 3068 03:19:09.760 --> 03:19:14.000 dr selikoff sometime in the late 1960s 3069 03:19:14.000 --> 03:19:19.960 an electron microscope you remember that yes sir well do you see here 3070 03:19:19.960 --> 03:19:22.780 on page uh page 23 3071 03:19:22.780 --> 03:19:27.620 that uh mr heenan had an electron microscope yes 3072 03:19:29.190 --> 03:19:33.190 sure sir yes okay so he used an electron 3073 03:19:33.190 --> 03:19:38.110 microscope in this report didn't he just like that excuse me he's like i haven't 3074 03:19:38.110 --> 03:19:39.110 seen this 3075 03:19:38.430 --> 03:19:43.030 full report but he's just obviously he has an electron microscope way back in 1947 3076 03:19:44.590 --> 03:19:47.570 Now, on page 27, this 3077 03:19:51.340 --> 03:19:53.180 is his recommendation. Do you see that? 3078 03:19:54.280 --> 03:19:55.280 Yes, sir. 3079 03:19:55.060 --> 03:20:01.240 And he recommends that information be exchanged among the member countries. 3080 03:20:01.340 --> 03:20:02.340 Do you see that? 3081 03:20:02.080 --> 03:20:03.080 Yes, sir. 3082 03:20:02.940 --> 03:20:06.500 He says that they ought to develop new techniques for dust control. 3083 03:20:06.720 --> 03:20:07.720 Do you see that? 3084 03:20:07.440 --> 03:20:08.440 Yes, sir. 3085 03:20:08.500 --> 03:20:13.240 He says on page 28 they need to institute periodic medical exams. 3086 03:20:13.340 --> 03:20:14.340 Do you see that? 3087 03:20:13.960 --> 03:20:14.960 Yes, sir. 3088 03:20:14.380 --> 03:20:18.880 they need to organize a diagnostic panel for asbestosis you see that 3089 03:20:20.760 --> 03:20:25.440 b oh i'm sorry i'm still up in a i'm sorry sir see 3090 03:20:26.850 --> 03:20:30.490 uh b organization of a diagnostic panel for 3091 03:20:30.490 --> 03:20:36.270 asbestosis page 28 oh yeah you can start page yes sir and a 3092 03:20:36.270 --> 03:20:38.790 statistical study of existing medical 3093 03:20:38.790 --> 03:20:43.170 records do you see that yes sir and physical testing further death studies do you 3094 03:20:43.170 --> 03:20:44.170 see that 3095 03:20:43.550 --> 03:20:46.990 Yes, sir. And he says at the bottom and the conclusion 3096 03:20:46.990 --> 03:20:52.170 This is a step-by-step program aimed at the elimination of asbestosis cases from 3097 03:20:52.170 --> 03:20:55.230 the plants of Asbestos Textile Institute members 3098 03:20:55.230 --> 03:20:59.210 Isn't that correct? Yes, sir. Now doctor, isn't it a fact that the threshold limit 3099 03:20:59.210 --> 03:21:02.870 value for asbestos five million particles per cubic foot 3100 03:21:02.870 --> 03:21:06.490 Was the only standard that we used for all operations 3101 03:21:07.290 --> 03:21:13.330 insulation work, shipyard work, textile factories, mines, mills 3102 03:21:13.550 --> 03:21:19.650 the whole asbestos operation it was the one threshold under value all right now doctor 3103 03:21:19.650 --> 03:21:25.550 do you know whether or not the asbestos textile institute followed 3104 03:21:25.550 --> 03:21:27.730 through on mr Hemeon's 3105 03:21:27.730 --> 03:21:33.670 recommendation that dust studies be conducted i'm unaware of any i don't know okay 3106 03:21:33.670 --> 03:21:35.870 if i could 3107 03:21:50.080 --> 03:21:55.940 If you would, sir, this is 40 and 41, the minutes of the Air Hygiene 3108 03:21:55.940 --> 03:22:00.480 Committee of the Asbestos Textile Institute, November 19, 1947. 3109 03:22:01.640 --> 03:22:04.240 And if I'd ask you to look at that for a second. 3110 03:22:04.320 --> 03:22:07.680 And I don't have the one copy, doctor, so if you don't mind, I'd like to stand here. 3111 03:22:09.820 --> 03:22:13.280 Do you see where it's reported that Mr. Hemeon came in? 3112 03:22:15.320 --> 03:22:16.320 Yes, sir. 3113 03:22:16.060 --> 03:22:17.060 All right. 3114 03:22:16.680 --> 03:22:21.320 And it says, Mr. Hemion of the Industrial Hygiene Foundation proposes the following program. 3115 03:22:21.500 --> 03:22:22.500 Do you see that? 3116 03:22:22.040 --> 03:22:23.040 Yes, sir. 3117 03:22:22.520 --> 03:22:25.140 And is that, you can turn the page over to see. 3118 03:22:25.520 --> 03:22:29.340 Is that the program that he recommended in the June 1947 report? 3119 03:23:23.540 --> 03:23:24.540 I have that. 3120 03:23:24.340 --> 03:23:25.340 All right, sir. 3121 03:23:25.100 --> 03:23:30.660 Is that basically and essentially the same program he recommended in that June 1947 study? 3122 03:23:31.420 --> 03:23:32.420 Substantially. 3123 03:23:31.940 --> 03:23:32.940 All right. 3124 03:23:32.220 --> 03:23:38.200 Now, I hand you what's labeled K-41, which is the minutes of the general meeting 3125 03:23:38.200 --> 03:23:39.200 of the 3126 03:23:39.060 --> 03:23:43.720 Asbestos Textile Institute, June 17, 1948. 3127 03:23:44.300 --> 03:23:45.300 Yes, sir. 3128 03:23:45.180 --> 03:23:46.600 Let's take a look at that, sir. 3129 03:23:48.220 --> 03:23:53.920 Do you see where it's recorded that members, representatives from John's Mammal and Red 3130 03:23:53.920 --> 03:23:55.100 Vestas Manhattan were there? 3131 03:23:56.180 --> 03:23:58.260 On the list of attendees, yes, sir. 3132 03:23:58.420 --> 03:23:59.920 Did you know Mr. Fred Walkum? 3133 03:24:00.220 --> 03:24:01.220 No, sir. 3134 03:26:33.130 --> 03:26:36.370 47 and again in November of 47. 3135 03:26:36.750 --> 03:26:40.180 I'm sorry. 3136 03:26:40.340 --> 03:26:43.260 Does it not indicate that the study was rejected? Yes. 3137 03:26:45.400 --> 03:26:51.080 Now, Dr. Kooten, this low-level exposure, 3138 03:26:51.320 --> 03:26:54.480 when he says low-level exposure, they're talking about 3139 03:26:54.480 --> 03:26:58.520 exposure to levels below the threshold limit value is that how you understand 3140 03:26:58.520 --> 03:26:59.520 that's how i 3141 03:26:59.180 --> 03:27:05.160 understand it now these babies and wives in the homes of asbestos workers do you 3142 03:27:05.160 --> 03:27:06.160 have an opinion 3143 03:27:05.780 --> 03:27:11.260 as to whether or not they're exposed to levels greater or less than the threshold 3144 03:27:11.260 --> 03:27:12.260 limit value 3145 03:27:11.940 --> 03:27:17.100 of 5 million particles per cubic foot that was in effect from 1938 to 1968. 3146 03:27:18.240 --> 03:27:19.740 basically i think we 3147 03:27:19.740 --> 03:27:25.680 could measure it and find out the simulated conditions or 3148 03:27:25.680 --> 03:27:26.680 not but I am 3149 03:27:26.660 --> 03:27:29.820 satisfied that to 3150 03:27:33.850 --> 03:27:36.610 the question there's no way the answer can the question can 3151 03:27:36.610 --> 03:27:42.590 be answered because taking into account amount of fiber and 3152 03:27:42.590 --> 03:27:43.590 duration of exposure 3153 03:27:44.890 --> 03:27:49.910 not the best using the over five million particles per cubic feet 3154 03:27:49.910 --> 03:27:51.270 I don't think 3155 03:27:51.270 --> 03:27:55.590 you can assume that they were low-level exposures in fact there are no data to 3156 03:27:55.590 --> 03:28:01.370 support that and i've taken the position unrelated to this that and others have as 3157 03:28:01.370 --> 03:28:03.110 well that uh 3158 03:28:03.110 --> 03:28:06.970 because they weren't in the plant the corollary was not necessarily that they had 3159 03:28:06.970 --> 03:28:07.970 low level 3160 03:28:07.330 --> 03:28:12.150 exposure that's true for everybody that works with asbestos insulation workers 3161 03:28:12.150 --> 03:28:13.190 shipyard workers 3162 03:28:13.190 --> 03:28:18.590 plant workers and that's true doctor's response yes first response 3163 03:28:18.590 --> 03:28:20.770 the fact that you can't 3164 03:28:20.770 --> 03:28:25.270 consider that that it was low-level exposure in places other than the plant. 3165 03:28:25.410 --> 03:28:30.830 Well you can measure, you can't measure. Do you know whether or not any asbestos 3166 03:28:30.830 --> 03:28:31.830 company ever advised 3167 03:28:31.790 --> 03:28:36.030 any worker before 1964 to change their clothes before they went home so they 3168 03:28:36.030 --> 03:28:40.070 wouldn't subject their children and their wives to asbestos dust after the farm? 3169 03:28:40.330 --> 03:28:44.930 I don't know of any such thing. And there's disease now in children and wives of 3170 03:28:44.930 --> 03:28:48.610 asbestos workers in their doctor's families? There are reported diseases, yes. 3171 03:28:49.230 --> 03:28:50.230 Now, 3172 03:28:49.750 --> 03:28:55.730 Now, Dr. Kotin, this 1947 report, exhibit 3173 03:28:55.730 --> 03:28:59.510 number K-whatever-it-is, the best study. 3174 03:29:00.750 --> 03:29:02.290 Can you give me the number, please? 3175 03:29:02.430 --> 03:29:03.430 K-37. 3176 03:29:04.710 --> 03:29:07.190 That has never been published in the literature, has it? 3177 03:29:08.730 --> 03:29:09.730 I've never seen it. 3178 03:29:09.750 --> 03:29:12.930 You've never seen it, and you've tried to keep abreast of the literature, I believe 3179 03:29:12.930 --> 03:29:13.930 you said. 3180 03:29:13.490 --> 03:29:14.490 I think so. 3181 03:29:15.190 --> 03:29:17.350 And that's a significant study, isn't it, Doctor? 3182 03:29:17.630 --> 03:29:18.630 Exactly. 3183 03:29:19.290 --> 03:29:24.710 It's a study on the situation that was reviewed by the 3184 03:29:24.710 --> 03:29:28.450 Industrial Hygiene Foundation in 1947, yes. 3185 03:29:28.630 --> 03:29:30.470 It's a significant study, isn't it, Doctor? 3186 03:29:30.530 --> 03:29:35.630 I don't know if it's reviewed by significance, but did it reveal important information? 3187 03:29:36.030 --> 03:29:37.030 Yes, it did. 3188 03:29:38.960 --> 03:29:44.780 Now, Dr. Kotin, let's talk a second about the Fleischer study, okay? 3189 03:29:44.780 --> 03:29:50.300 sorry that's the one that was done of shipyard workers that you talked about on 3190 03:29:50.300 --> 03:29:51.300 direct do you 3191 03:29:50.940 --> 03:29:56.900 remember that yes sir and that was done in uh i believe 1946 wasn't it yes 3192 03:29:56.900 --> 03:30:01.580 sir excuse me for a 3193 03:30:01.580 --> 03:30:05.020 second while i found my coffee perhaps mr wilson can give you the copy that he 3194 03:30:05.020 --> 03:30:06.020 introduced on the 3195 03:30:05.760 --> 03:30:09.990 rest is this yours have 3196 03:30:17.930 --> 03:30:21.710 you found the one that mr wilson used doctor so i have nothing here 3197 03:30:21.710 --> 03:30:25.650 one other than what you've given me this morning come on 3198 03:30:29.900 --> 03:30:31.560 i have one chocolate i'd kind of like to 3199 03:30:31.560 --> 03:30:37.560 follow along well can we stop and take a second i probably 3200 03:30:37.560 --> 03:30:39.280 can find two there's no use to have 3201 03:30:39.280 --> 03:30:40.280 now 3202 03:30:39.660 --> 03:30:47.160 um 3203 03:30:54.480 --> 03:31:00.240 dr Kotin uh the flasher study was a study of shipyard workers wasn't it 3204 03:31:00.240 --> 03:31:01.240 yes sir 3205 03:31:00.820 --> 03:31:05.180 And the threshold limit value of five million particles per cubic foot of total 3206 03:31:05.180 --> 03:31:07.200 dust have been in effect for 3207 03:31:08.000 --> 03:31:10.380 Eight years when that study was running that correct 3208 03:31:11.180 --> 03:31:15.420 Well, I've only got one minute. Mr. Wilson doesn't mind me leaning over your shoulder. 3209 03:31:15.440 --> 03:31:18.280 I'll let you look at mine. I 3210 03:31:18.280 --> 03:31:19.460 Don't even mind 3211 03:31:21.880 --> 03:31:26.040 And I wanted to turn over doctor to the place where they got all these death camps, 3212 03:31:26.080 --> 03:31:27.080 yes, sir, okay 3213 03:31:27.600 --> 03:31:29.980 It's table two on page 14. Mr. Wilson 3214 03:31:33.120 --> 03:31:39.100 now let me ask you to k2 let me ask you a few general questions 3215 03:31:39.100 --> 03:31:40.100 before we get back 3216 03:31:39.800 --> 03:31:45.620 about this life stuff number one i have a copy here 3217 03:31:45.620 --> 03:31:48.120 of the bibliography that was prepared of 3218 03:31:48.120 --> 03:31:52.020 all the medical articles in the john's mammal library that was prepared after you 3219 03:31:52.020 --> 03:31:53.020 got here 3220 03:31:52.940 --> 03:31:56.880 and this is uh exhibit number what's this number 3221 03:32:02.780 --> 03:32:08.360 42 and i'd ask you to identify this doctor she was 3222 03:32:08.360 --> 03:32:12.000 yes sir is that the bibliography that was 3223 03:32:12.880 --> 03:32:16.700 uh compiled with your direction after you got here in 74. 3224 03:32:17.020 --> 03:32:18.860 yes sir now i believe you've looked 3225 03:32:18.860 --> 03:32:24.720 through that before but tell the jury whether the flasher study was found in the 3226 03:32:24.720 --> 03:32:25.720 medical articles 3227 03:32:26.140 --> 03:32:32.120 of john samuel after you got here is it included in this yes no there's one 3228 03:32:32.120 --> 03:32:33.160 of many many that are 3229 03:32:33.160 --> 03:32:39.160 not included but it's not included in yeah all right now you 3230 03:32:39.160 --> 03:32:41.200 yourself were not aware of the 3231 03:32:41.200 --> 03:32:46.680 flasher study didn't read it until 1960 something i went with the government about 3232 03:32:46.680 --> 03:32:47.880 1960 something 3233 03:32:49.940 --> 03:32:55.790 okay now doctor if you would let's 3234 03:32:55.790 --> 03:33:00.030 take a look at these dust camps now 3235 03:33:04.740 --> 03:33:06.940 do you see that they had uh 3236 03:33:06.940 --> 03:33:12.740 two dust counts total dust and asbestos dust you see that yes sir and the 3237 03:33:12.740 --> 03:33:13.740 threshold limit value 3238 03:33:13.700 --> 03:33:19.200 measures what total dust all right you see the dust counts reported there yes the range 3239 03:33:20.120 --> 03:33:24.960 3.5 to 8.7, is 8.7 above or below? 3240 03:33:25.740 --> 03:33:27.700 For that single measurement, it's above. 3241 03:33:28.000 --> 03:33:29.240 All right, and the average was what? 3242 03:33:29.260 --> 03:33:30.260 Let me make one point. 3243 03:33:30.240 --> 03:33:31.240 All right, go ahead. 3244 03:33:30.860 --> 03:33:34.040 That you can have, that's why we use time- weighted averages, 3245 03:33:34.760 --> 03:33:37.380 because you can still be within the time- weighted average 3246 03:33:37.380 --> 03:33:39.420 and still have an occasional count above that. 3247 03:33:39.440 --> 03:33:42.020 In fact, that happens all the time, and that is figured in 3248 03:33:42.020 --> 03:33:44.900 into developing the concept of a threshold limit value, 3249 03:33:45.020 --> 03:33:48.340 the acceptance and recognition that some measurements may be above. 3250 03:33:48.340 --> 03:33:52.420 right now do you know what kind of study they did at the shipyard yes sir all right 3251 03:33:52.420 --> 03:33:53.420 it was time 3252 03:33:52.760 --> 03:33:58.120 weighted average right yes sir all right so the average is reported in this column 3253 03:33:58.120 --> 03:33:59.900 as layout and 3254 03:33:59.900 --> 03:34:05.360 cutting and navy yard a is 6.1 is that above or below it's above the 3255 03:34:05.360 --> 03:34:07.780 navy rd was 4.2 is that 3256 03:34:07.780 --> 03:34:13.600 above or below below 20.0 is that above or below okay 10 3257 03:34:13.600 --> 03:34:16.060 .9 is above it yes sir cutting with the 3258 03:34:16.060 --> 03:34:21.700 band saw 15.1 that's above it that's three times above it yes sir all right 3259 03:34:21.700 --> 03:34:23.980 and then the next one's 3260 03:34:23.980 --> 03:34:29.620 39.5 that's that's eight times above it yes sir 3261 03:34:29.620 --> 03:34:32.760 and the next one is 73 plus that's astronomical 3262 03:34:32.760 --> 03:34:38.500 isn't it well it's a lot more than than eight times right 4.6 3263 03:34:38.500 --> 03:34:41.700 that's below right 6.8 that's 3264 03:34:41.700 --> 03:34:47.500 above key point one that's below 11.4 that's above 6.0 that's 3265 03:34:47.500 --> 03:34:50.600 above 31.0 that's above 84 3266 03:34:51.180 --> 03:34:55.380 above that's way above because my also appearing on the video 3267 03:34:55.380 --> 03:35:01.320 i said we only have one copy mr wilson 3268 03:35:01.320 --> 03:35:03.740 wants to retain his copy and if it's stricken it just has 3269 03:35:03.740 --> 03:35:07.740 to be stricken but we don't have a copy making we've got time constraints you want 3270 03:35:07.740 --> 03:35:08.740 to stop the 3271 03:35:08.200 --> 03:35:13.240 table go make a copy and i'll start over you can just read the numbers 3272 03:35:13.240 --> 03:35:15.560 they're self-evident 3273 03:35:15.560 --> 03:35:20.200 whether they're above or below i agree with mr wilson doctor on down the chart 3274 03:35:20.200 --> 03:35:22.300 is it not true 3275 03:35:22.880 --> 03:35:28.720 that with three or four exceptions the 30-some-odd camp were all 3276 03:35:28.720 --> 03:35:30.280 about the fresh orange 3277 03:35:30.280 --> 03:35:33.180 of that and that's right but 3278 03:35:36.250 --> 03:35:41.210 three are out of my county with fewer yes sir there's one 3279 03:35:41.210 --> 03:35:48.710 and 30 3280 03:35:51.120 --> 03:35:56.800 somewhere above is that right that's correct okay so 10 were below and 90 3281 03:35:56.800 --> 03:35:58.620 were above yes sir okay 3282 03:35:58.620 --> 03:36:04.400 now doctor do you know what george wright is yes sir dr george and dr george 3283 03:36:04.400 --> 03:36:05.400 wright was a 3284 03:36:05.400 --> 03:36:11.060 consultant to john's mammal back in 1972 was he not yes sir and are you familiar 3285 03:36:11.060 --> 03:36:12.520 at the time are 3286 03:36:12.520 --> 03:36:17.920 you familiar with the um osha hearings they had to set a level of exposure to 3287 03:36:17.920 --> 03:36:19.220 asbestos back in 1972 3288 03:36:19.220 --> 03:36:24.760 yes sir and are you familiar with dr wright's testimony i was aware that he 3289 03:36:24.760 --> 03:36:25.760 testified his 3290 03:36:25.540 --> 03:36:30.760 details are you aware that he testified that dust exposure for insulation workers 3291 03:36:30.760 --> 03:36:32.300 in the 30s and 40s 3292 03:36:32.300 --> 03:36:37.640 and 50s were grossly in excess of the threshold and do you 3293 03:36:39.980 --> 03:36:42.360 have any information before 1964 to 3294 03:36:42.360 --> 03:36:47.920 indicate otherwise not that i'm aware of and to the extent that someone knew that a 3295 03:36:47.920 --> 03:36:48.920 dust count 3296 03:36:48.480 --> 03:36:53.720 might be above the threshold limit value is it not your firm opinion sir that that 3297 03:36:53.720 --> 03:36:54.720 person ought 3298 03:36:54.300 --> 03:36:59.800 to have been advised to avoid exposures above the threshold okay he should have 3299 03:36:59.800 --> 03:37:00.800 yeah he should have 3300 03:37:00.460 --> 03:37:05.840 not have been exposed to the group all right doctor we're going to move on to 3301 03:37:05.840 --> 03:37:06.840 another search 3302 03:37:06.780 --> 03:37:10.420 Dr. Kotin 3303 03:37:17.650 --> 03:37:22.710 are you familiar with a study done of insulation workers 3304 03:37:22.710 --> 03:37:26.390 in denmark back in 1956 3305 03:37:29.430 --> 03:37:34.390 you recall that that was a survey of insulation workers at that shipyard 3306 03:37:34.390 --> 03:37:39.210 who have been exposed for more than 20 years to asbestos and other things. 3307 03:37:39.770 --> 03:37:43.990 I think he was in fact published in the Danish Medieval Bulletin. 3308 03:37:44.190 --> 03:37:46.850 Yes, sir. Back in 1956. 3309 03:37:48.650 --> 03:37:52.470 And do you recall that Dr. 3310 03:37:52.630 --> 03:37:58.380 Frost was the author of that and that in his summary he stated, 3311 03:37:58.380 --> 03:38:03.700 31 workers engaged for 20 years or more in different kinds of insulation works 3312 03:38:03.700 --> 03:38:08.180 were examined for occupational lung disease. They had been exposed to dust 3313 03:38:08.180 --> 03:38:12.680 containing asbestos, chisel glue, magnesium, glass wool, and rock wool. 3314 03:38:12.940 --> 03:38:13.940 Nine were 3315 03:38:13.860 --> 03:38:17.080 found to have definite signs of pulmonary asbestosis. Nine. 3316 03:38:18.180 --> 03:38:19.180 Nineteen showed 3317 03:38:19.040 --> 03:38:23.480 abnormalities of the pleura, the lining of the lung that you showed the jury up 3318 03:38:23.480 --> 03:38:29.440 there and that's 19 and 31 12 of these being 3319 03:38:29.440 --> 03:38:31.460 bilateral does that mean on both sides of the 3320 03:38:31.460 --> 03:38:36.580 land yes sir okay in 11 cases calcification of the pleura was found 3321 03:38:36.580 --> 03:38:38.440 that's the the uh 3322 03:38:39.620 --> 03:38:43.540 that's the deposits that get on the floor is that what he's talking about 3323 03:38:43.540 --> 03:38:44.680 calcifications of the 3324 03:38:44.680 --> 03:38:50.160 pleura yeah just calcification of the pleura okay and those are all asbestosis 3325 03:38:50.160 --> 03:38:54.760 um and calcification 3326 03:38:54.760 --> 03:38:59.600 of the poor are diseases related asbestos exposure they're not diseases 3327 03:38:59.600 --> 03:39:05.480 changes in the poor are not diseases they are changes to the body that occur 3328 03:39:05.480 --> 03:39:12.280 from asbestos exposure and in the opinion of authorities whose supreme 3329 03:39:12.280 --> 03:39:16.400 whose authority is universally recognized they are not categorized as 3330 03:39:16.400 --> 03:39:20.400 disease dr. Selikoff calls it plural asbestos 3331 03:39:20.400 --> 03:39:25.840 And Professor Edward Gaensler calls it pleural changes, but I 3332 03:39:25.840 --> 03:39:29.600 think the prevailing opinion is that, as Dr. 3333 03:39:29.640 --> 03:39:35.580 Gaensler has said so well, that pleural 3334 03:39:35.580 --> 03:39:41.540 changes are not disease, they are stigmata of exposure, and are 3335 03:39:41.540 --> 03:39:42.620 not related to disease. 3336 03:39:43.200 --> 03:39:48.280 Well, Dr. Selikoff in that book that you wrote before takes a different position there. 3337 03:39:48.280 --> 03:39:50.460 Yeah, may I read what Dr. Gaensler says? 3338 03:39:50.880 --> 03:39:51.880 Pardon? 3339 03:39:51.700 --> 03:39:53.800 And I guess this has to become part of the record. 3340 03:39:58.730 --> 03:40:01.290 Because the question is of such great significance, 3341 03:40:02.470 --> 03:40:06.330 I did ask Dr. Gaensler. 3342 03:40:07.110 --> 03:40:10.550 Dr. Gaensler is professor of thoracic surgery 3343 03:40:10.550 --> 03:40:13.630 at Boston University School of Medicine. 3344 03:40:14.450 --> 03:40:15.490 Again, recognized. 3345 03:40:16.470 --> 03:40:18.510 Excuse me, who are you, what are you reading from, doctor? 3346 03:40:18.510 --> 03:40:24.830 I will show you a letter, a memo on Boston University Medical Center signed by Dr. 3347 03:40:24.970 --> 03:40:28.130 S. Gaensler, an explanation of plaques. 3348 03:40:28.390 --> 03:40:33.100 We only have two minutes on this take. 3349 03:40:33.280 --> 03:40:37.920 Plaques are a slight thickening like a callus between lung and chest wall. 3350 03:40:39.240 --> 03:40:44.260 Sometimes calcium is deposited in them and they can be clearly seen on chest x-ray. 3351 03:40:45.240 --> 03:40:49.800 It has been reported both from New York and from Dresden, Germany, that as many as 3352 03:40:49.800 --> 03:40:55.700 80 percent of the persons have these slight harmless thickenings when there has 3353 03:40:55.700 --> 03:40:58.080 been an exposure to asbestos, however slight. 3354 03:40:58.580 --> 03:41:02.820 We have seen them in executives of shipyards who worked in offices only and in 3355 03:41:02.820 --> 03:41:06.600 persons who many years ago were exposed for only a few months. 3356 03:41:07.400 --> 03:41:09.940 Rarely they also occur in unexposed persons. 3357 03:41:09.940 --> 03:41:15.940 such person such plaques must be considered an x-ray abnormality but 3358 03:41:15.940 --> 03:41:17.580 they know but they in no 3359 03:41:17.580 --> 03:41:22.480 way impair health or breathing or lung function nor do they appear to be harmful in 3360 03:41:22.480 --> 03:41:23.720 any way they 3361 03:41:23.720 --> 03:41:28.820 are merely a sign of asbestos exposure but not a sign of disease now 3362 03:41:28.820 --> 03:41:33.620 doctor 3363 03:41:37.040 --> 03:41:39.620 whether or not these 3364 03:41:39.620 --> 03:41:43.920 plural thickenings and plaques cause impairment. Dr. 3365 03:41:44.060 --> 03:41:47.200 Frost back in 1956 reported that they existed 3366 03:41:47.200 --> 03:41:50.400 in asbestos workers. That's correct. And Dr. 3367 03:41:50.580 --> 03:41:52.480 Selikoff and some others don't necessarily agree 3368 03:41:52.480 --> 03:41:56.740 with you and this other gentleman who you quoted and say that in fact it might even 3369 03:41:56.740 --> 03:41:58.380 be an increased 3370 03:41:58.380 --> 03:42:03.740 risk to mesothelioma when you have those things. An increased risk to 3371 03:42:03.740 --> 03:42:05.540 mesothelioma when you have 3372 03:42:05.540 --> 03:42:11.400 those calluses on the plurals. But I would emphasize again that notwithstanding this 3373 03:42:11.400 --> 03:42:15.160 difference that Dr. Selikoff and I have, he thinks enough of my opinion to have 3374 03:42:15.160 --> 03:42:16.480 honored me by 3375 03:42:16.480 --> 03:42:19.540 writing the preface or the opening to his book. 3376 03:42:19.760 --> 03:42:25.360 Move to strike. Now, doctor, with respect to Dr. 3377 03:42:25.560 --> 03:42:26.560 Frost again, 3378 03:42:27.260 --> 03:42:31.240 and let's forget about these pleural calcifications. You don't think they cause 3379 03:42:31.240 --> 03:42:32.480 harm and other people 3380 03:42:32.480 --> 03:42:36.720 think to do let's talk about asbestosis because you agree i think that that is a 3381 03:42:36.720 --> 03:42:37.720 bad disease can 3382 03:42:37.460 --> 03:42:43.020 be yes sir all right now dr 3383 03:42:43.020 --> 03:42:49.120 frost found 31 workers out of the 31 workers he found nine to have 3384 03:42:49.540 --> 03:42:53.860 definite signs of pulmonary asbestosis isn't that correct yes that's an incident 3385 03:42:53.860 --> 03:42:55.240 rate of what 33 3386 03:42:55.240 --> 03:42:59.320 percent. Out of 31, what was it? 3387 03:42:59.680 --> 03:43:03.680 I'd like to see it. Oh, sure. Yes, sir. 3388 03:43:04.980 --> 03:43:08.980 We're going to talk incidents. 3389 03:43:09.180 --> 03:43:13.640 I would like to take a look at it. This is number 44. 3390 03:43:14.220 --> 03:43:15.220 I'm 3391 03:43:50.910 --> 03:43:56.370 looking for a table. I'm going to have to read it because I don't see a table. 3392 03:44:11.370 --> 03:44:15.010 No, no. There isn't any table, Bob. 3393 03:44:16.910 --> 03:44:17.910 No. 3394 03:45:22.800 --> 03:45:28.320 ...figure of around 30% and that's the striking incidence of asbestos-resistant 3395 03:45:28.320 --> 03:45:32.220 abacus. For me it was striking. 3396 03:45:32.480 --> 03:45:35.700 Yes. 30% incidence of asbestos. That's a large 3397 03:45:35.700 --> 03:45:38.860 incidence. It's 3398 03:45:42.320 --> 03:45:44.900 a significant amount of disease. That report 3399 03:45:44.900 --> 03:45:49.200 made it highly 3400 03:45:49.200 --> 03:45:54.820 suspicious and I'm going to use terms and I ask you to pay close attention. 3401 03:45:55.180 --> 03:45:56.180 That 3402 03:45:55.780 --> 03:46:01.500 That report was highly suspicious that asbestosis was a definite hazard 3403 03:46:01.500 --> 03:46:03.900 to insulation workers, wasn't it, Doctor? 3404 03:46:04.000 --> 03:46:09.900 It was highly suspicious and definite, I don't know, it 3405 03:46:09.900 --> 03:46:15.680 was highly suspicious that asbestosis was a complication of 3406 03:46:15.680 --> 03:46:18.200 the insulation workers in this population. 3407 03:46:18.520 --> 03:46:19.520 Thank you. 3408 03:46:18.900 --> 03:46:21.540 Now, Doctor, I hand you K-45. 3409 03:46:24.840 --> 03:46:25.840 What is that? 3410 03:46:25.720 --> 03:46:31.040 K-45 is the Industrial Hygiene Digest, June 1957. 3411 03:46:32.340 --> 03:46:36.300 I believe you expressed some familiarity with the Industrial Hygiene Foundation and 3412 03:46:36.300 --> 03:46:37.460 the Digest, did you not? 3413 03:46:37.680 --> 03:46:38.680 I did. 3414 03:46:38.320 --> 03:46:39.320 All right. 3415 03:46:38.740 --> 03:46:44.180 And is not the Industrial Hygiene Digest a monthly publication 3416 03:46:44.180 --> 03:46:47.440 that contains medical abstracts 3417 03:46:47.440 --> 03:46:50.600 or summaries of medical articles reported in the world literature? 3418 03:46:50.880 --> 03:46:53.220 Literature abstracts. It's probably just medical. 3419 03:46:53.440 --> 03:46:55.180 Okay. If you would turn to the back. 3420 03:46:56.800 --> 03:47:00.840 literature abstracts rather than just... Turn to the back, please, doctor. 3421 03:47:01.000 --> 03:47:02.740 The very last page of the index. 3422 03:47:07.800 --> 03:47:11.860 Okay. Look under. Do you see the word asbestosis in the index? 3423 03:47:13.880 --> 03:47:15.700 Yes, sir. And do you see a citation? 3424 03:47:16.480 --> 03:47:22.400 761. All right. Now, if you would, turn to abstract number 761, 3425 03:47:22.460 --> 03:47:25.440 which is over on page 16. 3426 03:47:27.120 --> 03:47:33.000 yes sir do you see reference to the frost study of asbestosis in shipyard 3427 03:47:33.000 --> 03:47:35.080 workers i do all right 3428 03:47:35.080 --> 03:47:40.880 and do you see that they report that man of the workers had asbestosis exactly 3429 03:47:51.800 --> 03:47:53.620 all right and the 3430 03:47:53.620 --> 03:47:57.680 title of the thing is asbestosis with pleural calcification among insulation 3431 03:47:57.680 --> 03:47:58.680 workers did you 3432 03:47:58.560 --> 03:48:02.460 see that yes sir all right is that the same study that we were talking about a 3433 03:48:02.460 --> 03:48:03.460 minute ago with the 3434 03:48:03.320 --> 03:48:07.720 significant disease and insulation workers? Yes, sir. Do you know who gets copies 3435 03:48:07.720 --> 03:48:08.720 of the 3436 03:48:08.000 --> 03:48:11.520 Industrial Hygiene Digest? Members of the Industrial Hygiene Foundation. 3437 03:48:11.900 --> 03:48:12.900 Members of 3438 03:48:12.540 --> 03:48:17.360 the Industrial Hygiene Foundation. So if a company had a medical director, then he 3439 03:48:17.360 --> 03:48:18.360 didn't read 3440 03:48:17.660 --> 03:48:22.720 anything else. I just read these abstracts in the back. He could have very easily found 3441 03:48:22.720 --> 03:48:27.140 the reference to the Frost study, couldn't he? If he read this, he would have seen 3442 03:48:27.140 --> 03:48:28.140 the reference 3443 03:48:28.060 --> 03:48:31.740 to the first thing now dr. 3444 03:48:34.720 --> 03:48:38.520 you spent a great deal of your professional career 3445 03:48:40.220 --> 03:48:44.900 conducting research into the health effects of air pollution did among 3446 03:48:44.900 --> 03:48:49.320 other things yes and in that research you used experimental animals to find 3447 03:48:49.320 --> 03:48:54.660 out how certain things affect the lungs yes sir now back in the 3448 03:48:54.660 --> 03:48:56.340 1920s and 30s 3449 03:48:56.340 --> 03:49:01.080 and 40s and 50s there was a research laboratory in new york called saranac 3450 03:49:01.080 --> 03:49:02.080 laboratory wasn't it 3451 03:49:01.960 --> 03:49:07.340 yes sir and these fellas up there dr Vorwald and dr gardner 3452 03:49:07.340 --> 03:49:09.800 and later dr Schepers were experts 3453 03:49:10.200 --> 03:49:14.740 at running tests on animals to find out if certain substances could cause disease 3454 03:49:14.740 --> 03:49:15.740 in those animals 3455 03:49:15.420 --> 03:49:21.140 weren't they yes sir and they were to asbestos what you were to hydrocarbons 3456 03:49:21.140 --> 03:49:22.340 weren't i don't 3457 03:49:22.340 --> 03:49:24.360 I don't know if they'd be flattered with that analogy. 3458 03:49:24.820 --> 03:49:26.060 That's probably different, Doc. 3459 03:49:26.140 --> 03:49:29.000 You're the world's leading expert on hydrocarbons, 3460 03:49:29.100 --> 03:49:32.720 and these fellas were among the world's leading experts on asbestos, weren't they? 3461 03:49:32.780 --> 03:49:33.780 I would say so. 3462 03:49:33.720 --> 03:49:34.720 Fine. 3463 03:49:34.940 --> 03:49:38.180 And in the 1930s, Dr. 3464 03:49:38.420 --> 03:49:40.540 Gardner and Mr. Cummings, 3465 03:49:40.560 --> 03:49:43.020 who later came out here to Colorado, and others, 3466 03:49:43.120 --> 03:49:49.200 ran tests on animals, subjected them to asbestos, didn't they? 3467 03:49:49.300 --> 03:49:50.300 Yes, sir. 3468 03:49:49.780 --> 03:49:53.280 And they concluded that asbestos caused asbestosis, didn't they? 3469 03:49:53.440 --> 03:49:54.440 They did. 3470 03:49:54.200 --> 03:49:59.560 And are you familiar with the fact that they ran tests using different kinds and qualities 3471 03:49:59.560 --> 03:50:00.560 of asbestos? 3472 03:50:00.540 --> 03:50:01.860 Different products, yes, sir. 3473 03:50:02.180 --> 03:50:07.880 And in some of the things they used contained as little as 14% asbestos and the 3474 03:50:07.880 --> 03:50:08.880 rest was 3475 03:50:08.280 --> 03:50:09.380 serpentine rock, right? 3476 03:50:09.840 --> 03:50:13.520 As I recall, that was one of the experimental models, yes. 3477 03:50:13.700 --> 03:50:18.260 And they exposed those animals for periods ranging from two to four years, didn't they? 3478 03:50:18.260 --> 03:50:19.260 Yes, sir. 3479 03:50:19.180 --> 03:50:24.600 And they expose them to levels anywhere from 6 million particles per cubic foot 3480 03:50:24.600 --> 03:50:26.700 up to 138 3481 03:50:26.700 --> 03:50:28.060 million particles per cubic foot. 3482 03:50:28.060 --> 03:50:29.300 That's an intolerable dose. 3483 03:50:29.500 --> 03:50:30.500 Right. 3484 03:50:30.320 --> 03:50:34.740 And one of the reasons you expose animals to higher levels than human beings breathe 3485 03:50:35.180 --> 03:50:37.260 is because an animal don't live as long as a human being. 3486 03:50:37.320 --> 03:50:38.320 Isn't that right? 3487 03:50:38.240 --> 03:50:39.240 That's one. 3488 03:50:39.160 --> 03:50:40.160 One reason. 3489 03:50:40.020 --> 03:50:41.020 One of many, many. 3490 03:50:41.040 --> 03:50:42.040 Right. 3491 03:50:41.380 --> 03:50:43.120 It's not necessarily the determining one. 3492 03:50:43.120 --> 03:50:48.880 and do you agree that animal experiments have a high index of 3493 03:50:48.880 --> 03:50:49.880 meaningfulness for 3494 03:50:49.760 --> 03:50:54.620 human beings? In direct proportion to the quality of the study. 3495 03:50:54.740 --> 03:50:56.960 Right and Dr. Vorwal 3496 03:50:56.960 --> 03:51:02.600 and Dr. Gardner were pioneers in developing scientific techniques for 3497 03:51:02.600 --> 03:51:07.860 testing animals with dust diseases weren't they? They were among the very first yes. 3498 03:51:09.020 --> 03:51:11.220 Now doctor 3499 03:51:11.220 --> 03:51:16.780 Doctor, was it not known that in 1950 that substances containing 3500 03:51:16.780 --> 03:51:20.440 small percentages of asbestos fiber would produce asbestos? 3501 03:51:20.600 --> 03:51:23.760 I think some of their studies showed that. I don't know what you mean by small. 3502 03:51:24.200 --> 03:51:25.700 Less than 20%. 3503 03:51:25.700 --> 03:51:27.020 It was shown that... 3504 03:51:27.020 --> 03:51:28.940 Well, as long as you give me a number, yes. 3505 03:51:29.200 --> 03:51:30.220 Less than 20%. 3506 03:51:30.220 --> 03:51:31.220 Yeah, okay. 3507 03:51:38.300 --> 03:51:42.820 Do you agree that an agent that can cause disease in a mouth 3508 03:51:42.820 --> 03:51:46.280 can also cause disease in human beings? 3509 03:51:46.400 --> 03:51:47.800 Some can, some do not. 3510 03:51:47.960 --> 03:51:48.960 Right. 3511 03:51:50.000 --> 03:51:55.580 And recently several companies had studies done with experimental 3512 03:51:55.580 --> 03:52:00.660 animals using a substance, some type of fiberglass, to find out whether fiberglass 3513 03:52:00.660 --> 03:52:02.760 could cause disease in human beings. Isn't that right? 3514 03:52:03.180 --> 03:52:07.920 To find out whether it could cause it in animals and then see what relevance these 3515 03:52:07.920 --> 03:52:09.160 findings would have to make. 3516 03:52:09.260 --> 03:52:14.780 Okay. And based on those studies, your company and others concluded that fiberglass 3517 03:52:14.780 --> 03:52:17.980 could be used by human beings without any disease. 3518 03:52:18.140 --> 03:52:19.140 Isn't that correct? 3519 03:52:18.560 --> 03:52:23.840 correct? Yes sir. So you yourself think that those kind of studies are useful to 3520 03:52:23.840 --> 03:52:24.840 find out whether or 3521 03:52:24.660 --> 03:52:29.540 not a product causes harm in animals so that you can have some reasonable basis to 3522 03:52:29.540 --> 03:52:30.540 conclude that 3523 03:52:30.500 --> 03:52:34.680 it doesn't cause disease in human beings? The only correction I would make is that 3524 03:52:34.680 --> 03:52:35.740 it's part of an 3525 03:52:36.440 --> 03:52:39.840 array of information and data. It isn't the only thing. 3526 03:52:39.920 --> 03:52:43.300 Okay and doctor you you were writing back 3527 03:52:43.300 --> 03:52:47.520 in the early 1950s that companies ought to run tests on their products before they 3528 03:52:47.520 --> 03:52:48.520 sold them. 3529 03:52:48.560 --> 03:52:51.780 i recall taking that position right and 3530 03:52:57.160 --> 03:53:02.010 doctor in 1950 were you of the opinion that it was better to find out in 3531 03:53:02.010 --> 03:53:03.090 experimental animals 3532 03:53:03.520 --> 03:53:08.170 that a product caused disease than to discover it later in industrial workers who 3533 03:53:08.170 --> 03:53:09.170 use that product 3534 03:53:09.440 --> 03:53:15.210 yes sir now i'm 3535 03:53:22.920 --> 03:53:28.820 going to hand you exhibit number 46 doctor which purports 3536 03:53:28.820 --> 03:53:29.820 to be 3537 03:53:31.420 --> 03:53:35.180 made by the president of Johns Mountain, back in 1955. 3538 03:53:48.250 --> 03:53:52.510 You see the speech in there, Doctor? 3539 03:53:53.290 --> 03:53:56.230 Yes. And you see the section called Responsibility 3540 03:53:56.230 --> 03:54:00.290 to the Consuming Public? What page is that on? I think it's on page 7, but 3541 03:54:00.290 --> 03:54:03.710 I know 17 or something like that. I have it. 3542 03:54:03.770 --> 03:54:04.770 17 3543 03:54:04.110 --> 03:54:07.890 is right. And you see in there where he talks about warning labels? 3544 03:54:08.450 --> 03:54:11.770 Let me read this. May I? Yes, would you read that section 3545 03:54:11.770 --> 03:54:12.990 End of the record, please. 3546 03:54:14.610 --> 03:54:17.710 Well, since you're winding down, I'll read. 3547 03:54:18.030 --> 03:54:20.250 I've been trying to preserve my voice, as you can hear. 3548 03:54:20.290 --> 03:54:21.290 Yes, I know. 3549 03:54:21.250 --> 03:54:22.250 Well, let's go. 3550 03:54:22.250 --> 03:54:23.550 Why don't you read it, please? 3551 03:54:23.610 --> 03:54:24.610 I'll be delighted to. 3552 03:54:24.870 --> 03:54:25.870 Thank you. 3553 03:54:26.890 --> 03:54:29.050 Keeping you in trim, having you jump up and down. 3554 03:54:29.050 --> 03:54:32.050 Without objection, of course, to the use of the document and so forth. 3555 03:54:33.010 --> 03:54:34.010 It says here, 3556 03:54:34.890 --> 03:54:40.450 as with the rest of industry this is in 1955 by the president of young men we 3557 03:54:40.450 --> 03:54:45.670 are also aware of our responsibilities to the consuming public I found my 3558 03:54:45.670 --> 03:54:48.590 topics I'll give you your thank you sir today 3559 03:54:53.460 --> 03:54:55.340 the products of industry are 3560 03:54:55.340 --> 03:54:59.080 designed to promote the health and comfort of the public industry is 3561 03:54:59.080 --> 03:55:03.040 constantly striving to bring about more pleasant living through improved 3562 03:55:03.040 --> 03:55:07.780 products that better values to the consumer more every effort was made 3563 03:55:07.780 --> 03:55:12.420 nowadays to protect the consumer with safer products and better methods of handling them 3564 03:55:12.940 --> 03:55:17.840 years ago industrial research was unconcerned about problems of health and safety 3565 03:55:17.840 --> 03:55:18.840 that might 3566 03:55:18.220 --> 03:55:22.280 be involved in a product when the product was developed it was put on the market 3567 03:55:23.180 --> 03:55:28.180 today our industrial research organizations probe into every health hazard and every 3568 03:55:28.180 --> 03:55:33.680 safeguard is insisted upon before the product is marketed to the consumer and now 3569 03:55:33.680 --> 03:55:34.760 the last sentence 3570 03:55:34.760 --> 03:55:40.620 He says an industry has inspired to a very great extent the movement to label properly 3571 03:55:40.620 --> 03:55:45.140 Certain types of products that might harm the consumer. He were not forewarned. 3572 03:55:45.140 --> 03:55:46.140 Do you see that? 3573 03:55:45.680 --> 03:55:49.920 I do and do you concur with what mr. Fisher said back in 1955 about 3574 03:55:50.960 --> 03:55:54.520 Making every effort to find out whether product is safe before you sell. 3575 03:55:54.660 --> 03:55:55.660 Yes 3576 03:55:55.720 --> 03:55:58.920 Doctor and your review of the records. Oh 3577 03:55:58.920 --> 03:56:02.280 And you also agree that products are belated. Well, we're inappropriate. 3578 03:56:02.560 --> 03:56:03.680 There's no caveat 3579 03:56:04.760 --> 03:56:10.700 And, Doctor, do you know of any tests that were run by any asbestos insulation 3580 03:56:10.700 --> 03:56:16.600 company on their products to find out whether or not those products could 3581 03:56:16.600 --> 03:56:21.240 cause human beings, could cause disease in human beings before they were sold? 3582 03:56:21.620 --> 03:56:23.620 Any insulation company? No. 3583 03:56:23.680 --> 03:56:29.660 Yes. Now, Doctor, have you been made familiar with a product called 3584 03:56:29.660 --> 03:56:31.380 KAYLO, K-A-Y-L-O? 3585 03:56:31.380 --> 03:56:37.300 I believe I read it in some of the correspondence that I saw for the first time a 3586 03:56:37.300 --> 03:56:38.300 few days ago. 3587 03:56:38.140 --> 03:56:39.140 All right, sir. 3588 03:57:01.080 --> 03:57:04.260 Doctor, I'm going to hand you a letter from Dr. 3589 03:57:04.380 --> 03:57:08.620 Borewall to Mr. Bowes of the Owens, Illinois Glass Company. 3590 03:57:08.740 --> 03:57:11.580 The date is November 16, 1948, gentlemen. 3591 03:57:13.260 --> 03:57:14.940 November 16, 1948. 3592 03:57:18.530 --> 03:57:23.190 And if you would, read the first page, and the second page is about who's going to 3593 03:57:23.190 --> 03:57:24.190 pay for the study. 3594 03:57:23.870 --> 03:57:26.930 I don't think that's relevant, unless you want to read it. 3595 03:57:27.070 --> 03:57:28.070 No, no. 3596 03:57:27.670 --> 03:57:29.250 The third page is a summary. 3597 03:57:29.570 --> 03:57:30.570 All right. 3598 03:57:33.810 --> 03:57:34.810 Page three. 3599 03:57:34.710 --> 03:57:35.710 Yes, sir. 3600 03:57:36.930 --> 03:57:42.090 Now, on the first page, he talks about three copies of a report on the results of animal 3601 03:57:42.090 --> 03:57:43.570 experiments with calo dust. 3602 03:57:43.690 --> 03:57:44.690 Do you see that? 3603 03:57:44.490 --> 03:57:47.110 Are you speaking of the letter, or are you referring to the letter now? 3604 03:57:47.170 --> 03:57:48.170 Yes, sir. 3605 03:57:47.510 --> 03:57:48.510 I'm sorry. 3606 03:57:47.850 --> 03:57:48.850 The letter. 3607 03:57:48.810 --> 03:57:50.430 Enclosed, you will find three copies. 3608 03:57:50.470 --> 03:57:51.470 Yes, sir. 3609 03:57:50.930 --> 03:57:51.930 All right. 3610 03:57:51.330 --> 03:57:57.030 now he says that in that sentence however the experimental 3611 03:57:57.030 --> 03:57:58.870 study of the effects of inhaled 3612 03:57:58.870 --> 03:58:04.650 calo dust on normal uninfected animals is now finished and conclusions expressed on that 3613 03:58:04.650 --> 03:58:09.650 subject are final rather than tentative you see that i do now you see down that the 3614 03:58:09.650 --> 03:58:10.730 third paragraph 3615 03:58:10.730 --> 03:58:16.390 during the 30 to 36 months period however definite indication of tissue 3616 03:58:16.390 --> 03:58:17.390 reaction appeared 3617 03:58:17.290 --> 03:58:20.090 in the lungs of animals inhaling calo dust. 3618 03:58:20.290 --> 03:58:21.290 Do you see that? 3619 03:58:20.930 --> 03:58:21.930 I do. 3620 03:58:21.710 --> 03:58:23.490 And therefore, I regret to say, 3621 03:58:23.650 --> 03:58:26.630 our tentative conclusion quoted above must be altered. 3622 03:58:26.850 --> 03:58:29.230 In all animals, you see that? 3623 03:58:29.310 --> 03:58:30.310 All animals, 3624 03:58:30.790 --> 03:58:34.430 sacrificed after more than 30 months of exposure to calo dust, 3625 03:58:35.330 --> 03:58:38.290 unmistakable evidence of asbestosis has developed, 3626 03:58:38.570 --> 03:58:43.630 showing that calo on inhalation is capable of producing asbestosis 3627 03:58:43.630 --> 03:58:49.230 and must be regarded as a potentially hazardous material do you say that I do 3628 03:58:49.230 --> 03:58:51.810 all right now would you look over on page three 3629 03:58:51.810 --> 03:58:52.810 please 3630 03:59:00.470 --> 03:59:06.370 Martin has stipulated with counsel from Georgia among other states where a more 3631 03:59:06.370 --> 03:59:10.550 formal objection as to form might be required by the rules of practice that 3632 03:59:10.550 --> 03:59:14.590 an objection has to form is sufficient for purposes of this deposition and that 3633 03:59:14.590 --> 03:59:18.950 the substantive basis asking for them need not be articulated at the time the 3634 03:59:18.950 --> 03:59:19.950 objection is made 3635 03:59:20.490 --> 03:59:24.890 also miss ronnie this time i assume the ongoing objection to the use of these 3636 03:59:24.890 --> 03:59:25.990 documents is still 3637 03:59:25.990 --> 03:59:31.780 in effect sure now do you see page three doctor and 3638 03:59:31.780 --> 03:59:35.080 you see where dr vorwald he was the director 3639 03:59:35.080 --> 03:59:40.300 of the san act laboratory what a titan a titan in the field 3640 03:59:40.300 --> 03:59:44.280 agree with that yes thanks i realize 3641 03:59:44.280 --> 03:59:48.260 that our findings regarding KALO are less favorable than anticipated. 3642 03:59:48.720 --> 03:59:52.560 However, since KALO is capable of producing asbestosis, 3643 03:59:52.780 --> 03:59:58.240 it is better to discover it now in animals rather than later in industrial workers. 3644 03:59:58.540 --> 04:00:02.140 Thus, the company being forewarned will be in a better position 3645 04:00:02.140 --> 04:00:06.840 to institute adequate control measures for safeguarding exposed employees 3646 04:00:06.840 --> 04:00:08.700 and protecting its own interests. 3647 04:00:08.800 --> 04:00:09.800 Do you see that? 3648 04:00:09.500 --> 04:00:10.500 Yes, sir. 3649 04:00:10.580 --> 04:00:12.440 Now, Dr. Deyou? 3650 04:00:14.060 --> 04:00:18.440 Have you, prior to this morning, had an opportunity to review the attached document 3651 04:00:18.440 --> 04:00:22.020 which is the interim report on the biological activity of calo dust? 3652 04:00:22.560 --> 04:00:23.940 I have not done that. 3653 04:00:25.220 --> 04:00:26.220 Dr. 3654 04:00:26.040 --> 04:00:30.400 Do you agree with Dr. 3655 04:00:30.580 --> 04:00:36.100 Vorwald that this product, calo, do you know the product calo? 3656 04:00:37.120 --> 04:00:39.320 Do you know that it's a thermal insulation product? 3657 04:00:39.700 --> 04:00:41.360 It's an asbestos containing product. 3658 04:00:41.360 --> 04:00:46.100 It's a thermal insulation product that contained asbestos used by insulation work. 3659 04:00:46.200 --> 04:00:47.200 Yes, sir. 3660 04:00:46.860 --> 04:00:48.760 Do you understand that, sir? 3661 04:00:49.540 --> 04:00:50.540 Yes, sir. 3662 04:00:50.280 --> 04:00:51.280 All right. 3663 04:00:51.720 --> 04:00:57.200 Do you agree with Dr. Vorwoff that since Kalo is capable of producing asbestosis, 3664 04:00:57.400 --> 04:00:58.400 it is 3665 04:00:57.640 --> 04:01:00.980 better to discover it now in animals rather than later in industrial work? 3666 04:01:01.180 --> 04:01:02.180 I do. 3667 04:01:01.900 --> 04:01:02.900 You do agree. 3668 04:01:02.700 --> 04:01:03.700 All right. 3669 04:01:03.320 --> 04:01:08.500 Doctor, as a result of receiving this report, do you have an opinion as to whether 3670 04:01:08.500 --> 04:01:09.500 or not 3671 04:01:08.920 --> 04:01:13.120 the Owens Illinois glass company the manufacturer of the product Kayla should have 3672 04:01:13.120 --> 04:01:16.580 advised industrial users of the product Kayla of 3673 04:01:16.580 --> 04:01:17.680 the results of this experiment 3674 04:01:18.760 --> 04:01:22.720 I would have to answer as I've answered earlier. They certainly should have pursued 3675 04:01:22.720 --> 04:01:23.800 it not having been there 3676 04:01:23.800 --> 04:01:27.520 I don't know exactly what they should have done. They should have gone out and done 3677 04:01:27.520 --> 04:01:28.520 some dust 3678 04:01:27.980 --> 04:01:33.040 Studies where Kayla was being used. They should have pursued the implications of 3679 04:01:33.040 --> 04:01:34.040 the study. Yes 3680 04:01:33.820 --> 04:01:34.820 now 3681 04:01:48.600 --> 04:01:49.940 This gentleman is 3682 04:01:51.720 --> 04:01:56.720 A letter, March 12th, 1943, from Leroy Gardner 3683 04:01:56.720 --> 04:02:01.520 to Mr. Bones of Owens, Illinois, 48, 3684 04:02:01.940 --> 04:02:03.540 March 3685 04:02:10.840 --> 04:02:12.960 12th, 1943. 3686 04:02:14.120 --> 04:02:18.940 Doctor, do you see in the third sentence there, this is a letter from Dr. 3687 04:02:19.140 --> 04:02:20.140 Gardner. 3688 04:02:19.520 --> 04:02:22.780 He was director of the Sananac Laboratory in 1943, wasn't he? 3689 04:02:22.900 --> 04:02:23.900 Right. 3690 04:02:23.420 --> 04:02:25.080 You see the third sentence there? 3691 04:02:25.080 --> 04:02:28.920 the fact that you are starting with a mixture of quartz and asbestos would 3692 04:02:28.920 --> 04:02:32.260 certainly suggest that you have all the ingredients for a first-class hazard. 3693 04:02:32.940 --> 04:02:33.940 You 3694 04:02:33.460 --> 04:02:39.140 see that? Yes, sir. Do you agree with Dr. Gardner that the mixture of quartz and 3695 04:02:39.140 --> 04:02:42.800 asbestos certainly would constitute a potential hazard? 3696 04:02:43.420 --> 04:02:44.600 Potential hazard, yes. 3697 04:02:44.780 --> 04:02:47.820 All right. Now, Doctor, the 3698 04:03:08.430 --> 04:03:10.930 next letter I'm going to give you is one dated February 3699 04:03:10.930 --> 04:03:14.990 February the 12th, 1943, from Owens, Illinois, to Dr. 3700 04:03:15.130 --> 04:03:16.130 Gardner. 3701 04:03:16.590 --> 04:03:22.820 Now this is a letter dated February the 12th, 1943, 3702 04:03:23.800 --> 04:03:27.080 asking Dr. Gardner to conduct the KALO experiments. 3703 04:03:28.220 --> 04:03:33.440 And in there do you see where he talks about the product KALO, 3704 04:03:33.440 --> 04:03:35.200 the fourth line says, 3705 04:03:35.520 --> 04:03:41.020 It, KALO, is intended to use this material for certain interior structural uses, 3706 04:03:41.020 --> 04:03:46.860 also as an industrial thermal insulating material for pipe etc do you see that yes 3707 04:03:46.860 --> 04:03:47.860 sir and that's 3708 04:03:47.540 --> 04:03:51.840 the product that insulation workers would use it yes sir and you see in fact down 3709 04:03:51.840 --> 04:03:52.840 there at the 3710 04:03:52.240 --> 04:03:57.720 bottom the following points merit consideration number three it 3711 04:03:57.720 --> 04:03:59.420 should be considered from the 3712 04:03:59.420 --> 04:04:04.360 standpoint of employees working in the plant where the material is made or where it 3713 04:04:04.360 --> 04:04:05.360 may be 3714 04:04:04.760 --> 04:04:09.960 sawed to desired dimensions and also considered from the standpoint of applicators 3715 04:04:09.960 --> 04:04:11.120 or erectors 3716 04:04:11.120 --> 04:04:15.980 at the point of use do you see that i do and there's an applicator or erector at 3717 04:04:15.980 --> 04:04:16.980 the point 3718 04:04:16.240 --> 04:04:21.840 of use and insulation work yes sir now doctor do you know 3719 04:04:21.840 --> 04:04:26.780 whether or not have you seen anything 3720 04:04:26.780 --> 04:04:33.060 in the records of the Johns-Manville Corporation to indicate whether Johns 3721 04:04:33.060 --> 04:04:38.840 Manville retained the Saranac laboratory or any other 3722 04:04:38.840 --> 04:04:41.260 laboratory to run tests on 3723 04:04:41.260 --> 04:04:45.700 its product Thermobestos. I have not seen any. 3724 04:04:45.960 --> 04:04:48.340 And this Thermobestos before 3725 04:04:48.340 --> 04:04:53.520 asbestos was removed was it not a calcium silicate product similar to 3726 04:04:53.520 --> 04:04:59.460 kayla it was a hydrous calcium silicate containing asbestos 3727 04:04:59.460 --> 04:05:01.160 fibers yes sir now 3728 04:05:01.160 --> 04:05:07.120 with respect to precautions that were available as dr borewall suggested 3729 04:05:07.120 --> 04:05:08.940 back in 1948 were 3730 04:05:08.940 --> 04:05:14.600 respirators available yes sir were warning labels in use back in 1948 for some products 3731 04:05:14.600 --> 04:05:20.520 some products yes were exhausts available for saws where calo might have 3732 04:05:20.520 --> 04:05:21.520 been cut 3733 04:05:23.280 --> 04:05:25.200 Exhausting was available, yes, sir. 3734 04:05:26.300 --> 04:05:32.300 Doctor, do you have any more instruction manuals on how to use products safely and 3735 04:05:32.300 --> 04:05:33.300 used back then? 3736 04:05:33.340 --> 04:05:34.520 Don't have resistance, yes, sir. 3737 04:05:34.620 --> 04:05:35.620 Okay. 3738 04:05:36.620 --> 04:05:38.760 Now, let me OCF this. 3739 04:05:44.890 --> 04:05:46.410 Ron, how much more time? 3740 04:05:46.690 --> 04:05:47.690 Fifteen minutes. 3741 04:05:52.050 --> 04:05:55.810 Try and telescope it if you can. 3742 04:05:55.910 --> 04:05:56.910 Yes, sir. 3743 04:05:57.610 --> 04:05:58.770 Appreciate your kindness. 3744 04:06:08.540 --> 04:06:12.920 Now Doctor, I've given you a, what 3745 04:06:15.990 --> 04:06:17.290 is the date of that letter, sir? 3746 04:06:18.070 --> 04:06:19.590 6-12-56. 3747 04:06:22.040 --> 04:06:23.420 6-12-56. 3748 04:06:23.700 --> 04:06:26.220 And who is it from and to who is it addressed? 3749 04:06:27.060 --> 04:06:33.040 No, it's a non-letterhead of W.J.H., 3750 04:06:33.040 --> 04:06:36.400 whoever that is, and it was addressed to W.J. 3751 04:06:36.480 --> 04:06:40.720 Stewart, dash 6, but it is on a plain white sheet of paper. 3752 04:06:40.900 --> 04:06:42.500 It does not have a letterhead. 3753 04:06:42.740 --> 04:06:46.300 Okay. It bears the date, June the 12th, 1956. 3754 04:06:47.400 --> 04:06:48.400 Yes, sir. 3755 04:06:48.260 --> 04:06:49.640 Did you know Dr. Shipp? 3756 04:06:50.460 --> 04:06:51.460 No, sir. 3757 04:06:55.380 --> 04:07:01.180 and the memo reads Mr. Ira Brock called this morning and asked if we ever 3758 04:07:01.180 --> 04:07:02.340 prepared a brochure 3759 04:07:02.340 --> 04:07:07.520 on the health aspects of calo dust similar to the one Ed Ames prepared for 3760 04:07:07.520 --> 04:07:08.620 fiberglass some years 3761 04:07:08.620 --> 04:07:14.980 ago do you see that yes sir and then it says we told him no yes sir but the animal experiments 3762 04:07:14.980 --> 04:07:19.600 at Saranac were written in a highly technical manner and this is the only published material 3763 04:07:19.600 --> 04:07:23.160 that has appeared do you see that yes sir now do you know what they're talking 3764 04:07:23.160 --> 04:07:24.160 about there with 3765 04:07:24.000 --> 04:07:28.160 respect to the uh highly technical published material on calo 3766 04:07:32.440 --> 04:07:36.540 it's wjh who i assume to be wj hazard 3767 04:07:38.900 --> 04:07:44.800 this certainly is an assumption on my part do you um do you see that 3768 04:07:44.800 --> 04:07:46.140 language sir yeah 3769 04:07:46.780 --> 04:07:51.400 i'm not close to that published material that might be recording okay i'm gonna 3770 04:07:51.400 --> 04:07:52.440 hand you k27 3771 04:07:55.570 --> 04:08:00.010 and save a little time ask you to look over here page 3772 04:08:03.280 --> 04:08:04.560 343 sure 3773 04:08:06.000 --> 04:08:09.400 and you see that there's an article by dr Schepers 3774 04:08:10.680 --> 04:08:13.760 yes sir if you would please turn over to page 343. 3775 04:08:17.380 --> 04:08:23.160 okay now what is the title of that article effect of inhaled commercial hydrous calcium 3776 04:08:23.160 --> 04:08:25.340 calcium silicate dust on animal tissues. 3777 04:08:26.000 --> 04:08:29.240 Okay, and is calcium silicate what calo is? 3778 04:08:29.480 --> 04:08:30.480 Yes, sir. 3779 04:08:30.700 --> 04:08:32.160 And thermodust. 3780 04:08:32.800 --> 04:08:33.800 Yes, sir. 3781 04:08:33.420 --> 04:08:35.220 All right, would you look over at the conclusion? 3782 04:08:39.930 --> 04:08:40.930 Yes, sir. 3783 04:08:40.690 --> 04:08:46.390 Do you see where Dr. Schepers, in his conclusions, 3784 04:08:47.430 --> 04:08:51.470 find that the dust caused marked chronic bronchiolitis 3785 04:08:51.470 --> 04:08:56.750 with terminal peribronchial, peribronchiolar focal fibrosis, 3786 04:08:57.410 --> 04:09:02.670 bronchiectasia, and epithelialization of anoractic alveoli. 3787 04:09:03.710 --> 04:09:05.350 The final lesions closely 3788 04:09:05.350 --> 04:09:10.290 resemble those found in experimental asbestosis and included asbestos bodies. 3789 04:09:10.390 --> 04:09:11.390 Do you see that? 3790 04:09:11.010 --> 04:09:15.730 Yes, sir. All right. And then do you see that he says that it seems likely that the crisis 3791 04:09:15.730 --> 04:09:20.430 child, that's asbestos. Yes, sir. Component of the commercial product rather than the 3792 04:09:20.430 --> 04:09:24.870 hydrous calcium silicate was the cause of the deleterious effects on the tissues of 3793 04:09:24.870 --> 04:09:29.310 the experimental animals you see that otherwise he's saying that it's the asbestos 3794 04:09:29.310 --> 04:09:30.310 that made the 3795 04:09:29.830 --> 04:09:35.630 animals sick that's what he believed yesterday now i hand you a copy sir 3796 04:09:35.630 --> 04:09:39.210 of the k51 and ask you if 3797 04:09:39.210 --> 04:09:44.430 you've ever seen that before today oh yeah this is this is just the thing we just 3798 04:09:44.430 --> 04:09:45.710 read right that's 3799 04:09:45.710 --> 04:09:49.270 that was what was published in the literature yes sir and it was published in the 3800 04:09:49.270 --> 04:09:50.450 ama archives of 3801 04:09:50.450 --> 04:09:56.370 industrial health back in 1955 shortly thereafter all right and the ama archives of industrial 3802 04:09:56.370 --> 04:10:01.970 health is that a reliable and authoritative journal i find it to be serious and you see 3803 04:10:01.970 --> 04:10:06.830 that dr Schepers repeats his conclusions about that calcium silicate causing 3804 04:10:06.830 --> 04:10:08.590 asbestos same 3805 04:10:10.750 --> 04:10:16.250 conclusions contained between the hard covers thank you now 3806 04:10:16.250 --> 04:10:19.560 do you know when um 3807 04:10:21.760 --> 04:10:27.080 fiberglass insulation products came on the market doctor the market for 3808 04:10:27.080 --> 04:10:30.900 30 40 years a long period of 3809 04:10:30.900 --> 04:10:36.720 time right and the fact that's 3810 04:10:36.720 --> 04:10:41.240 probably the major insulation product that's used today in I think so 3811 04:10:41.240 --> 04:10:42.240 So, yes, sir. 3812 04:10:42.720 --> 04:10:43.720 Okay. 3813 04:10:43.840 --> 04:10:44.840 Let me see it. 3814 04:10:48.440 --> 04:10:49.980 Excuse me one second, doctor. 3815 04:10:49.980 --> 04:10:54.440 I've got one other document I want to ask you about in reference to this Kalo business, 3816 04:10:55.120 --> 04:10:56.860 and we'll move on and conclude. 3817 04:11:15.610 --> 04:11:17.190 I can't find it. 3818 04:11:17.210 --> 04:11:18.210 I'll be there. 3819 04:11:22.480 --> 04:11:27.720 Now, doctor, let's talk a second about warning labels and we'll be through. 3820 04:11:35.200 --> 04:11:40.820 Do you agree that carcinogens, cancer 3821 04:11:40.820 --> 04:11:41.820 -causing things, 3822 04:11:42.560 --> 04:11:47.660 that people who are exposed to cancer- causing things ought to be told about. 3823 04:11:48.760 --> 04:11:50.860 It depends on the biological availability. 3824 04:11:51.180 --> 04:11:56.600 You will recall early I made the point that the agent is part of the potential hazard. 3825 04:11:56.760 --> 04:11:59.840 The availability is not. 3826 04:12:00.080 --> 04:12:04.460 Therefore, there are certain instances in the world that most everybody, 3827 04:12:05.260 --> 04:12:08.080 certainly in the room and maybe in the world, is familiar with is 3828 04:12:08.080 --> 04:12:11.380 that people are exposed to cancer-causing agents. 3829 04:12:12.140 --> 04:12:15.000 coming out of the exhaust of an internal combustion engine 3830 04:12:15.000 --> 04:12:16.720 in her automobile, and there is no warning, 3831 04:12:16.820 --> 04:12:22.020 and I'm not aware of any feeling on the part of anybody 3832 04:12:22.020 --> 04:12:24.080 that the automobile should be labeled. 3833 04:12:24.600 --> 04:12:28.380 But, Doctor, I believe you also said that studies have revealed 3834 04:12:28.380 --> 04:12:33.500 that people just exposed to automobile dust exhaust or fumes exhaust, 3835 04:12:33.660 --> 04:12:34.660 there's no evidence. 3836 04:12:34.760 --> 04:12:36.220 Because the dose is low enough. 3837 04:12:36.300 --> 04:12:37.300 That's right. 3838 04:12:36.760 --> 04:12:38.060 But the carcinogen is still there. 3839 04:12:38.220 --> 04:12:39.220 Yes, sir. 3840 04:12:38.740 --> 04:12:39.740 Right. 3841 04:12:38.980 --> 04:12:44.560 But in 1955, you concluded that asbestos caused cancer, and that was as a result of 3842 04:12:44.560 --> 04:12:48.180 a study of human beings who died of cancer from working with asbestos. 3843 04:12:48.220 --> 04:12:53.660 But still in compliance with the same dose response that was responsible for the 3844 04:12:53.660 --> 04:12:56.640 conclusions in the automobile exhaust analogy. 3845 04:12:56.960 --> 04:13:02.340 In 1955, you concluded that asbestos caused cancer in human beings. 3846 04:13:02.560 --> 04:13:03.560 Yes, sir. 3847 04:13:04.080 --> 04:13:08.380 and don't you believe doctor and haven't you believed throughout your career that 3848 04:13:08.380 --> 04:13:09.380 when it's 3849 04:13:08.700 --> 04:13:13.200 demonstrated that a substance causes cancer in human beings that people who are 3850 04:13:13.200 --> 04:13:14.440 exposed to that 3851 04:13:14.440 --> 04:13:18.060 substance ought to be told under circumstances where it might become biologically 3852 04:13:18.060 --> 04:13:19.240 active at an 3853 04:13:19.240 --> 04:13:24.480 adequate dose yes now there's no question whatsoever 3854 04:13:24.480 --> 04:13:28.020 in your mind today that asbestos 3855 04:13:28.020 --> 04:13:33.440 causes cancer not only to people who work with the product but the wives and 3856 04:13:33.440 --> 04:13:35.060 children of the 3857 04:13:35.060 --> 04:13:38.920 workers they're still human beings and still respond in compliance with those 3858 04:13:38.920 --> 04:13:39.920 response yes sir 3859 04:13:40.880 --> 04:13:46.200 to this day doctor john's manuel doesn't have the word cancer only if that's that's 3860 04:13:46.200 --> 04:13:47.200 just warning 3861 04:13:46.520 --> 04:13:50.380 like that no john's man those labels are in full compliance with the requirements 3862 04:13:50.380 --> 04:13:51.380 of the 3863 04:13:50.720 --> 04:13:54.980 occupational safety and health act and haven't you written doctor that warning 3864 04:13:54.980 --> 04:13:56.200 labels ought to 3865 04:13:56.200 --> 04:14:01.980 be placed on substances that cause cancer saying it causes cancer as long as the 3866 04:14:01.980 --> 04:14:02.980 warning is there 3867 04:14:02.600 --> 04:14:07.720 and as long as the government has a a position that it feels represents public policy 3868 04:14:09.500 --> 04:14:15.320 doctor didn't you write in 1977 that special labeling should be used when 3869 04:14:15.320 --> 04:14:16.320 indicated or 3870 04:14:16.040 --> 04:14:20.580 required for example the use of descriptive terms such as lung irritant skin 3871 04:14:20.580 --> 04:14:21.660 irritant or potential 3872 04:14:21.660 --> 04:14:27.200 In other words, producers must concern themselves with end uses and the uses. 3873 04:14:27.380 --> 04:14:28.380 I do. 3874 04:14:28.040 --> 04:14:33.400 It was in the forward to a book called 3875 04:14:33.400 --> 04:14:36.400 Asbestos-Related Diseases, which I marked as K-52. 3876 04:14:36.780 --> 04:14:37.980 Do you remember saying that? 3877 04:14:38.020 --> 04:14:39.020 It wasn't in the forward. 3878 04:14:38.880 --> 04:14:40.000 It was in a chapter in the book. 3879 04:14:40.000 --> 04:14:41.000 I'm sorry. 3880 04:14:40.100 --> 04:14:41.100 In a chapter. 3881 04:14:40.660 --> 04:14:41.660 I was going through it. 3882 04:14:41.400 --> 04:14:42.400 Correct. 3883 04:14:43.260 --> 04:14:44.260 Now, Dr. 3884 04:14:49.640 --> 04:14:51.200 What number was that, sir? 3885 04:14:51.340 --> 04:14:52.420 K-52. 3886 04:14:53.240 --> 04:14:54.240 Okay. 3887 04:14:57.980 --> 04:15:03.920 Doctor, do you agree, this is October 1979, do you agree 3888 04:15:03.920 --> 04:15:08.560 that the fact that insulation 3889 04:15:08.560 --> 04:15:13.300 workers and shipyard workers could get sick from asbestosis has been known for decades? 3890 04:15:15.480 --> 04:15:18.000 Approximately 1964-63, yeah. 3891 04:15:18.100 --> 04:15:19.100 No sir? 3892 04:15:19.260 --> 04:15:21.020 Decades means 20 years, that's it. 3893 04:15:21.080 --> 04:15:22.580 Approximately, yeah. 3894 04:15:22.580 --> 04:15:25.960 Yeah. Decades is not a finite term. 3895 04:15:27.040 --> 04:15:29.100 Doctor, so listen to me carefully, okay? 3896 04:15:29.200 --> 04:15:32.380 Do you agree, sir? 3897 04:15:32.860 --> 04:15:34.480 I know that. I said decades. 3898 04:15:35.820 --> 04:15:38.160 Did you understand I said decades? Yes, sir. 3899 04:15:38.220 --> 04:15:41.520 More than one decade. More than one decade. Haven't you testified? 3900 04:15:41.780 --> 04:15:42.780 I have. 3901 04:15:42.420 --> 04:15:46.580 Haven't you testified, doctor, that knowledge that 3902 04:15:47.480 --> 04:15:50.420 insulation workers could get asbestosis has been known 3903 04:15:50.420 --> 04:15:56.100 for decades? Exactly. And the interpretation of the decades was between one and two 3904 04:15:56.100 --> 04:15:57.100 decades, yes, sir. 3905 04:15:57.320 --> 04:16:03.160 I was referring specifically to the 63 to 64 3906 04:16:03.160 --> 04:16:08.100 data, which was all preamble to that 3907 04:16:08.100 --> 04:16:13.260 testimony, yes, sir. Now, isn't it true, doctor, that you concluded asbestos caused 3908 04:16:13.260 --> 04:16:14.260 cancer in 1955? 3909 04:16:14.260 --> 04:16:15.360 Yes, sir. 3910 04:16:16.280 --> 04:16:17.280 Thank you, sir. 3911 04:16:17.240 --> 04:16:18.240 No further questions. 3912 04:16:19.790 --> 04:16:23.470 Dr. Kotin, it's now about 1225. 3913 04:16:23.730 --> 04:16:29.830 I have some redirected foundation, and I'll ask you, sir, if you feel capable of going 3914 04:16:29.830 --> 04:16:30.830 forward with that. 3915 04:16:30.770 --> 04:16:31.810 I'd really rather not. 3916 04:16:31.890 --> 04:16:35.870 I testified four days instead of the three that was originally 3917 04:16:35.870 --> 04:16:41.510 scheduled and started 3918 04:16:41.510 --> 04:16:43.870 early today in an effort to be accommodated. 3919 04:16:44.070 --> 04:16:45.370 I'd rather not testify. 3920 04:16:45.370 --> 04:16:46.370 Thank you. 3921 04:16:45.610 --> 04:16:48.890 anymore at this point then we'll have earned the deficit uh 3922 04:16:48.890 --> 04:16:52.550 uh i 3923 04:16:52.550 --> 04:16:57.870 got one more question mr wilson 3924 04:16:57.870 --> 04:17:03.090 two more now i forgot dr Kotin 3925 04:17:05.170 --> 04:17:10.690 in 1977 you testified that your salary with john's member was ninety thousand dollars 3926 04:17:11.210 --> 04:17:14.690 has your salary increased or decreased since that time don't ask the question 3927 04:17:15.270 --> 04:17:19.050 Number two, do you understand, Dr. Kotin, that you're under oath 3928 04:17:19.050 --> 04:17:23.250 and that Mr. Wilson has proposed that this deposition be suspended 3929 04:17:23.250 --> 04:17:26.430 and that as a witness under oath in the middle of testifying 3930 04:17:26.430 --> 04:17:29.390 that you're not supposed to discuss your testimony with Mr. Wilson? 3931 04:17:29.870 --> 04:17:31.570 Well, that's a legal question. 3932 04:17:31.970 --> 04:17:34.750 So then I'm not going to agree to adjourning the deposition. 3933 04:17:34.850 --> 04:17:35.970 You have to take what I'm saying. 3934 04:17:36.210 --> 04:17:37.210 You don't have to agree. 3935 04:17:36.950 --> 04:17:37.950 I understand that. 3936 04:17:37.990 --> 04:17:38.990 Deposition is an attorney. 3937 04:17:39.150 --> 04:17:40.150 I understand that. 3938 04:17:44.410 --> 04:17:45.410 Right.