WEBVTT NOTE Machine transcript of the film's sound; not yet checked. 1 00:00:07.850 --> 00:00:10.730 Do you solemnly swear that the testimony about the menace requisition will be 2 00:00:10.730 --> 00:00:12.790 retrieved by all the people that have invested in this case at all times? 3 00:00:13.130 --> 00:00:14.130 I do. 4 00:00:20.870 --> 00:00:24.490 Sheckler, my name is Lively Wilson, and I represent Johns-Manville. 5 00:00:25.130 --> 00:00:27.790 Will you give us your name, please, for the court and the jury? 6 00:00:29.110 --> 00:00:33.050 Clifford L. Sheckler, S-H-E-C-K-L-E-R. 7 00:00:44.150 --> 00:00:45.770 Can you tell us how old you are? 8 00:00:46.230 --> 00:00:49.190 Yes, sir. I'm 60, uh, 64. 9 00:00:49.890 --> 00:00:50.890 All right. 10 00:00:51.730 --> 00:00:53.570 Mr. Sheckler, what is your profession? 11 00:00:54.670 --> 00:00:56.910 I'm an occupational health consultant. 12 00:00:58.370 --> 00:01:01.170 What does an occupational health consultant do? 13 00:01:07.300 --> 00:01:12.600 I'm administering medical research. 14 00:01:12.860 --> 00:01:14.380 Was there an objection, counsel? 15 00:01:14.640 --> 00:01:15.640 Yes, sir. 16 00:01:29.050 --> 00:01:32.590 I'm Judge Arthur K. 17 00:01:32.850 --> 00:01:38.450 Marshall, referee in this matter by order of 18 00:01:38.450 --> 00:01:40.530 Judge Christian Markey, 19 00:01:40.530 --> 00:01:46.390 M-A-R-K-E-Y. It is my duty to perform 20 00:01:46.390 --> 00:01:53.190 whatever function was ordered by Judge Margolis on 21 00:01:53.190 --> 00:01:56.610 pages 5 and 6, I believe, of his order. 22 00:01:58.210 --> 00:02:04.030 Amongst those duties will be that of seeing to it 23 00:02:04.030 --> 00:02:09.830 that the meeting and the examination is not unduly 24 00:02:09.830 --> 00:02:14.690 prolonged, that the witness is not 25 00:02:14.690 --> 00:02:20.750 harassed, and that material which has been gone over once will not be gone over twice. 26 00:02:21.730 --> 00:02:27.330 And whatever other duties are set forth in the order 27 00:02:27.330 --> 00:02:32.030 of Judge Margolis are now off the 28 00:02:32.030 --> 00:02:33.030 record. 29 00:02:32.570 --> 00:02:34.230 Did you wish to make records? 30 00:02:34.570 --> 00:02:35.570 The tape is rolling. 31 00:02:36.470 --> 00:02:39.130 Mr. Sheckler, will you give us your name, please, sir? 32 00:02:39.930 --> 00:02:42.710 My name is Clifford L. Sheckler. 33 00:02:42.750 --> 00:02:44.870 That's H-E-C-K-L-E-R. 34 00:02:45.170 --> 00:02:46.170 And where do you live, sir? 35 00:02:54.150 --> 00:02:55.350 What is your age, sir? 36 00:02:55.610 --> 00:02:56.610 I am 64. 37 00:02:57.150 --> 00:02:58.370 And what is your profession? 38 00:02:58.790 --> 00:03:00.970 I am an occupational health consultant. 39 00:03:01.490 --> 00:03:04.190 How long have you been an occupational health consultant? 40 00:03:04.190 --> 00:03:06.290 Since 1972. 41 00:03:07.010 --> 00:03:10.010 And as an occupational health consultant, what do you do? 42 00:03:10.590 --> 00:03:16.330 I am administering a medical research 43 00:03:16.330 --> 00:03:20.110 program on man-made vitreous fibers 44 00:03:20.110 --> 00:03:24.650 for the Thermal Insulation Manufacturers Association. 45 00:03:25.770 --> 00:03:31.210 I'm also gathering data for an epidemiological 46 00:03:31.210 --> 00:03:36.790 study of people with 47 00:03:36.790 --> 00:03:41.940 potential exposure to 48 00:03:41.940 --> 00:03:42.940 asbestos. 49 00:03:43.240 --> 00:03:44.240 MR. 50 00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:48.360 Mr. Sheckler, can you give us some of the projects that you have worked on in 51 00:03:48.360 --> 00:03:51.140 the past as an occupational health consultant? 52 00:03:52.260 --> 00:03:57.700 Yes, I have, of course, done 53 00:03:57.700 --> 00:04:03.440 work for Johns-Manville Corporation in evaluating 54 00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:08.720 environmental conditions at the Manville plant. 55 00:04:09.950 --> 00:04:15.800 I'm gathering data of employees at the 56 00:04:15.800 --> 00:04:21.620 Manville, New Jersey, plant for an epidemiological study 57 00:04:21.620 --> 00:04:26.500 study that will involve approximately 30,000 to 40,000 asbestos workers, 58 00:04:26.780 --> 00:04:31.580 and I began about 59 00:04:32.780 --> 00:04:38.520 four years ago to administer the medical 60 00:04:38.520 --> 00:04:43.520 research program on man-made vitreous fibers 61 00:04:43.520 --> 00:04:45.120 for the 62 00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:50.360 Thermal Insulation Manufacturers Association, which is a six million dollar 63 00:04:50.360 --> 00:04:52.140 research program 64 00:04:52.680 --> 00:04:58.000 being done at our two national laboratories, Los Alamos and Brookhaven, 65 00:04:58.120 --> 00:05:00.540 plus several of our 66 00:05:00.540 --> 00:05:05.520 universities, University of California, University of 67 00:05:05.520 --> 00:05:08.220 Pittsburgh, Tulane University. 68 00:05:10.620 --> 00:05:16.540 since 1972 have you served as a consultant in this particular area to any labor 69 00:05:16.540 --> 00:05:18.300 unions I have 70 00:05:18.300 --> 00:05:24.220 done some work for the in conjunction with the thermal insulation manufacturers 71 00:05:24.220 --> 00:05:25.600 research program 72 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:31.120 I've done some work with the glass bottle blowers and I have done some work with 73 00:05:31.120 --> 00:05:32.980 the sheet metal 74 00:05:32.980 --> 00:05:36.760 metal workers. I have had contact 75 00:05:36.760 --> 00:05:42.380 occasionally with heat frost and asbestos workers. 76 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:49.460 Mr. Sheckler, prior to 1972, by whom were you employed? 77 00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:52.480 At Johns-Manville Corporation. 78 00:05:52.980 --> 00:05:55.060 And in what capacity? 79 00:05:56.240 --> 00:06:00.560 I was employed with Johns-Manville Corporation. 80 00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:07.900 The latter part of my employment, my title was 81 00:06:07.900 --> 00:06:10.260 Occupational Health Consultant. 82 00:06:10.300 --> 00:06:16.240 And prior to your serving as a consultant, did you 83 00:06:16.240 --> 00:06:18.260 have a regular position with them? 84 00:06:18.540 --> 00:06:19.540 Yes, sir. 85 00:06:19.200 --> 00:06:20.200 What was that? 86 00:06:19.960 --> 00:06:25.650 From 1936 to 87 00:06:25.650 --> 00:06:31.650 1942, I served in their engineering 88 00:06:31.650 --> 00:06:34.270 department at Manville, New Jersey plant. 89 00:06:34.590 --> 00:06:37.110 Mr. Sheckler, I want to get into your work history with JM, 90 00:06:37.190 --> 00:06:42.570 but for the moment, if you would please, what was your title at the time you left JM? 91 00:06:43.350 --> 00:06:47.530 My title at the time I left J-M was occupational health consultant. 92 00:06:47.810 --> 00:06:50.270 All right, sir. Now, when did you go to work for JM? 93 00:06:50.270 --> 00:06:51.750 1936. 94 00:06:52.170 --> 00:06:54.310 And in what capacity at that time? 95 00:06:54.710 --> 00:07:01.650 As a member of the Manville, New Jersey Engineering Department. 96 00:07:02.370 --> 00:07:04.890 All right. And with what responsibility? 97 00:07:05.490 --> 00:07:11.270 I was responsible for doing survey 98 00:07:11.270 --> 00:07:13.290 work on new construction 99 00:07:13.290 --> 00:07:17.950 and also doing liaison between the 100 00:07:17.950 --> 00:07:20.110 Johns-Manville Corporation 101 00:07:20.110 --> 00:07:25.610 and the contractors engaged in the new construction at Manville plant. 102 00:07:26.270 --> 00:07:31.170 Did you work for Johns-Manville continuously from 1936 until your retirement? 103 00:07:31.530 --> 00:07:36.990 Except between 1942 and 104 00:07:36.990 --> 00:07:41.390 1946 when I served in the armed forces. 105 00:07:41.390 --> 00:07:47.090 Would you go back now and just trace your work experience with Johns-Manville, please? 106 00:07:47.270 --> 00:07:52.710 Yes, sir. From 1936 to 1942, I 107 00:07:52.710 --> 00:07:57.690 surveyed where a 108 00:07:59.100 --> 00:08:01.600 liaison between the Johns-Manville Corporation 109 00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:07.540 and the contractors engaged in new construction projects 110 00:08:07.540 --> 00:08:08.740 at that location. 111 00:08:08.740 --> 00:08:14.270 In 1942 to 112 00:08:14.270 --> 00:08:16.950 1946, 113 00:08:18.630 --> 00:08:24.340 I served in the Corps of 114 00:08:24.340 --> 00:08:30.200 Engineers attached to the 20th Bomber Command and General Chennault's Flying Tigers, 115 00:08:30.260 --> 00:08:31.300 the 14th Air Force. 116 00:08:31.300 --> 00:08:35.980 From 1946 to 117 00:08:35.980 --> 00:08:41.900 1952, I returned to Johns 118 00:08:41.900 --> 00:08:46.460 Manville as supervisor of construction at the Manville, New Jersey complex. 119 00:08:46.860 --> 00:08:52.480 From 1952 to 1957, I became the 120 00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:56.320 safety engineer for the Manville complex. 121 00:08:56.320 --> 00:09:01.840 In 1957 to a transition 122 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:07.260 period, late 59 to 1960, I became supervisor 123 00:09:07.260 --> 00:09:12.400 of safety at the 124 00:09:12.400 --> 00:09:14.900 Manville, New Jersey complex. 125 00:09:16.380 --> 00:09:21.960 Late 59, early 60, I became manager of the 126 00:09:21.960 --> 00:09:24.820 industrial health program for the corporation. 127 00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:31.960 Served in that capacity in 1967 when I became director 128 00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:35.600 of occupational health for the corporation 129 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:41.340 to 1972 when I became 130 00:09:41.340 --> 00:09:44.040 an occupational health consultant 131 00:09:44.040 --> 00:09:48.740 to 1977 when I 132 00:09:48.740 --> 00:09:52.660 formally retired from Johns-Manville. 133 00:09:52.660 --> 00:09:58.620 With respect to your employment in the 1952-1957 134 00:09:58.620 --> 00:09:59.760 time period, 135 00:10:00.640 --> 00:10:04.180 what were your responsibilities for Johns- Manville at that time? 136 00:10:04.840 --> 00:10:09.780 My responsibilities were administration of the 137 00:10:09.780 --> 00:10:13.920 accident prevention programs, 138 00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:20.560 initiation of new accident prevention programs, 139 00:10:20.560 --> 00:10:26.440 and some responsibility for 140 00:10:26.440 --> 00:10:29.300 handling workman's compensation cases 141 00:10:29.300 --> 00:10:35.020 assigned to me by my immediate supervisor for 142 00:10:35.020 --> 00:10:37.200 the Manville, New Jersey complex. 143 00:10:37.720 --> 00:10:41.340 Could you describe the Manville, New Jersey complex for us, please? 144 00:10:41.620 --> 00:10:42.620 Yes, sir. 145 00:10:42.950 --> 00:10:46.640 Manville, New Jersey complex includes a manufacturing plant, 146 00:10:46.640 --> 00:10:52.660 plant, a research center, and a data processing center. 147 00:10:53.400 --> 00:10:58.840 It covers a large, 148 00:11:00.880 --> 00:11:04.480 with approximately 149 00:11:05.940 --> 00:11:11.700 15 to 18 buildings that are 150 150 00:11:11.700 --> 00:11:16.880 feet wide by 1,000 feet long each, has approximately 151 00:11:16.880 --> 00:11:19.520 approximately 15 miles of railroad. Years 152 00:11:22.590 --> 00:11:28.490 from 1952 to 1960, 153 00:11:30.130 --> 00:11:32.090 there was employment of 154 00:11:32.090 --> 00:11:36.690 approximately 5,000 to 6,000 people. 155 00:11:37.030 --> 00:11:43.220 Description of the Manville complex as it was, 1952 to 1959, or as it is now? 156 00:11:43.760 --> 00:11:45.820 Would you answer that question, Mr. Sheckler? 157 00:11:45.820 --> 00:11:51.660 That was a description of the Manville complex 158 00:11:51.660 --> 00:11:54.380 from 1952 to 1960. 159 00:11:54.960 --> 00:11:56.720 I'm sorry, I thought I made that clear. 160 00:11:57.080 --> 00:12:02.770 All right. In 1957, when you became supervisor 161 00:12:02.770 --> 00:12:05.090 of safety at the Manville plant, 162 00:12:05.150 --> 00:12:07.550 how did your duties and responsibilities change? 163 00:12:08.490 --> 00:12:12.950 My immediate supervisor retired, and I assumed his position 164 00:12:13.990 --> 00:12:19.970 with the responsibility for the accident prevention programs, 165 00:12:20.210 --> 00:12:22.650 the industrial hygiene engineering programs, 166 00:12:23.070 --> 00:12:26.990 the self-insured workman's compensation programs. 167 00:12:27.430 --> 00:12:31.880 You were describing the Manville complex. 168 00:12:32.120 --> 00:12:37.500 What kind of products were made at the Manville plant? 169 00:12:39.990 --> 00:12:44.130 Numerous products manufactured at the Manville plant. 170 00:12:44.130 --> 00:12:49.990 It was a multi-product plant, and 171 00:12:49.990 --> 00:12:54.670 most all of the products manufactured 172 00:12:54.670 --> 00:12:56.890 within the corporation 173 00:12:58.310 --> 00:13:02.150 were manufactured in Manville, 174 00:13:06.850 --> 00:13:11.850 New Jersey, in addition to being manufactured at other 175 00:13:11.850 --> 00:13:12.850 locations. 176 00:13:12.410 --> 00:13:18.210 Did the company make asbestos-containing insulation 177 00:13:18.210 --> 00:13:19.290 materials there? 178 00:13:19.530 --> 00:13:20.530 Yes, sir, they did. 179 00:13:21.250 --> 00:13:23.810 Did it make asbestos-containing cements? 180 00:13:24.210 --> 00:13:25.830 Yes, sir, they did. 181 00:13:26.070 --> 00:13:29.410 Did the company only make asbestos- containing materials there? 182 00:13:29.990 --> 00:13:36.930 No, sir. There were other operations that did not contain... 183 00:13:36.930 --> 00:13:41.650 There were products manufactured in other operations that did not contain asbestos. 184 00:13:42.370 --> 00:13:47.290 Now, in 1960, when you moved to New York, 185 00:13:48.590 --> 00:13:52.370 can you tell us what your duties and responsibilities were at that time? 186 00:13:53.190 --> 00:13:56.970 My responsibilities when I moved into New York in 1960, 187 00:13:56.970 --> 00:13:59.570 in 1960, administration 188 00:14:01.400 --> 00:14:05.300 of the accident 189 00:14:08.340 --> 00:14:15.740 prevention programs for the corporation, administration 190 00:14:15.740 --> 00:14:21.440 for industrial hygiene engineering programs for the administration, 191 00:14:21.760 --> 00:14:24.560 administration of self-insured 192 00:14:25.080 --> 00:14:28.560 workman's compensation for the corporation. 193 00:14:28.560 --> 00:14:34.360 What do you mean when you refer to the industrial hygiene programs 194 00:14:34.360 --> 00:14:35.360 at the corporation? 195 00:14:35.760 --> 00:14:41.260 Industrial hygiene programs mean the evaluation 196 00:14:41.260 --> 00:14:46.960 of environment by 197 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:50.100 the industrial hygiene engineering laboratories. 198 00:14:54.260 --> 00:15:00.120 Mr. Sheckler, you then became the director of occupational health, 199 00:15:00.180 --> 00:15:01.180 I think. 200 00:15:02.740 --> 00:15:08.000 1967 yes sir and what were your responsibilities at that time they were primarily 201 00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:09.000 the same thing 202 00:15:08.880 --> 00:15:12.200 that that was merely a change in title mr 203 00:15:14.670 --> 00:15:19.490 sheckler uh first as director and or first as 204 00:15:20.290 --> 00:15:26.350 supervisor of industrial hygiene and industrial health and later as director of occupational 205 00:15:26.350 --> 00:15:32.110 was it important for you to become familiar with medical and scientific 206 00:15:32.110 --> 00:15:34.810 literature that related to that field? 207 00:15:35.890 --> 00:15:42.450 Yes, sir. I did become familiar with selected literature. 208 00:15:42.750 --> 00:15:47.960 I did not have the time, of course, to read all literature. 209 00:15:48.940 --> 00:15:53.080 During that period of time, did you become familiar with the medical and scientific 210 00:15:53.080 --> 00:15:56.180 literature relating to asbestos? 211 00:15:56.180 --> 00:16:00.500 and its uses? Some of the literature, yes, sir. 212 00:16:01.540 --> 00:16:05.180 Did you rely on that literature in making decisions 213 00:16:05.180 --> 00:16:08.700 about the conduct of your job? I did, yes, sir. 214 00:16:08.920 --> 00:16:14.460 Mr. Sheckler, when 215 00:16:17.880 --> 00:16:21.200 in your work at J-M did you 216 00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:25.800 first become involved with asbestos and its potential health effect? 217 00:16:26.180 --> 00:16:27.180 I 218 00:16:39.940 --> 00:16:41.220 first became involved 219 00:16:41.220 --> 00:16:46.340 I was involved with asbestos and its potential health effects, I would say, 220 00:16:46.460 --> 00:16:49.160 in 19... 221 00:16:49.160 --> 00:16:50.160 I was 222 00:16:56.420 --> 00:17:02.400 aware of asbestos being used in the location from 223 00:17:02.400 --> 00:17:03.740 the time I was employed. 224 00:17:06.980 --> 00:17:09.680 I really more 225 00:17:19.400 --> 00:17:25.160 knowledgeable about the health effects of asbestos beginning 226 00:17:25.160 --> 00:17:26.580 in 1952. 227 00:17:27.280 --> 00:17:30.420 And what was your role in Johns-Manville at that time? 228 00:17:30.800 --> 00:17:36.660 I then was the safety engineer for the Manville complex. 229 00:17:37.520 --> 00:17:40.760 Mr. Sheckler, you have described the Manville complex. 230 00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:46.520 Can you tell the court and jury, please, something of the nature of the exposure to asbestos 231 00:17:46.520 --> 00:17:50.580 to those employees who were engaged in work there? 232 00:17:50.580 --> 00:17:51.580 MR. 233 00:17:51.040 --> 00:17:52.040 Jackson and Pratt Foundation. 234 00:17:52.660 --> 00:17:53.660 THE PRESIDENT. 235 00:17:55.990 --> 00:17:57.530 You're ruling on it at this time, sir? 236 00:17:57.810 --> 00:17:58.810 MR. 237 00:17:58.710 --> 00:17:59.710 No, sir. 238 00:17:59.510 --> 00:18:00.510 THE PRESIDENT. 239 00:18:01.310 --> 00:18:02.310 MR. 240 00:18:01.750 --> 00:18:02.750 No, sir. 241 00:18:01.970 --> 00:18:02.970 THE PRESIDENT. 242 00:18:02.270 --> 00:18:03.270 All right. 243 00:18:04.500 --> 00:18:06.040 Would you go ahead and answer the question? 244 00:18:09.760 --> 00:18:12.820 Production people at the Manville, New Jersey, location 245 00:18:12.820 --> 00:18:18.820 utilized raw materials 246 00:18:18.820 --> 00:18:22.760 to manufacture 247 00:18:22.760 --> 00:18:24.000 finished products. 248 00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:29.320 And, of course, the materials were processed 249 00:18:29.320 --> 00:18:32.780 through from stage 250 00:18:35.950 --> 00:18:41.360 of the raw materials going 251 00:18:41.360 --> 00:18:47.220 into the various mixes that constituted a finished product to 252 00:18:47.220 --> 00:18:53.500 the final finishing, machining, 253 00:18:53.520 --> 00:18:56.140 and packing of that finished product. 254 00:18:56.140 --> 00:19:01.920 The asbestos-containing materials, 255 00:19:02.100 --> 00:19:07.180 of course, they worked with the asbestos as it was received 256 00:19:07.180 --> 00:19:13.160 from the mills in Canada or elsewhere, and 257 00:19:13.160 --> 00:19:18.830 that material was then 258 00:19:18.830 --> 00:19:21.750 introduced into the 259 00:19:21.750 --> 00:19:27.050 the patching or whatever other type of mixes were being made 260 00:19:27.050 --> 00:19:30.050 and the product was worked 261 00:19:30.050 --> 00:19:31.570 through to its completion. 262 00:19:31.970 --> 00:19:35.690 Can you describe that material, the asbestos material, as it was received? 263 00:19:37.350 --> 00:19:42.430 Asbestos was received 264 00:19:42.430 --> 00:19:48.070 at the Manville, New Jersey location in the early 265 00:19:48.070 --> 00:19:51.310 years in Burlitt 266 00:19:51.310 --> 00:19:55.770 bags which were shipped, 267 00:19:58.920 --> 00:20:01.440 received in box cars. The 268 00:20:04.510 --> 00:20:09.050 asbestos bags were stocked in 269 00:20:09.050 --> 00:20:15.070 warehouses and as they were required to be put into the mixes were taken from 270 00:20:15.070 --> 00:20:20.510 the warehouse into the process. In the later years the 271 00:20:20.510 --> 00:20:23.850 asbestos was packaged in 272 00:20:23.850 --> 00:20:29.310 in what we call pressure packed packages, 273 00:20:29.450 --> 00:20:35.390 which was in a more solid rectangular 274 00:20:35.390 --> 00:20:39.870 cake-like 275 00:20:39.870 --> 00:20:45.590 form in paper bags, and they of course were received in the same 276 00:20:45.590 --> 00:20:47.150 manner by railroad, by 277 00:20:47.150 --> 00:20:52.790 boxcar into the plant and unloaded from there into the warehouse, then 278 00:20:52.790 --> 00:20:53.830 taken from the warehouse 279 00:20:53.830 --> 00:20:58.770 house and put into the process did you observe this in the course of your 280 00:20:58.770 --> 00:20:59.770 employment there i did 281 00:20:59.690 --> 00:21:05.130 yes sir can you describe the asbestos fiber or the raw 282 00:21:05.130 --> 00:21:06.970 asbestos fiber as it was received 283 00:21:07.690 --> 00:21:12.130 well the raw asbestos fiber as it was received was a loose 284 00:21:12.130 --> 00:21:16.310 fibrous material 285 00:21:17.250 --> 00:21:22.820 material that fiber lengths 286 00:21:22.820 --> 00:21:27.260 varied depending on the type of fiber and the process in which 287 00:21:27.260 --> 00:21:31.180 it was going to be used, and primarily 288 00:21:35.050 --> 00:21:39.250 three types of asbestos used in that plant, chrysotile, 289 00:21:40.110 --> 00:21:42.090 amosite, and crocidolite. 290 00:21:46.580 --> 00:21:51.100 Mr. Sheckler, what is the process of willowing the asbestos fiber? 291 00:21:51.100 --> 00:21:56.740 When the fiber was received at the Manville, New Jersey 292 00:21:56.740 --> 00:22:00.260 plant, before the fiber could be 293 00:22:00.260 --> 00:22:06.080 used in the process, it had to be what we refer to 294 00:22:06.080 --> 00:22:09.260 as, or what I refer to as, opened. 295 00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:13.100 And the willowing process opened the fiber. 296 00:22:13.100 --> 00:22:18.500 it separated the fibers one from the other 297 00:22:18.500 --> 00:22:21.200 before it went into the process 298 00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:26.520 again this is called willowing again did you observe this process I did yes sir 299 00:22:26.520 --> 00:22:33.020 now in the in the course of handling the asbestos fiber in making asbestos 300 00:22:33.020 --> 00:22:38.760 containing products was dust created yes sir there was 301 00:22:38.760 --> 00:22:41.840 dust created and what 302 00:22:41.840 --> 00:22:47.840 What was the nature of the exposure, as you observed it, to the employees in that plant? 303 00:22:48.080 --> 00:22:49.080 Same objection. 304 00:22:49.480 --> 00:22:54.560 Well, there was exposure to employees 305 00:22:54.560 --> 00:23:00.820 using the fiber in the processes. 306 00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:08.000 There was exhaust equipment on many of the 307 00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:11.080 machines and equipment that was used. 308 00:23:11.840 --> 00:23:17.900 during the process during the period of time that you were safety engineer what did 309 00:23:17.900 --> 00:23:23.280 the company do or what did you observe being done to control the 310 00:23:23.280 --> 00:23:26.300 exposure of the employees to dust 311 00:23:32.350 --> 00:23:38.550 controlled the dust and attempted to control the dust within the maximum allowable concentration 312 00:23:38.550 --> 00:23:41.970 by several means. 313 00:23:42.190 --> 00:23:47.670 One, either to remove the dust 314 00:23:47.670 --> 00:23:52.350 from the worker via mechanical ventilation 315 00:23:52.350 --> 00:23:57.150 on the machines and dust collection equipment, or two, 316 00:23:57.310 --> 00:24:02.630 by removing the worker from the process 317 00:24:02.630 --> 00:24:05.830 by isolating the worker and putting them into a 318 00:24:05.830 --> 00:24:11.750 separate room with air filters 319 00:24:11.750 --> 00:24:13.950 feeding fresh 320 00:24:13.950 --> 00:24:15.470 air into the room. 321 00:24:15.730 --> 00:24:21.650 In some instances, we fed air-conditioned air into the room. 322 00:24:22.130 --> 00:24:27.890 And the third method we used was to, if neither of those were 323 00:24:27.890 --> 00:24:30.570 to attempt to change the process 324 00:24:30.570 --> 00:24:36.150 in order to diminish the potential dust exposures. 325 00:24:36.330 --> 00:24:42.430 During your time at the Manville plant, did you observe changes in the processes? 326 00:24:43.090 --> 00:24:44.090 Yes, sir. 327 00:24:46.180 --> 00:24:49.970 Mr. Sheckler, can you tell the court and jury, please, what an epidemiological 328 00:24:49.970 --> 00:24:50.970 study is? 329 00:24:51.130 --> 00:24:52.130 Objection. 330 00:24:51.590 --> 00:24:53.190 Yes, sir. 331 00:24:53.190 --> 00:25:00.050 An epidemiological study is a study of a number of people, 332 00:25:00.390 --> 00:25:04.470 a group of people called a cohort of people, 333 00:25:04.730 --> 00:25:10.470 who are all similarly exposed to 334 00:25:10.470 --> 00:25:14.250 a given potential material. 335 00:25:15.530 --> 00:25:20.250 Can you tell the court, please, what the first epidemiological study in this 336 00:25:20.250 --> 00:25:21.250 country was, 337 00:25:21.050 --> 00:25:22.450 of which you are aware? 338 00:25:23.190 --> 00:25:28.290 that undertook to determine whether breathing asbestos dust was a health hazard 339 00:25:28.290 --> 00:25:29.310 same objection 340 00:25:29.310 --> 00:25:34.630 a proper foundation i'm calling for a conclusion the first epidemiological study 341 00:25:35.810 --> 00:25:41.030 in conjunction with asbestos that i am aware of that took place in this country 342 00:25:43.730 --> 00:25:48.230 was the Lanza study, L 343 00:25:48.230 --> 00:25:50.910 -A-N-Z-A, 344 00:25:51.130 --> 00:25:57.270 the Lanza study which was published by the Public Health Service. 345 00:25:58.250 --> 00:26:01.450 Mr. Sheckler, I'm going to show you what we will mark for identification 346 00:26:01.450 --> 00:26:04.050 as the deposition exhibit number one 347 00:26:04.050 --> 00:26:08.270 and ask you if that is a copy of the Lanza study to which you refer. 348 00:26:11.290 --> 00:26:17.270 a copy of the Lanza study to which you refer yes sir and I ask you if 349 00:26:17.270 --> 00:26:18.270 you were familiar with 350 00:26:18.170 --> 00:26:24.150 that study yes sir this is a study effects of inhalation of 351 00:26:24.150 --> 00:26:25.590 asbestos dust on the lungs of 352 00:26:25.590 --> 00:26:30.690 asbestos workers and who made the study AJ ones of William J 353 00:26:30.690 --> 00:26:36.090 McConnell J William fennel and it's 354 00:26:36.090 --> 00:26:42.350 It's a public health report, volume 50, number 1, January 4th, 1935. 355 00:26:42.930 --> 00:26:47.350 Can you tell the court who Dr. 356 00:26:47.550 --> 00:26:48.550 Alonzo was? 357 00:26:48.670 --> 00:26:50.170 Objection to the proper foundation. 358 00:26:51.070 --> 00:26:56.910 Dr. Lanza was an assistant medical director for 359 00:26:56.910 --> 00:27:00.230 the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company. 360 00:27:03.060 --> 00:27:07.220 Mr. Sheckler, what population did Dr. 361 00:27:07.420 --> 00:27:10.200 Lanza study, as he reported on it there? 362 00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:14.500 Dr. Lanza studied the 363 00:27:14.500 --> 00:27:18.800 asbestos textile workers. 364 00:27:20.540 --> 00:27:25.880 Is that study an authoritative study in the field of industrial hygiene and 365 00:27:25.880 --> 00:27:26.880 occupational health? 366 00:27:26.860 --> 00:27:29.100 Objection. A proper foundation calls for a conclusion. 367 00:27:29.460 --> 00:27:30.460 Yes, sir. 368 00:27:30.280 --> 00:27:35.340 uh and is that the kind of study that was relied on by you in the performance of 369 00:27:35.340 --> 00:27:36.420 your duties yes 370 00:27:36.420 --> 00:27:42.220 sir uh can you tell us a little bit about the study and what his conclusions were objection 371 00:27:42.220 --> 00:27:48.060 and proper foundation calls for a conclusion and hearsay Dr. Lanza has studied 372 00:27:48.060 --> 00:27:49.740 text the textile 373 00:27:49.740 --> 00:27:55.480 workers in the asbestos textile industry he in 374 00:27:57.690 --> 00:28:01.230 the course of of his conclusions he 375 00:28:02.490 --> 00:28:08.310 He suggested and recommended a 376 00:28:08.310 --> 00:28:13.770 level of 377 00:28:13.770 --> 00:28:14.950 asbestos dust, 378 00:28:15.210 --> 00:28:20.920 a level of asbestos dust that 379 00:28:20.920 --> 00:28:25.760 would be a safe working level 380 00:28:25.760 --> 00:28:31.540 for asbestos-exposed people working 381 00:28:31.540 --> 00:28:33.920 in the manufacturing process. 382 00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:38.060 Mr. Sheckler, does the article contain his conclusions and recommendations? 383 00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:39.480 It does, yes, sir. 384 00:28:39.400 --> 00:28:40.980 Would you return to that, please? 385 00:28:41.300 --> 00:28:42.300 Yes, sir. 386 00:28:45.520 --> 00:28:49.780 First, I'll ask you to read to the court and the jury, please, the conclusions from 387 00:28:49.780 --> 00:28:50.780 that study. 388 00:28:51.560 --> 00:28:53.840 Objection. A improper foundation calls for hearsay. 389 00:28:56.860 --> 00:29:01.240 Conclusions of this study are shown on page 10. 390 00:29:01.240 --> 00:29:04.960 Inclusions 1. 391 00:29:05.120 --> 00:29:10.640 Prolonged exposure to asbestos dust caused a pulmonary fibrosis of a type different 392 00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:14.940 from silicosis and demonstrable on x-ray films. 393 00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:17.220 New sentence. 394 00:29:17.420 --> 00:29:22.540 Clinically, from this study, it appears to be a type 395 00:29:22.540 --> 00:29:28.120 milder than silicosis, period. 396 00:29:28.120 --> 00:29:33.850 Cases of definite cardiac enlargement were 397 00:29:33.850 --> 00:29:37.170 frequently found to be associated with asbestosis. 398 00:29:41.270 --> 00:29:47.150 A predisposition to tuberculosis due to asbestos 399 00:29:47.150 --> 00:29:49.810 dust was not indicated in this study. 400 00:29:52.010 --> 00:29:57.490 Asbestosis, as observed in this series of cases, had not resulted in marked 401 00:29:57.490 --> 00:29:59.510 disability in any case. 402 00:29:59.510 --> 00:30:05.450 Five, it is not known how much asbestosis may 403 00:30:05.450 --> 00:30:08.130 add to the mortality of pneumonia 404 00:30:08.130 --> 00:30:12.530 and acute non-tuberculosis pulmonary infections. 405 00:30:13.410 --> 00:30:19.230 Six, it is not practicable as yet to establish standards for the 406 00:30:19.230 --> 00:30:22.190 asbestos dust content of air. 407 00:30:22.190 --> 00:30:27.930 And seven, the amount of dust in the air in the asbestos plants studied 408 00:30:27.930 --> 00:30:30.390 can be substantially reduced. 409 00:30:31.610 --> 00:30:37.590 Mr. Sheckler, are you aware of any epidemiological studies in this 410 00:30:37.590 --> 00:30:39.470 country prior to the Lanza study 411 00:30:39.470 --> 00:30:45.290 which suggested that asbestos textile mill 412 00:30:45.290 --> 00:30:47.490 workers were at risk to asbestosis? 413 00:30:47.710 --> 00:30:48.710 Objection, improper foundation. 414 00:30:51.800 --> 00:30:57.480 I know of no epidemiological 415 00:30:57.480 --> 00:31:00.660 study prior to the Lanza study. 416 00:31:00.900 --> 00:31:01.900 No, sir. 417 00:31:01.980 --> 00:31:05.480 Did Dr. Lanza, in his report, make certain recommendations? 418 00:31:06.060 --> 00:31:07.060 He did. 419 00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:08.420 Will you read those, please, sir? 420 00:31:08.540 --> 00:31:10.480 Same objection by the Foundation, hearsay. 421 00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:15.180 Yes, he said it is recommended, one, that the industry seriously face the problem 422 00:31:15.180 --> 00:31:17.320 of dust control in the asbestos plants. 423 00:31:17.320 --> 00:31:23.100 Two, that new employees be examined physically, including x-ray examination 424 00:31:23.100 --> 00:31:24.100 of the chest, 425 00:31:24.120 --> 00:31:28.560 and rejected for employment if they show tuberculosis or pneumoconiosis. 426 00:31:29.480 --> 00:31:34.800 Three, that employees be examined physically, preferably every year, but at least every 427 00:31:34.800 --> 00:31:39.680 two years, this examination to include an x-ray examination of the chest. 428 00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:45.420 And four, that the industry sponsor studies on known 429 00:31:45.420 --> 00:31:48.420 cases of asbestosis, 430 00:31:48.580 --> 00:31:53.800 as well as studies on effects of asbestosis on the heart and circulation. 431 00:31:54.500 --> 00:31:57.660 Now, Mr. Sheckler, when you were employed by Johns-Manville, 432 00:31:57.760 --> 00:32:03.620 were new employees being examined prior to their employment and chest X-rays given? 433 00:32:03.620 --> 00:32:05.020 An objection to a proper foundation. 434 00:32:05.760 --> 00:32:08.940 Ambiguity. Are we talking now about the Manville facility or J-M Plant? 435 00:32:09.080 --> 00:32:13.280 No. I asked Mr. Sheckler when he was employed 436 00:32:13.280 --> 00:32:19.140 if J-M employees were being examined physically and chest 437 00:32:19.140 --> 00:32:20.140 x-rays given. 438 00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:22.760 Objection is on the grounds of ambiguity and a proper foundation. 439 00:32:23.060 --> 00:32:24.060 I still don't know. 440 00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:28.240 You mean the location of this particular area, Counsel? 441 00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:31.020 All right. Where you were employed. 442 00:32:31.020 --> 00:32:34.800 When I was employed at the Manville, New Jersey plant, 443 00:32:35.060 --> 00:32:37.300 I 444 00:32:37.300 --> 00:32:42.380 was 445 00:32:42.380 --> 00:32:48.320 given a pre-employment physical examination that included 446 00:32:48.320 --> 00:32:49.960 chest x-rays. 447 00:32:49.960 --> 00:32:55.600 And subsequent to your employment there, in connection with the 448 00:32:55.600 --> 00:32:56.920 company's operations generally, 449 00:32:57.960 --> 00:33:03.860 were there employees who were working with asbestos given periodic physical 450 00:33:03.860 --> 00:33:05.700 examinations, including x-rays? 451 00:33:05.900 --> 00:33:07.000 Objection. A proper foundation. 452 00:33:07.300 --> 00:33:08.300 Yes, sir. 453 00:33:12.210 --> 00:33:13.210 If you know. 454 00:33:13.750 --> 00:33:15.450 Yes, sir. I do know. 455 00:33:15.570 --> 00:33:16.570 And what? 456 00:33:16.170 --> 00:33:21.110 Chest x-rays and physical examinations with chest x-rays 457 00:33:21.110 --> 00:33:26.790 were provided periodically for employees on 458 00:33:26.790 --> 00:33:29.250 a two-year basis 459 00:33:29.250 --> 00:33:35.450 except for selected employees, which were examined annually. 460 00:33:36.270 --> 00:33:41.290 And subsequent to 1935, did JM, among others, 461 00:33:41.350 --> 00:33:44.550 sponsor studies with respect to the health effects of asbestos? 462 00:33:44.650 --> 00:33:45.730 Objection, improper foundation. 463 00:33:45.730 --> 00:33:46.730 Yes, sir. 464 00:33:46.650 --> 00:33:47.650 If you know. 465 00:33:47.950 --> 00:33:48.950 Yes, sir. 466 00:33:48.630 --> 00:33:49.630 Same objection. 467 00:33:53.490 --> 00:33:58.370 Now, Mr. Sheckler, are you familiar with a study by Dr. 468 00:33:58.570 --> 00:34:01.690 Dreesen that was also published 469 00:34:01.690 --> 00:34:03.290 by the United States Public Health Service? 470 00:34:04.330 --> 00:34:05.330 Yes, sir. 471 00:34:05.070 --> 00:34:07.850 Dr. Dreesen's Public 472 00:34:13.160 --> 00:34:15.140 Health Service was published in 1938. 473 00:34:15.660 --> 00:34:16.760 How do you spell that, sir? 474 00:34:16.980 --> 00:34:21.740 D-R-E-E-S-E-N, I believe. 475 00:34:26.510 --> 00:34:31.850 Dr. Sheckler, I believe I asked you if you were familiar with the study by Dr. 476 00:34:32.050 --> 00:34:33.050 Dreesen 477 00:34:32.390 --> 00:34:33.390 that appeared in 1938. 478 00:34:34.390 --> 00:34:35.390 Yes, sir. 479 00:34:36.490 --> 00:34:38.190 Where was that study published? 480 00:34:39.690 --> 00:34:45.010 This, again, was a study published by the Public Health Service 481 00:34:45.010 --> 00:34:48.710 in 1938. 482 00:34:48.810 --> 00:34:53.710 Is that an authoritative study in the field of occupational health and industrial hygiene? 483 00:34:53.710 --> 00:34:54.890 Objection, improper foundation. 484 00:34:55.270 --> 00:34:56.470 It is, yes sir. 485 00:34:56.970 --> 00:35:00.830 Can you tell the court and the jury please the population that Dr. 486 00:35:00.870 --> 00:35:03.690 Dreesen studied and the results of his efforts? 487 00:35:03.970 --> 00:35:05.730 Objection, improper foundation, here's saying. 488 00:35:06.130 --> 00:35:11.090 Dr. Dreesen again studied the 489 00:35:11.090 --> 00:35:17.010 asbestos textile workers in the United States 490 00:35:18.430 --> 00:35:24.390 and his findings were 491 00:35:24.390 --> 00:35:30.390 related to that group of workers and what 492 00:35:30.390 --> 00:35:31.390 were his 493 00:35:30.710 --> 00:35:36.710 conclusions and in order to perhaps take less time why don't you 494 00:35:36.710 --> 00:35:37.710 just turn in the 495 00:35:37.550 --> 00:35:42.150 report and read the conclusion that he made as a result of his study objection 496 00:35:42.150 --> 00:35:43.690 Jackson Improper Foundation, your say. 497 00:35:43.970 --> 00:35:50.300 His conclusions are stated on page 117 498 00:35:50.300 --> 00:35:54.720 of the United States Public Health Bulletin No. 499 00:35:54.880 --> 00:35:55.880 241, 500 00:35:55.860 --> 00:35:59.680 dated August 1938, as follows. 501 00:36:00.660 --> 00:36:04.540 Only three cases of asbestosis, 502 00:36:05.170 --> 00:36:09.300 all of them diagnosed as doubtful or borderline cases, 503 00:36:09.640 --> 00:36:12.600 were found to be exposed to dust concentrations 504 00:36:12.600 --> 00:36:18.580 of less than 5 million particles per cubic foot in brackets. 505 00:36:19.380 --> 00:36:23.280 These three individuals had dust exposures 506 00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:27.040 of about 4 million particles per cubic foot in the bracket. 507 00:36:28.300 --> 00:36:31.140 Above 5 million particles per cubic foot, 508 00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:35.700 numerous cases of well-marked asbestosis were found. 509 00:36:36.660 --> 00:36:41.600 It would seem that if the dust concentration in asbestos factories 510 00:36:41.600 --> 00:36:45.880 could be kept below 5 million particles in brackets. 511 00:36:46.420 --> 00:36:52.320 The engineering section of this report has shown how this may be accomplished in 512 00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:53.320 the bracket. 513 00:36:53.160 --> 00:36:58.160 New cases of asbestosis probably would not appear. 514 00:36:59.740 --> 00:37:03.140 Now, Mr. Sheckler, following that report, 515 00:37:03.460 --> 00:37:09.280 are you familiar with whether or not a threshold limit value for asbestos 516 00:37:09.280 --> 00:37:10.280 was established? 517 00:37:10.100 --> 00:37:14.860 Mr. On the basis of this report, 518 00:37:15.140 --> 00:37:20.620 an organization called 519 00:37:20.620 --> 00:37:24.220 the American Conference 520 00:37:24.220 --> 00:37:28.820 of Governmental Industrial Hygienists recommended a 521 00:37:28.820 --> 00:37:34.760 threshold limit value of 5 522 00:37:34.760 --> 00:37:35.760 million particles 523 00:37:35.580 --> 00:37:40.980 per cubic foot of air of asbestos dust on a time weighted average 524 00:37:40.980 --> 00:37:42.480 basis all 525 00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:46.260 right sir first I want to ask you what the American Conference of governmental 526 00:37:46.260 --> 00:37:50.680 industrial hygiene assists objection a proper foundation the American 527 00:37:50.680 --> 00:37:55.440 Conference of governmental industrial hygiene is known as ACGI H 528 00:37:55.440 --> 00:37:58.820 is a group of 529 00:37:58.820 --> 00:38:03.340 of professional hygienists, physicians, 530 00:38:03.780 --> 00:38:09.530 researchers who make 531 00:38:13.400 --> 00:38:17.520 recommendations and review recommendations 532 00:38:18.660 --> 00:38:23.640 for materials utilized 533 00:38:23.640 --> 00:38:25.660 in industry. 534 00:38:25.660 --> 00:38:30.580 This group is primarily a group of governmental and 535 00:38:30.580 --> 00:38:33.720 university people. 536 00:38:34.040 --> 00:38:36.320 There are no industrial people on it. 537 00:38:36.860 --> 00:38:42.860 Now, you said they recommended 5 million particles per cubic foot of air as 538 00:38:42.860 --> 00:38:43.860 a threshold 539 00:38:43.440 --> 00:38:44.440 limit value. 540 00:38:44.380 --> 00:38:46.520 Would you define that for us also, please? 541 00:38:47.020 --> 00:38:48.180 Mr. Jason, you're probably fine with this. 542 00:38:48.180 --> 00:38:51.680 A threshold limit value is 543 00:38:51.680 --> 00:38:55.980 the maximum 544 00:38:55.980 --> 00:38:59.700 level at which, 545 00:38:59.880 --> 00:39:04.040 according to the ACGIH recommendation, 546 00:39:04.040 --> 00:39:09.740 a worker can be exposed to a given material 547 00:39:09.740 --> 00:39:14.820 for a 40-hour week, 548 00:39:15.100 --> 00:39:20.420 52-week-a-year lifetime 549 00:39:20.420 --> 00:39:22.480 working exposure 550 00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:27.860 without adverse health effects. 551 00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:34.660 In this instance of asbestos, the 5 million particles per cubic foot of air 552 00:39:34.660 --> 00:39:39.580 was recommended as a time-weighted average. 553 00:39:40.340 --> 00:39:43.520 Some TLVs have a 554 00:39:43.520 --> 00:39:48.140 fixed maximum, 555 00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:51.660 MAC, maximum allowable concentration. 556 00:39:51.920 --> 00:39:53.820 Others have a time-weighted average, 557 00:39:53.900 --> 00:39:55.500 maximum allowable concentration. 558 00:39:56.640 --> 00:39:58.360 Time-weighted average means 559 00:39:58.360 --> 00:40:03.980 means that the exposure may 560 00:40:03.980 --> 00:40:09.360 exceed the MAC, or the five million particles per cubic foot. 561 00:40:09.700 --> 00:40:13.280 And if you can visualize a line, 562 00:40:13.820 --> 00:40:19.180 the exposure may exceed 563 00:40:19.180 --> 00:40:22.620 that line of five million, providing 564 00:40:22.620 --> 00:40:28.520 it diminishes below that line and averages out to 5 565 00:40:28.520 --> 00:40:29.780 million particles per 566 00:40:29.780 --> 00:40:33.420 cubic foot of air over the period of eight hours. 567 00:40:34.100 --> 00:40:35.760 Mr. Sheckler, do you know 568 00:40:35.760 --> 00:40:41.500 whether or not that standard as established by the ACGIH 569 00:40:41.500 --> 00:40:42.500 was ever 570 00:40:42.360 --> 00:40:46.100 reviewed by them following 1938? Objection, Dr. 571 00:40:46.180 --> 00:40:48.580 Foundation. That standard was 572 00:40:48.580 --> 00:40:52.900 was reviewed on a two-year basis. 573 00:40:53.260 --> 00:40:55.820 The standard for all materials were reviewed 574 00:40:55.820 --> 00:40:59.380 on a two-year basis, including the asbestos standard. 575 00:41:00.380 --> 00:41:03.600 And in 1964, 576 00:41:05.760 --> 00:41:09.660 I recall there was an extensive review 577 00:41:09.660 --> 00:41:11.200 of the asbestos standard. 578 00:41:11.900 --> 00:41:14.420 At that time, the standard remained 579 00:41:15.180 --> 00:41:17.560 five million particles per cubic foot of air. 580 00:41:17.560 --> 00:41:22.960 Are you aware of whether or not there was any other standard during the period 1938 581 00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:29.200 to 1964 that was accepted in the industrial community? 582 00:41:30.620 --> 00:41:34.080 I don't understand by what you mean, other standard, Mr. 583 00:41:34.240 --> 00:41:35.240 Wilson. 584 00:41:34.640 --> 00:41:39.640 Did any other agency other than the ACGIH undertake to establish a standard? 585 00:41:39.800 --> 00:41:40.800 I'm Jackson and Brocker Foundation. 586 00:41:41.100 --> 00:41:42.100 If you know. 587 00:41:41.780 --> 00:41:47.620 I know of no other standard that was established by any agency other 588 00:41:47.620 --> 00:41:51.160 than the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists, 589 00:41:51.240 --> 00:41:57.180 which is the accepted agency for the recommendation of this 590 00:41:57.180 --> 00:41:59.400 type of health standard. 591 00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:05.100 Their recommendations for the asbestos standard 592 00:42:05.100 --> 00:42:07.760 were incorporated 593 00:42:10.770 --> 00:42:16.650 in many of the various state 594 00:42:16.650 --> 00:42:18.290 laws under the labor laws. 595 00:42:18.790 --> 00:42:21.710 Move to strike everything after the first sentence is not responsive. 596 00:42:22.770 --> 00:42:28.490 MR. Mr. Sheckler, do you know whether or not the 597 00:42:28.490 --> 00:42:31.130 5 million particle standard was 598 00:42:31.130 --> 00:42:36.510 ever adopted by any state labor laws or incorporated into any state labor laws? 599 00:42:36.730 --> 00:42:37.730 MR. Yes, sir, I do. 600 00:42:37.970 --> 00:42:40.730 MR. Can you tell us about that, please? 601 00:42:41.270 --> 00:42:46.050 MR. Well, I'll use New Jersey as an example. 602 00:42:46.050 --> 00:42:51.470 For example, New Jersey adopted ACGIH standards for 603 00:42:51.470 --> 00:42:56.910 asbestos under their labor law code rules 604 00:42:56.910 --> 00:42:57.910 and regulations. 605 00:42:58.450 --> 00:42:59.450 MR. 606 00:42:59.410 --> 00:43:05.050 Now, how long did five million particles remain the TLV? 607 00:43:07.010 --> 00:43:08.010 MR. 608 00:43:07.410 --> 00:43:13.250 Five million particles per cubic foot 609 00:43:13.250 --> 00:43:15.730 of air for asbestos dust 610 00:43:15.730 --> 00:43:21.670 remained the recommendation of the ACGIH up 611 00:43:21.670 --> 00:43:27.530 to 1968. In 1968 it was changed 612 00:43:27.530 --> 00:43:31.290 to 12 613 00:43:32.450 --> 00:43:38.050 fibers per cubic centimeter of air or 2 million particles 614 00:43:38.050 --> 00:43:39.490 per cubic foot of air. 615 00:43:39.810 --> 00:43:45.210 And were changes made subsequent to that if you know? 616 00:43:45.430 --> 00:43:47.590 Yes sir they were. And go 617 00:43:47.590 --> 00:43:48.590 Go ahead and tell us about that. 618 00:43:49.150 --> 00:43:52.670 In 1970, 619 00:43:52.670 --> 00:43:58.250 the recommendation was 620 00:43:58.250 --> 00:44:04.510 made to discontinue the particulate count entirely 621 00:44:05.250 --> 00:44:09.790 and convert all counting to fiber count. 622 00:44:10.590 --> 00:44:14.710 Now this constituted, of course, a different method of evaluation. 623 00:44:14.710 --> 00:44:17.650 And in 1972, 624 00:44:17.670 --> 00:44:22.710 the 625 00:44:22.710 --> 00:44:28.250 Federal Occupational Health and Safety Administration 626 00:44:28.250 --> 00:44:33.770 adopted the 12 fibers 627 00:44:33.770 --> 00:44:39.490 per cubic centimeter of air count for asbestos 628 00:44:39.490 --> 00:44:43.330 fiber along with the ACGIH recommendation. 629 00:44:53.920 --> 00:44:59.640 1974, the count was reduced by recommendation 630 00:44:59.640 --> 00:45:04.200 both of the ACGIH and the Federal Occupational 631 00:45:04.200 --> 00:45:09.580 Safety and Health Administration to, I beg your pardon, by recommendation of 632 00:45:09.580 --> 00:45:10.700 ACGIH and 633 00:45:10.700 --> 00:45:16.100 by federal law of the Occupational Health Administration, to five fibers 634 00:45:16.100 --> 00:45:18.040 per cubic centimeter 635 00:45:18.040 --> 00:45:23.860 of air and in 1977 636 00:45:23.860 --> 00:45:29.280 again the asbestos 637 00:45:29.280 --> 00:45:35.600 standard was reduced both by ACGIH 638 00:45:35.600 --> 00:45:41.840 recommendation and Occupational Safety and Health Administration law to two 639 00:45:41.840 --> 00:45:46.800 fibers per cubic centimeter of air and that's where the 640 00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:49.000 standard remains as of 641 00:45:49.000 --> 00:45:54.910 today. Mr. Sheckler I want you to turn your attention if 642 00:45:54.910 --> 00:45:56.090 you would please now 643 00:45:56.090 --> 00:46:02.490 from the manufacturing process that you have described to those people who use 644 00:46:02.490 --> 00:46:09.130 asbestos containing insulation products. During the course of your employment at 645 00:46:09.130 --> 00:46:10.950 at the Manville plant. 646 00:46:12.400 --> 00:46:15.990 Did you have working under your supervision, 647 00:46:16.210 --> 00:46:20.430 or did you ever observe insulation contractors 648 00:46:20.430 --> 00:46:23.410 installing asbestos-containing insulation material? 649 00:46:23.810 --> 00:46:31.040 I observed insulation contractors, workers, 650 00:46:31.380 --> 00:46:37.020 installing insulation materials at the Manville, New Jersey 651 00:46:37.020 --> 00:46:42.500 a plant between 1936 and 1942 and 652 00:46:42.500 --> 00:46:47.120 I had working for me directly 653 00:46:47.120 --> 00:46:51.160 people who installed insulation 654 00:46:51.160 --> 00:46:56.080 materials between 1946 and 1952. 655 00:46:56.620 --> 00:47:02.540 Have there ever been any scientific studies of the environment in 656 00:47:02.540 --> 00:47:04.680 which insulation workers 657 00:47:04.680 --> 00:47:12.160 work yes sir and did you become familiar with those in the course of your work 658 00:47:13.600 --> 00:47:20.010 for J-M yes sir I did mr. 659 00:47:20.090 --> 00:47:25.440 Sheckler from your knowledge and experience is there a 660 00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:31.380 difference in the exposure of insulation workers and factory workers 661 00:47:31.380 --> 00:47:36.800 yes sir 662 00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:41.320 There is a vast difference between the 663 00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:48.180 exposure of insulation workers and production workers in the factory. 664 00:47:48.340 --> 00:47:51.180 Would you tell the court and jury, please, about that? 665 00:47:51.480 --> 00:47:52.480 Same objection. 666 00:47:54.010 --> 00:47:59.510 Production workers working in the factory normally use 667 00:47:59.510 --> 00:48:05.170 materials that contain 100% of asbestos 668 00:48:05.170 --> 00:48:10.610 or use the raw asbestos fiber itself as an introduction 669 00:48:10.610 --> 00:48:12.130 into the product. 670 00:48:12.350 --> 00:48:18.310 And as the product's being manufactured, they of course are also 671 00:48:18.310 --> 00:48:23.180 subject to being in the 672 00:48:23.180 --> 00:48:29.480 areas where the 100% of asbestos materials are being used and introduced into the processes. 673 00:48:29.480 --> 00:48:35.220 And they do this consistently, eight hours a 674 00:48:35.220 --> 00:48:38.780 day and 40 hours a week or whatever, 48 675 00:48:38.780 --> 00:48:44.560 hours a week, whatever their job time is, they're exposed to this material continuously. 676 00:48:45.860 --> 00:48:50.540 This is completely 677 00:48:52.560 --> 00:48:57.420 different from the insulation worker's potential exposure 678 00:48:57.420 --> 00:49:00.140 by virtue of the 679 00:49:00.140 --> 00:49:06.040 fact the insulation worker works on many different types of jobs 680 00:49:06.040 --> 00:49:07.880 today he may be 681 00:49:07.880 --> 00:49:12.920 working in a confined space in a powerhouse 682 00:49:12.920 --> 00:49:15.940 tomorrow he may be working 683 00:49:15.940 --> 00:49:21.320 outside on an extended pipeline or tank which is out out of doors 684 00:49:21.320 --> 00:49:22.740 tomorrow he 685 00:49:22.740 --> 00:49:28.420 He may be working indoors in a wide open 686 00:49:28.420 --> 00:49:29.420 space area. 687 00:49:31.680 --> 00:49:37.660 Also, the insulation worker works with, unlike the 688 00:49:37.660 --> 00:49:38.820 production worker, 689 00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:44.360 works with a number of materials that are non-asbestos containing, 690 00:49:45.800 --> 00:49:51.060 contain no asbestos fiber, such as fibrous glass, rock wool. 691 00:49:51.060 --> 00:49:56.540 he may use cork he may use hair felt 692 00:49:56.540 --> 00:50:02.640 there are a number of insulation materials used in the trade 693 00:50:02.640 --> 00:50:07.620 that do not contain asbestos so he may be working 694 00:50:07.620 --> 00:50:12.280 indoors one day outdoors the next day he may be 695 00:50:12.280 --> 00:50:18.100 working with an asbestos containing material one day and not the next day so 696 00:50:18.100 --> 00:50:22.920 to summarize an 697 00:50:24.520 --> 00:50:27.580 An insulation worker's exposure is intermittent. 698 00:50:28.300 --> 00:50:33.920 A production worker's exposure, whatever it may be, is continuous. 699 00:50:35.220 --> 00:50:37.720 Mr. Sheckler, in the course of your employment, 700 00:50:37.800 --> 00:50:42.020 did you become familiar with any studies that tried to find out 701 00:50:42.020 --> 00:50:45.800 if insulation workers were at risk to asbestos disease? 702 00:50:46.320 --> 00:50:47.320 Objection. 703 00:50:46.920 --> 00:50:48.400 Bapper Foundation calls for a conclusion. 704 00:50:51.760 --> 00:50:52.760 Yes, sir. 705 00:50:52.600 --> 00:50:57.960 there there there are several 706 00:50:57.960 --> 00:51:03.060 there are several studies yes sir let me show you 707 00:51:03.060 --> 00:51:08.160 what we'll mark for identification as deposition exhibit C which 708 00:51:09.700 --> 00:51:10.700 purports to be 709 00:51:10.560 --> 00:51:16.160 a study by doctors Fleischer and drinker and I'll ask you sir if you are familiar 710 00:51:16.160 --> 00:51:17.800 with that study yes 711 00:51:24.550 --> 00:51:29.610 sir can you tell the court and jury please what population 712 00:51:29.610 --> 00:51:32.670 was being studied by doctors Fleischer and Drinker this 713 00:51:32.670 --> 00:51:38.530 study by 714 00:51:38.530 --> 00:51:39.910 Fleischer and 715 00:51:39.910 --> 00:51:43.090 Drinker was a study that was conducted in four 716 00:51:43.090 --> 00:51:48.470 Navy shipyards 717 00:51:48.470 --> 00:51:50.090 two of those 718 00:51:50.090 --> 00:51:56.050 shipyards were Navy shipyards two of them were under 719 00:51:56.050 --> 00:51:59.090 contract to the Navy and 720 00:51:59.090 --> 00:52:03.160 And Fleischer and Drinker studied 721 00:52:04.530 --> 00:52:07.250 insulation workers, 722 00:52:07.930 --> 00:52:12.340 that is, insulation contract-type workers, 723 00:52:12.460 --> 00:52:17.300 who were installing materials on board ship. 724 00:52:17.700 --> 00:52:19.200 When was that study published? 725 00:52:19.700 --> 00:52:21.860 I believe it was 1938. 726 00:52:28.920 --> 00:52:32.740 There's no indication on this photostat copy, 727 00:52:33.000 --> 00:52:36.560 but I'm quite sure this study was published in 1948. 728 00:52:41.160 --> 00:52:45.880 46 or 48 all right are you aware 729 00:52:45.880 --> 00:52:53.380 of any studies of insulation workers prior to that study no sir 730 00:52:57.680 --> 00:53:03.340 I I know of no studies of insulation workers 731 00:53:03.340 --> 00:53:06.860 prior to this Fleischer drinker study mr. 732 00:53:09.860 --> 00:53:11.800 Sheckler if 733 00:53:11.800 --> 00:53:14.100 If you will, describe the study for us 734 00:53:14.100 --> 00:53:18.540 and tell the court and jury what the conclusions of the study were. 735 00:53:18.800 --> 00:53:21.160 And you may read them, if you would. 736 00:53:22.740 --> 00:53:24.020 He may read them. 737 00:53:26.170 --> 00:53:27.350 Objection of the proper foundation. 738 00:53:27.650 --> 00:53:31.770 The conclusions of the... 739 00:53:33.250 --> 00:53:38.590 As I said, this was a study of insulation workers on board ship... 740 00:53:38.590 --> 00:53:44.150 in shipyards either under contract to or directly 741 00:53:44.150 --> 00:53:46.170 under the United States Navy. 742 00:53:47.050 --> 00:53:53.470 And the conclusions of this study, as written on page 16, are as follows. 743 00:53:54.070 --> 00:53:59.050 One, the character of asbestos pipe covering industry 744 00:53:59.050 --> 00:54:01.230 on board naval vessels 745 00:54:01.230 --> 00:54:05.690 is such that conclusions drawn from other asbestos industries, 746 00:54:05.690 --> 00:54:09.770 such as textiles, cannot be applied. 747 00:54:11.000 --> 00:54:16.550 Two, the operations of bandsaw cutting, grinding, 748 00:54:16.770 --> 00:54:17.930 cement mixing, 749 00:54:18.220 --> 00:54:23.650 and installation on board ship should be equipped with exhaust ventilation 750 00:54:23.650 --> 00:54:27.630 to keep the total dust concentration low. 751 00:54:27.630 --> 00:54:32.930 3. The incidence of 752 00:54:32.930 --> 00:54:38.370 asbestosis among pipe coverers in the shipyards studied was low, 753 00:54:38.650 --> 00:54:44.650 0.29 percent, or three cases out 754 00:54:44.650 --> 00:54:46.550 of 1,074. 755 00:54:47.510 --> 00:54:53.390 In view of the nature of shipyard pipe covering work, this low incidence 756 00:54:53.390 --> 00:54:54.970 is not surprising. 757 00:54:56.490 --> 00:55:02.310 For, since each of the three cases of asbestosis had worked at 758 00:55:02.310 --> 00:55:04.690 asbestos pipe covering in shipyards 759 00:55:04.690 --> 00:55:10.590 for more than 20 years, it may be concluded that such pipe covering is not 760 00:55:10.590 --> 00:55:11.590 a dangerous 761 00:55:11.310 --> 00:55:12.310 occupation. 762 00:55:12.650 --> 00:55:15.050 How many workers were included in the study? 763 00:55:15.430 --> 00:55:16.990 Jackson and Pratt Foundation, yes sir. 764 00:55:17.590 --> 00:55:20.270 1,074 workers. 765 00:55:20.270 --> 00:55:26.020 workers. And did doctors Fleischer and Drinker 766 00:55:26.020 --> 00:55:29.660 report on the dust exposure to which those 767 00:55:29.660 --> 00:55:34.120 insulation workers were exposed? They did, yes sir. 768 00:55:36.400 --> 00:55:38.580 Can you just tell us briefly what 769 00:55:38.580 --> 00:55:41.240 the level of dust was? The 770 00:55:41.240 --> 00:55:46.040 environment 771 00:55:47.860 --> 00:55:52.120 was evaluated in 772 00:55:53.690 --> 00:55:55.910 two categories, total dust and 773 00:55:55.910 --> 00:56:00.850 asbestos dust the asbestos dust which 774 00:56:02.290 --> 00:56:07.270 were taken during this study 775 00:56:07.270 --> 00:56:12.250 for asbestos dust were all as 776 00:56:17.400 --> 00:56:23.220 compared to the five million particles per cubic foot of air standard in fact most 777 00:56:23.220 --> 00:56:24.220 of them were 778 00:56:23.840 --> 00:56:29.520 below 50% of that figure except for one count 779 00:56:29.520 --> 00:56:32.700 at the band saw cutting operation 780 00:56:32.700 --> 00:56:37.900 which was slightly above the MAC. 781 00:56:39.080 --> 00:56:45.320 The total dust counts of nuisance type dust 782 00:56:45.320 --> 00:56:50.320 other than asbestos were as compared 783 00:56:52.750 --> 00:56:58.350 to the total dust recommendation by ACG 8 784 00:56:58.350 --> 00:57:04.330 IH of 15 milligrams per cubic meter. Of 15 milligrams 785 00:57:04.330 --> 00:57:05.510 per cubic meter. 786 00:57:07.010 --> 00:57:10.690 Mr. Sheckler, you referred to the MAC. What is that? 787 00:57:10.690 --> 00:57:12.190 Jackson Project Foundation. 788 00:57:12.470 --> 00:57:16.430 MAC is Maximum Allowable Concentration. 789 00:57:16.890 --> 00:57:19.010 Is that the same as the TLV? 790 00:57:19.290 --> 00:57:20.290 Yes, sir. 791 00:57:19.770 --> 00:57:20.770 Okay. 792 00:57:20.050 --> 00:57:21.050 Same thing. 793 00:57:22.150 --> 00:57:23.150 All right. 794 00:57:23.510 --> 00:57:28.190 Mr. Sheckler, tell the court, please, and the jury, 795 00:57:28.270 --> 00:57:33.030 when you first became aware that insulation workers 796 00:57:33.030 --> 00:57:36.850 were at risk to asbestos-related disease. 797 00:57:38.330 --> 00:57:39.350 Them personally? 798 00:57:39.350 --> 00:57:45.340 I became aware of insulation 799 00:57:45.340 --> 00:57:50.220 workers being at risk of an 800 00:57:51.500 --> 00:57:55.540 occupational disease as a group 801 00:57:55.540 --> 00:57:59.020 in 1964. 802 00:57:59.840 --> 00:58:01.260 What was the occasion? 803 00:58:01.580 --> 00:58:08.260 The occasion was the receipt of a preliminary epidemiological study 804 00:58:08.260 --> 00:58:14.020 which was being conducted by the Environmental Sciences Laboratory 805 00:58:14.020 --> 00:58:17.000 of Mount Sinai Hospital in New York City. 806 00:58:17.920 --> 00:58:22.520 And at that time, had you been aware that such a study was in progress? 807 00:58:22.860 --> 00:58:23.860 Yes, sir. 808 00:58:23.560 --> 00:58:26.140 Had there been some discussion of it at Johns-Manville? 809 00:58:27.840 --> 00:58:33.620 There had been both a discussion at Johns- Manville and it was general 810 00:58:33.620 --> 00:58:36.460 knowledge that Dr. Selikoff was doing such a study. 811 00:58:36.460 --> 00:58:41.260 Let me hand you what we'll mark for identification as the deposition exhibit D 812 00:58:41.260 --> 00:58:46.460 and ask you if that is a copy of the study that you received in 1964. 813 00:59:01.440 --> 00:59:07.180 This is a copy of the final version 814 00:59:07.180 --> 00:59:12.920 of the study which was presented 815 00:59:12.920 --> 00:59:14.340 in 1964. 816 00:59:14.340 --> 00:59:19.960 1964. This is not a copy of the preliminary study that I 817 00:59:19.960 --> 00:59:22.020 received in April of 1964. 818 00:59:22.760 --> 00:59:27.400 All right, sir. When was the completed study presented and published? 819 00:59:27.800 --> 00:59:33.600 The completed study was presented in the 820 00:59:33.600 --> 00:59:37.420 fall of 1964 at the New York Academy 821 00:59:37.420 --> 00:59:43.020 Academy of Sciences meeting I believe it was held in December of 64 or 822 00:59:43.020 --> 00:59:45.000 November of 64 I don't recall 823 00:59:46.140 --> 00:59:51.500 I want you to turn your attention please to that study and tell 824 00:59:51.500 --> 00:59:54.600 tell us please whether or not Dr 825 00:59:54.600 --> 00:59:59.920 selikoff reported on the level of dust to which insulation workers were exposed 826 00:59:59.920 --> 01:00:03.190 yes sir he did 827 01:00:03.190 --> 01:00:08.590 report on the level of dust can you find that in the study and read it to us please 828 01:00:08.590 --> 01:00:09.770 just briefly 829 01:00:54.260 --> 01:00:59.360 the asbestos exposure to which insulation workers are subject is limited and 830 01:00:59.360 --> 01:01:01.600 intermittent some of 831 01:01:01.600 --> 01:01:07.540 the materials used contain no asbestos 75 years ago the 832 01:01:07.540 --> 01:01:10.060 magnesia pipe coverings had shredded rope 833 01:01:10.060 --> 01:01:15.940 as a binder with no asbestos later much work was undertaken with 834 01:01:15.940 --> 01:01:19.980 hair felt wool felt cork rock wool 835 01:01:20.900 --> 01:01:26.460 in the past three decades fibrous glass products have come into increasing use 836 01:01:26.460 --> 01:01:27.860 and these have been 837 01:01:27.860 --> 01:01:33.540 supplemented recently with with foamed and 838 01:01:33.540 --> 01:01:36.260 expanded plastics for certain applications 839 01:01:37.480 --> 01:01:43.420 of the asbestos containing products which are widely used by these read 840 01:02:15.000 --> 01:02:16.700 you a paragraph from 841 01:02:16.700 --> 01:02:22.460 page 141 of Selikoff et al asbestosis among insulation 842 01:02:22.460 --> 01:02:27.060 workers the asbestos exposure to 843 01:02:27.060 --> 01:02:32.460 which insulation workers are subject is limited and intermittent some of the 844 01:02:32.460 --> 01:02:33.460 materials used 845 01:02:33.240 --> 01:02:39.160 used contained no asbestos. Seventy-five years ago, the magnesia pipe 846 01:02:39.160 --> 01:02:40.420 coverings had shredded 847 01:02:40.420 --> 01:02:46.220 rope as a binder with no asbestos. Later, much work was undertaken 848 01:02:46.220 --> 01:02:48.140 with hair felt, wool 849 01:02:48.140 --> 01:02:53.780 felt, cork, rock wool. In the past three decades, 850 01:02:54.080 --> 01:02:56.620 fibrous glass products have come into increasing 851 01:02:56.620 --> 01:03:00.220 and these have been supplemented recently with 852 01:03:00.220 --> 01:03:06.960 foamed and expanded plastics for certain applications. 853 01:03:08.880 --> 01:03:13.940 Of the asbestos-containing products which are widely used by these men, 854 01:03:14.360 --> 01:03:19.020 magnesia block insulation was and remains perhaps the most important. 855 01:03:19.620 --> 01:03:24.620 This usually contains approximately 15% asbestos. 856 01:03:24.620 --> 01:03:30.380 asbestos. While asbestos cement has a varying asbestos content 857 01:03:30.380 --> 01:03:32.580 depending upon its manufacturer, 858 01:03:32.980 --> 01:03:39.600 it also generally has 15 to 20 percent or less of asbestos. 859 01:03:40.320 --> 01:03:41.960 Asbestos paper products 860 01:03:42.460 --> 01:03:48.320 such as air cell have a higher asbestos content but are used in much 861 01:03:48.320 --> 01:03:49.860 smaller quantities. 862 01:03:49.860 --> 01:03:55.180 all right sir if you like she's moved to strike everything the entire answer is 863 01:03:55.180 --> 01:03:56.180 being now 864 01:03:55.480 --> 01:03:59.560 responsive and moved to strike everything prior to the asbestos containing products 865 01:03:59.560 --> 01:04:03.180 magnesia black is the most important etc is being now responsible for the question 866 01:04:03.180 --> 01:04:06.360 turn to page 142 if you would mr sheckler 867 01:04:09.240 --> 01:04:15.240 and refer there to his findings with respect to the exposure of 868 01:04:15.240 --> 01:04:16.240 insulation workers 869 01:04:16.080 --> 01:04:22.980 and read that brief paragraph yes sir I'm now reading from page 142 same 870 01:04:23.840 --> 01:04:29.220 document measurements of dust exposures of insulation workers 871 01:04:29.220 --> 01:04:30.580 have been but 872 01:04:30.580 --> 01:04:35.720 infrequently reported and have been hampered by the varied nature of the 873 01:04:35.720 --> 01:04:40.940 work as another asbestos work peak counts are met 874 01:04:40.940 --> 01:04:43.020 which are excessively 875 01:04:43.020 --> 01:04:48.720 high, but generally counts for asbestos fibers have been within 876 01:04:48.720 --> 01:04:49.720 the five million 877 01:04:49.720 --> 01:04:55.320 particles per cubic foot. Maximum permissible concentration 878 01:04:55.320 --> 01:04:57.640 is abbreviated 879 01:04:57.640 --> 01:05:02.520 MPC of the ACGIH, 880 01:05:02.840 --> 01:05:06.860 which is American Conference of Governmental Industrial 881 01:05:06.860 --> 01:05:12.120 hygiene such counts as have been available 882 01:05:12.120 --> 01:05:15.340 made during work engaged in by 883 01:05:15.340 --> 01:05:21.260 the men studied by us have shown a range similar to that of published 884 01:05:21.260 --> 01:05:22.560 counts mr. 885 01:05:24.970 --> 01:05:30.900 Sheckler when you received a copy of first let 886 01:05:30.900 --> 01:05:33.120 me ask you this what did dr. 887 01:05:33.220 --> 01:05:40.280 Selikoff conclude with respect to the risk of insulation workers Jackson 888 01:05:43.910 --> 01:05:48.910 In Dr. Selikoff's 1964 conclusions, 889 01:05:49.470 --> 01:05:54.330 he concluded at that time that there was 890 01:05:54.330 --> 01:06:01.450 extensive occupational 891 01:06:01.450 --> 01:06:07.390 pulmonary disease among the cohort of workers, 892 01:06:07.550 --> 01:06:10.830 and I believe that cohort was approximately 893 01:06:10.830 --> 01:06:16.170 1,500 workers from the Newark and New York locals of the 894 01:06:16.170 --> 01:06:17.850 heat frost and 895 01:06:17.850 --> 01:06:22.990 asbestos workers union that there was considerable disease 896 01:06:22.990 --> 01:06:25.670 among these people 897 01:06:25.670 --> 01:06:31.350 as a result of their employment. Are you aware of any studies prior to Dr. 898 01:06:31.390 --> 01:06:35.790 Selikoff that indicated that insulation workers were at risk? 899 01:06:36.050 --> 01:06:37.050 Jackson and Prepper 900 01:06:37.010 --> 01:06:42.760 Foundation? I know of no, 901 01:06:42.820 --> 01:06:48.000 I know of no studies prior to Dr. 902 01:06:48.180 --> 01:06:49.180 Selikoff's 903 01:06:50.840 --> 01:06:54.440 epidemiological study that so indicated. 904 01:06:55.760 --> 01:06:58.580 When you received the preliminary copy 905 01:06:58.580 --> 01:07:03.680 of Dr. Selikoff's paper, tell us what you did. 906 01:07:04.900 --> 01:07:07.240 Yes, sir. I immediately 907 01:07:07.240 --> 01:07:12.260 calls for a narrative i immediately brought it to the attention of 908 01:07:12.260 --> 01:07:15.940 my immediate supervisor 909 01:07:18.240 --> 01:07:24.040 our immediate supervisor the division manager 910 01:07:24.040 --> 01:07:25.800 of the installation divisions 911 01:07:26.540 --> 01:07:29.520 and the president of our corporation he 912 01:07:32.620 --> 01:07:34.580 did call for a narrative but apparently 913 01:07:34.580 --> 01:07:37.640 I don't gather that the answer is a narrative. 914 01:07:38.480 --> 01:07:41.160 I think that's within the domain of the referee. 915 01:07:41.580 --> 01:07:44.100 The judge will be able to rule that you are the answer. 916 01:07:44.980 --> 01:07:45.980 No problem. 917 01:07:46.100 --> 01:07:51.950 Mr. Sheckler, are you... 918 01:07:55.000 --> 01:07:58.120 Tell the court, please, whether or not a decision was made 919 01:07:58.120 --> 01:08:02.020 to label asbestos-containing insulation products. 920 01:08:02.400 --> 01:08:03.400 Objection of Graber Foundation. 921 01:08:04.640 --> 01:08:07.500 Objection of term insulation is vague and ambiguous. 922 01:08:08.200 --> 01:08:09.200 Is what, sir? 923 01:08:09.140 --> 01:08:14.990 A decision was 924 01:08:14.990 --> 01:08:20.430 made in April of 1964 925 01:08:20.430 --> 01:08:24.270 to place a voluntary health label 926 01:08:24.270 --> 01:08:29.930 on thermal insulation materials containing asbestos. 927 01:08:30.190 --> 01:08:34.570 What part did you play personally in connection with that label? 928 01:08:34.570 --> 01:08:39.690 I was requested to design 929 01:08:39.690 --> 01:08:45.190 a label to be 930 01:08:45.190 --> 01:08:51.500 placed the packages of those materials. 931 01:08:52.060 --> 01:08:57.660 Mr. Sheckler, let me show you what purports to be just a 932 01:08:57.660 --> 01:09:00.180 typed copy of the various labels 933 01:09:00.180 --> 01:09:04.400 that began to appear on thermal insulation products 934 01:09:04.400 --> 01:09:08.040 and ask you if those are the labels which you designed. 935 01:09:34.280 --> 01:09:39.880 I designed the label designated on this printed copy 936 01:09:39.880 --> 01:09:43.280 as 1964 to 1970. 937 01:09:44.040 --> 01:09:45.580 Would you read it for us, please? 938 01:09:45.960 --> 01:09:46.960 Yes, sir. 939 01:09:47.740 --> 01:09:49.040 I don't know what you can ever say. 940 01:09:49.400 --> 01:09:50.800 The label reads, 941 01:09:50.800 --> 01:09:56.020 caution. This product contains asbestos fiber. 942 01:09:56.600 --> 01:10:01.920 New paragraph. Inhalation of asbestos in excessive 943 01:10:01.920 --> 01:10:05.740 quantities over long periods of time may be harmful. 944 01:10:06.020 --> 01:10:09.700 Period. New paragraph. If dust is created 945 01:10:09.700 --> 01:10:14.400 when this product is handled, avoid breathing the dust. 946 01:10:15.300 --> 01:10:18.020 Period. New paragraph. If adequate 947 01:10:18.020 --> 01:10:23.500 Liquid ventilation control is not possible where 948 01:10:23.500 --> 01:10:29.480 respirators approved by the U.S. Bureau of Mines for pneumoconiosis 949 01:10:29.480 --> 01:10:31.820 -producing dusts, period. 950 01:10:32.520 --> 01:10:37.600 Mr. Sheckler, what guidelines were used by you in preparing that label? 951 01:10:39.580 --> 01:10:45.040 Inasmuch as this was a voluntary health label, there were no guidelines 952 01:10:45.040 --> 01:10:47.560 for that specific type of label. 953 01:10:47.560 --> 01:10:53.420 Therefore, I used the guidelines provided by the Manufacturing 954 01:10:53.420 --> 01:10:54.640 Chemists Association. 955 01:10:55.260 --> 01:11:00.880 At that time it was Manual L-1, 956 01:11:01.120 --> 01:11:05.840 which was a recommended 957 01:11:05.840 --> 01:11:13.340 guideline for labeling. 958 01:11:15.600 --> 01:11:17.320 for labeling. 959 01:11:17.720 --> 01:11:18.720 All right, sir. 960 01:11:18.420 --> 01:11:20.260 Capital L-1. 961 01:11:20.940 --> 01:11:23.300 Capital L-1. 962 01:11:23.600 --> 01:11:24.600 Yes, sir. 963 01:11:25.350 --> 01:11:27.420 Now, was the label subsequently changed? 964 01:11:28.440 --> 01:11:29.440 Yes, sir. 965 01:11:29.220 --> 01:11:30.360 The label was changed. 966 01:11:30.840 --> 01:11:31.900 When was it changed? 967 01:11:32.160 --> 01:11:33.160 The label was changed 968 01:11:36.040 --> 01:11:37.200 in 1970. 969 01:11:38.460 --> 01:11:40.880 Would you read 970 01:11:40.880 --> 01:11:42.040 that label for us, please? 971 01:11:42.300 --> 01:11:43.300 Yes, sir. 972 01:11:42.920 --> 01:11:48.300 the 1970 voluntary 973 01:11:48.300 --> 01:11:54.100 label read as follows caution this 974 01:11:54.100 --> 01:11:57.940 product contains asbestos fiber period 975 01:11:57.940 --> 01:12:02.560 avoid breathing the dust period 976 01:12:02.560 --> 01:12:08.760 inhalation of asbestos in excessive quantities over long 977 01:12:08.760 --> 01:12:14.300 periods of time may be harmful period if dust is created 978 01:12:14.300 --> 01:12:15.760 when this product is 979 01:12:15.760 --> 01:12:21.640 handled use proper protection period if proper 980 01:12:21.640 --> 01:12:24.760 dust control cannot be provided 981 01:12:25.980 --> 01:12:31.120 respirators approved by the US Bureau of Mines for protection against 982 01:12:31.120 --> 01:12:35.920 pneumoconiosis producing dust should be worn how 983 01:12:37.490 --> 01:12:39.050 long did that label remain on 984 01:12:39.050 --> 01:12:44.790 the cartons if you know that label 985 01:12:44.790 --> 01:12:47.070 remained on the thermal insulation 986 01:12:47.070 --> 01:12:51.190 packages up until 1972 987 01:12:51.190 --> 01:12:55.870 when the 988 01:12:58.270 --> 01:13:03.610 Occupational Safety and Health Administration Act was passed by the 989 01:13:03.610 --> 01:13:09.030 federal government are you familiar with the procedure followed in 990 01:13:09.030 --> 01:13:13.340 writing that 991 01:13:13.340 --> 01:13:19.120 label by that label the occupational safety and health label yes sir I am I 992 01:13:19.120 --> 01:13:23.740 was active at that time in the Goldberg hearings 993 01:13:23.740 --> 01:13:27.100 first hearings first will you 994 01:13:27.100 --> 01:13:33.180 read the label for us yes sir occupational safety and health 995 01:13:33.180 --> 01:13:38.980 administration required label under federal law reads as 996 01:13:38.980 --> 01:13:41.120 follows caution 997 01:13:42.860 --> 01:13:47.680 contains asbestos fiber avoid creating dust 998 01:13:47.680 --> 01:13:51.200 breathing asbestos dust may cause 999 01:13:51.200 --> 01:13:57.620 serious bodily harm now you refer to the Goldberg hearings what were the Goldberg 1000 01:13:57.620 --> 01:14:02.980 hearings. The Goldberg hearings were 1001 01:14:02.980 --> 01:14:08.900 hearings by the United States 1002 01:14:08.900 --> 01:14:12.580 Department of Labor in conjunction with 1003 01:14:12.580 --> 01:14:16.280 asbestos regulations 1004 01:14:21.170 --> 01:14:23.830 which were to be 1005 01:14:23.830 --> 01:14:27.790 be put into effect. And 1006 01:14:31.380 --> 01:14:37.300 Judge Goldberg heard testimony from all parties, 1007 01:14:37.500 --> 01:14:39.620 and this was a 1008 01:14:39.620 --> 01:14:42.480 public hearing on the OSHA Act. 1009 01:14:44.430 --> 01:14:45.970 Judge Goldberg? 1010 01:14:47.650 --> 01:14:48.650 Yes. 1011 01:14:48.550 --> 01:14:49.550 Is that right, Supreme Court? 1012 01:14:50.130 --> 01:14:53.690 No, sir. No, sir. No. No, Judge Goldberg. 1013 01:14:53.930 --> 01:14:55.650 This is a different Goldberg. 1014 01:15:03.270 --> 01:15:04.690 Keep your voice up. 1015 01:15:04.750 --> 01:15:05.750 I'll try. 1016 01:15:05.130 --> 01:15:11.010 right all right uh do you know whether the uh asbestos installation worker union 1017 01:15:11.010 --> 01:15:12.010 was represented 1018 01:15:11.730 --> 01:15:17.710 in those hearings they were yes sir mr sheckler let me hand you what we will 1019 01:15:17.710 --> 01:15:18.710 mark for identification 1020 01:15:18.470 --> 01:15:21.950 as uh deposition exhibit f and 1021 01:15:27.710 --> 01:15:30.030 i'll ask you to tell the court and jury please what that 1022 01:15:30.030 --> 01:15:32.530 exhibit is? This 1023 01:15:59.280 --> 01:16:04.400 exhibit is a group of purchase 1024 01:16:04.400 --> 01:16:09.420 specifications for packaging 1025 01:16:09.420 --> 01:16:15.980 material for thermal insulation products. 1026 01:16:16.520 --> 01:16:23.760 The purchase specifications indicate 1027 01:16:23.760 --> 01:16:28.720 along with other information 1028 01:16:28.720 --> 01:16:32.640 that the required 1029 01:16:34.140 --> 01:16:39.660 imprint of labels on the packages. 1030 01:16:40.600 --> 01:16:46.340 I assume you had packages on hand without labels at the time 1031 01:16:46.340 --> 01:16:48.240 those specifications were adopted. 1032 01:16:48.240 --> 01:16:53.740 Yes, sir, and in all of the locations manufacturing thermal insulation 1033 01:16:53.740 --> 01:16:56.440 products by Johns-Manville, 1034 01:16:56.560 --> 01:17:01.420 there were bags and cartons in 1035 01:17:01.420 --> 01:17:07.360 stock at the time in April of 1036 01:17:07.360 --> 01:17:11.920 1964 when it was decided 1037 01:17:12.000 --> 01:17:15.620 to put this label on the packages. 1038 01:17:15.620 --> 01:17:20.480 It was an attempt made to label those unlabeled packages and cartons. 1039 01:17:20.660 --> 01:17:21.660 Objection. 1040 01:17:21.400 --> 01:17:22.980 Our proper foundation initiated 1041 01:17:34.380 --> 01:17:40.300 the label that is now in 1042 01:17:40.300 --> 01:17:43.720 evidence noted as 64-70 label 1043 01:17:43.720 --> 01:17:49.520 on a stick-on back type 1044 01:17:49.520 --> 01:17:55.340 of material that could be applied to the cartons and 1045 01:17:55.340 --> 01:17:56.340 bags that had 1046 01:17:56.200 --> 01:18:02.020 had already been in stock. I then took that stick-on 1047 01:18:02.020 --> 01:18:06.120 label to the Manville production 1048 01:18:06.120 --> 01:18:11.580 location to determine if it could be 1049 01:18:11.580 --> 01:18:15.280 applied without problems. 1050 01:18:15.820 --> 01:18:22.360 And it was not a practical 1051 01:18:22.360 --> 01:18:28.240 thing to use. By virtue of the 1052 01:18:28.240 --> 01:18:33.600 fact that the workers didn't like to use it, they felt that 1053 01:18:33.600 --> 01:18:38.420 it slowed down their operation, and most of those workers were on an 1054 01:18:38.420 --> 01:18:44.740 incentive type of 1055 01:18:49.320 --> 01:18:54.360 basis for being paid, which is like a piecework basis. 1056 01:18:55.540 --> 01:18:59.260 I then immediately discontinued the 1057 01:18:59.260 --> 01:19:04.980 idea of the stick-on labels, and I had ink 1058 01:19:04.980 --> 01:19:11.080 stamps made with the language and the size 1059 01:19:11.080 --> 01:19:15.520 of the label, and provided black stamp pads. 1060 01:19:16.600 --> 01:19:23.820 I took that back out to Manville, and I determined 1061 01:19:26.130 --> 01:19:30.390 whether or not the stamps could be used on the packages. 1062 01:19:30.730 --> 01:19:33.410 They were very successful, 1063 01:19:33.630 --> 01:19:39.210 and so I immediately notified all locations 1064 01:19:39.210 --> 01:19:41.890 manufacturing thermal insulation products 1065 01:19:41.890 --> 01:19:47.630 to initiate stamping the label on the 1066 01:19:47.630 --> 01:19:51.090 cartons and the bags that were in stock 1067 01:19:51.090 --> 01:19:57.010 until such a time as the stock was diminished and 1068 01:19:57.010 --> 01:19:59.950 news new cartons and bags 1069 01:19:59.950 --> 01:20:04.790 were ordered and they of course were ordered in accord with the purchase 1070 01:20:04.790 --> 01:20:10.570 specifications with the label imprinted on the on the carton and 1071 01:20:10.570 --> 01:20:11.570 bag in 1072 01:20:11.230 --> 01:20:17.370 contrasting colors mr. Sheckler I'll hand you a series of five photographs which 1073 01:20:17.370 --> 01:20:19.930 which we will mark for identification as Exhibit G, 1074 01:20:22.990 --> 01:20:26.890 and I'll ask you to describe those for the court and jury, please. 1075 01:20:27.650 --> 01:20:31.690 There is a number, if you would refer to the number in the corner on the back 1076 01:20:31.690 --> 01:20:33.470 so we can know which one you're talking about. 1077 01:20:37.430 --> 01:20:40.590 Photograph number one that I have just been handed 1078 01:20:41.910 --> 01:20:47.130 is a photograph of a 1079 01:20:47.130 --> 01:20:50.870 Thermobestos pipe insulation carton 1080 01:20:50.870 --> 01:20:55.890 laid out flat so that four sides of the carton can be viewed, 1081 01:20:56.090 --> 01:21:01.670 and the front 1082 01:21:01.670 --> 01:21:04.190 of the carton 1083 01:21:04.190 --> 01:21:09.930 and the back of the carton carry the Johns-Manville logo and the name of the product, 1084 01:21:10.110 --> 01:21:15.610 and each side of the carton carries a printed 1085 01:21:15.610 --> 01:21:19.230 version, and in this instance is a printed 1086 01:21:19.230 --> 01:21:21.490 printed version of the 1970 1087 01:21:21.490 --> 01:21:26.970 Voluntary Health Caution Label. 1088 01:21:26.970 --> 01:21:27.970 Would you hold the 1089 01:21:27.790 --> 01:21:32.150 picture please so we can get it? Certainly. And perhaps point to the caution? 1090 01:21:32.150 --> 01:21:33.150 This is the 1091 01:21:33.330 --> 01:21:38.730 front and the rear of the carton and these are both sides of the carton 1092 01:21:38.730 --> 01:21:43.750 showing the health label. All right. Now what about photograph number two? 1093 01:21:43.750 --> 01:21:48.640 Photograph number two 1094 01:21:48.640 --> 01:21:54.340 is an enlarged photograph 1095 01:21:56.130 --> 01:22:00.350 of a Thermobestos pipe insulation 1096 01:22:00.810 --> 01:22:06.490 carton showing just one side of the 1097 01:22:06.490 --> 01:22:12.110 carton and one side of the end of the 1098 01:22:12.110 --> 01:22:13.310 carton, again 1099 01:22:13.310 --> 01:22:19.730 again showing the health caution label, and this is the 1970 Voluntary Health Caution 1100 01:22:19.730 --> 01:22:25.330 Label. This is the front of the carton, and this would be one side of the carton. 1101 01:22:25.430 --> 01:22:26.430 This 1102 01:22:26.090 --> 01:22:27.090 is the label. 1103 01:22:27.730 --> 01:22:29.210 Mr. The caution label? 1104 01:22:29.490 --> 01:22:35.250 Mr. Caution label, yes. Photograph number three 1105 01:22:35.250 --> 01:22:41.330 is a photograph of the caution 1106 01:22:41.330 --> 01:22:46.650 label itself showing the contrast, and this is the health caution label, the 1107 01:22:46.650 --> 01:22:53.310 voluntary health caution label, showing the contrasting colors and the imprint 1108 01:22:53.310 --> 01:22:55.890 of the label language. 1109 01:23:02.780 --> 01:23:07.060 Photograph number four 1110 01:23:07.060 --> 01:23:13.040 is a photograph 1111 01:23:13.040 --> 01:23:16.640 of a J.M. 1112 01:23:16.640 --> 01:23:22.560 Johns-Manville Thermobestos pipe insulation carton showing the 1113 01:23:22.560 --> 01:23:24.960 front and side view of that carton 1114 01:23:24.960 --> 01:23:28.960 with the mandatory 1115 01:23:31.300 --> 01:23:37.050 Occupational Safety 1116 01:23:37.050 --> 01:23:40.210 and Health Administration caution label 1117 01:23:40.210 --> 01:23:45.870 required by federal law. And that's shown on one side 1118 01:23:45.870 --> 01:23:48.930 of the carton. 1119 01:23:50.370 --> 01:23:56.110 And this is the label required under the OSHA Act. 1120 01:24:03.030 --> 01:24:08.370 I did not mean to imply that this label did not show on the other side of the carton. 1121 01:24:08.370 --> 01:24:12.370 The photograph merely shows one side of the front and one side of the side. 1122 01:24:12.490 --> 01:24:16.250 I don't think we have to have this drive with this finger wherever we start. 1123 01:24:16.770 --> 01:24:18.430 The video will pick it up. 1124 01:24:21.370 --> 01:24:22.910 Yeah, I think it will, Your Honor, yes. 1125 01:24:22.910 --> 01:24:28.090 Photograph number five is a photograph of 1126 01:24:28.090 --> 01:24:33.870 the mandatory label required 1127 01:24:33.870 --> 01:24:35.430 under the Occupational 1128 01:24:35.430 --> 01:24:40.030 Safety and Health Act on a carton of 1129 01:24:40.030 --> 01:24:42.210 Thermobestos material. 1130 01:24:50.690 --> 01:24:55.550 Now, Mr. Sheckler, in addition to labeling the products, what 1131 01:24:58.080 --> 01:25:00.660 efforts, if any, were made 1132 01:25:00.660 --> 01:25:04.940 by Johns-Manville if you know to 1133 01:25:04.940 --> 01:25:09.860 further disseminate this information objection 1134 01:25:09.860 --> 01:25:15.470 improper foundation we made I was 1135 01:25:15.470 --> 01:25:19.910 involved in a I'm sorry I beg your 1136 01:25:19.910 --> 01:25:25.650 pardon is there an objection what is it he's 1137 01:25:27.700 --> 01:25:30.380 joining i'm here i'm joining you join it thank 1138 01:25:30.380 --> 01:25:31.380 you i 1139 01:25:37.420 --> 01:25:43.120 suggest we start with his name and uh how old he is that's not 1140 01:25:43.120 --> 01:25:44.240 necessary i would draw the 1141 01:25:44.240 --> 01:25:48.800 objection if he's having any problems would you reread the question i 1142 01:25:51.460 --> 01:25:52.800 got a question that's still 1143 01:25:52.800 --> 01:25:58.280 still pending is that right do you have the question in mind 1144 01:25:58.280 --> 01:26:01.460 mr whitman no i don't i'd 1145 01:26:18.660 --> 01:26:19.940 I became 1146 01:26:19.940 --> 01:26:24.800 involved 1147 01:26:26.650 --> 01:26:31.870 in a number of efforts which began immediately 1148 01:26:31.870 --> 01:26:35.490 subsequent to April 1964 1149 01:26:35.490 --> 01:26:40.310 1964 in conjunction 1150 01:26:40.310 --> 01:26:41.890 with 1151 01:26:43.810 --> 01:26:48.750 asbestos-containing thermal insulation products. 1152 01:26:52.660 --> 01:26:58.280 One of the first efforts begun was to diminish, 1153 01:26:58.540 --> 01:27:02.800 was a research product development effort 1154 01:27:02.800 --> 01:27:08.500 effort to diminish the amount of asbestos fiber which was being 1155 01:27:08.500 --> 01:27:11.560 put into thermal insulation 1156 01:27:11.600 --> 01:27:14.500 blocks and pipe covering. 1157 01:27:15.840 --> 01:27:20.800 Another of the efforts was a 1158 01:27:20.800 --> 01:27:23.560 research production 1159 01:27:27.240 --> 01:27:33.010 project to remove 1160 01:27:33.010 --> 01:27:37.170 insulation entire, I'm sorry, 1161 01:27:37.170 --> 01:27:43.530 to remove asbestos entirely from thermal insulation products. 1162 01:27:44.330 --> 01:27:46.370 Why didn't you just take it out? 1163 01:27:46.630 --> 01:27:52.350 It was impossible to 1164 01:27:52.350 --> 01:27:54.570 just take it out. 1165 01:27:56.190 --> 01:28:01.130 Asbestos fiber and thermal insulation is like steel 1166 01:28:01.130 --> 01:28:03.590 reinforcing rods in concrete. 1167 01:28:03.590 --> 01:28:09.550 concrete. It binds the insulation together in addition to 1168 01:28:09.550 --> 01:28:11.890 furnishing the thermal insulation 1169 01:28:12.350 --> 01:28:18.250 high temperature qualities for the purpose 1170 01:28:18.250 --> 01:28:21.750 the material is to be used. 1171 01:28:22.970 --> 01:28:25.170 Without the fiber 1172 01:28:25.170 --> 01:28:29.870 in it, it would crumble and without the fiber in it, it would no longer 1173 01:28:29.870 --> 01:28:34.350 insulate either 1174 01:28:34.350 --> 01:28:39.210 for heat or cold as required. There 1175 01:28:39.210 --> 01:28:45.350 are certain specifications by purchasers of 1176 01:28:45.970 --> 01:28:51.110 this material that would not permit removing the 1177 01:28:51.110 --> 01:28:53.030 asbestos from the 1178 01:28:53.030 --> 01:28:58.570 material, especially those and specifications 1179 01:29:01.390 --> 01:29:02.830 by the federal government, 1180 01:29:02.830 --> 01:29:04.290 the Navy, the Air Force. 1181 01:29:05.550 --> 01:29:08.190 All right, sir. 1182 01:29:09.430 --> 01:29:15.870 You were telling us about the research program to find substitute materials. 1183 01:29:15.990 --> 01:29:16.990 Yes, sir. 1184 01:29:16.870 --> 01:29:21.170 Another program that I was involved in undertaking 1185 01:29:21.170 --> 01:29:25.490 was an educational presentation 1186 01:29:25.490 --> 01:29:28.850 presentation to make 1187 01:29:31.470 --> 01:29:35.890 aware the outside 1188 01:29:35.890 --> 01:29:40.750 contractors and the outside 1189 01:29:40.750 --> 01:29:46.410 insulators of the potential 1190 01:29:46.410 --> 01:29:52.030 hazards involved with the use of asbestos- containing thermal insulation products. 1191 01:29:52.030 --> 01:29:53.870 Who sponsored that program? 1192 01:29:54.290 --> 01:29:59.950 Well, that program was sponsored by a number of companies 1193 01:29:59.950 --> 01:30:04.690 who were manufacturing thermal insulation products 1194 01:30:04.690 --> 01:30:10.090 through the then National Insulation Manufacturers Association. 1195 01:30:10.730 --> 01:30:14.390 And who are these contractors to which you refer? 1196 01:30:14.770 --> 01:30:17.090 The contractors to which I refer 1197 01:30:17.090 --> 01:30:22.310 are primarily the major contractors who 1198 01:30:22.310 --> 01:30:25.670 apply thermal insulation materials 1199 01:30:25.670 --> 01:30:31.090 throughout the United States and they are members of an association 1200 01:30:31.090 --> 01:30:32.090 called the 1201 01:30:32.010 --> 01:30:37.810 National Insulation Contractors Association or for short referred 1202 01:30:37.810 --> 01:30:38.810 to as 1203 01:30:38.470 --> 01:30:44.450 NICA. All right tell the court and jury please what information you 1204 01:30:44.450 --> 01:30:45.610 gave to them 1205 01:30:45.610 --> 01:30:47.730 and how it was done. 1206 01:30:55.610 --> 01:31:01.330 With a committee within the National 1207 01:31:01.330 --> 01:31:03.630 Insulation Manufacturers Association 1208 01:31:03.630 --> 01:31:08.830 and produced an educational program 1209 01:31:08.830 --> 01:31:13.750 that was then taken out 1210 01:31:13.750 --> 01:31:20.570 to the National Insulation Contractors Association membership 1211 01:31:20.570 --> 01:31:23.730 membership throughout the United States. 1212 01:31:25.090 --> 01:31:29.930 The committee included the president of NICA at 1213 01:31:29.930 --> 01:31:35.750 that time, who arranged for regional meetings throughout the United States of 1214 01:31:35.750 --> 01:31:37.190 the NICA groups. 1215 01:31:38.590 --> 01:31:44.030 The program was a program of approximately four to six hours duration. 1216 01:31:44.390 --> 01:31:45.790 It was an oral 1217 01:31:45.790 --> 01:31:51.730 presentation of the what 1218 01:31:51.730 --> 01:31:57.710 asbestos fiber is, what an asbestos fiber being a generic 1219 01:31:57.710 --> 01:32:03.110 term, the types of asbestos fiber involved in insulations, the 1220 01:32:03.110 --> 01:32:06.390 the way dust 1221 01:32:06.390 --> 01:32:12.250 is created on job sites, how dust is measured, 1222 01:32:12.390 --> 01:32:15.070 and how dust might be controlled 1223 01:32:15.070 --> 01:32:20.850 controlled by mechanical ventilation, types of respiratory equipment that could 1224 01:32:20.850 --> 01:32:22.030 be used 1225 01:32:22.250 --> 01:32:28.150 to prevent exposure, a demonstration of how 1226 01:32:28.150 --> 01:32:31.450 that respiratory equipment should be maintained 1227 01:32:31.450 --> 01:32:37.350 maintained and cleaned, a discussion of the necessity 1228 01:32:37.350 --> 01:32:42.510 of physical examination programs 1229 01:32:43.230 --> 01:32:48.410 for the contractors, insulation workers, 1230 01:32:48.690 --> 01:32:49.690 a 1231 01:32:53.960 --> 01:32:59.140 demonstration of what constituted threshold 1232 01:32:59.140 --> 01:33:05.100 threshold limit values and of course an explanation of what threshold limit values 1233 01:33:05.100 --> 01:33:08.280 were, and also 1234 01:33:08.280 --> 01:33:14.040 a demonstration of what constituted threshold limit values for 1235 01:33:14.040 --> 01:33:16.900 materials other than asbestos 1236 01:33:17.300 --> 01:33:20.140 which might be encountered on construction sites. 1237 01:33:20.620 --> 01:33:24.960 Mr. Sheckler, how many times did you make this presentation? 1238 01:33:24.960 --> 01:33:30.840 I made this presentation the first round 1239 01:33:30.840 --> 01:33:35.680 of meetings in 1966 and 67. 1240 01:33:37.240 --> 01:33:43.140 The presentation was given at approximately 12 1241 01:33:43.140 --> 01:33:46.200 or 14 different groups throughout the country 1242 01:33:46.200 --> 01:33:52.160 and that involved about 1,000 contractors, 1243 01:33:52.400 --> 01:33:53.760 or give or take. 1244 01:33:55.160 --> 01:33:58.980 The program was very well received, 1245 01:33:59.000 --> 01:34:04.760 and we were requested to amend the program with 1246 01:34:04.760 --> 01:34:05.900 additional information 1247 01:34:05.900 --> 01:34:12.420 and repeat a presentation the following year. 1248 01:34:12.420 --> 01:34:17.960 And there was specifically a request for written information 1249 01:34:17.960 --> 01:34:21.360 concerning the program that could 1250 01:34:21.360 --> 01:34:27.260 be passed down from the contractors to their supervisors and the workmen on the job. 1251 01:34:27.860 --> 01:34:29.400 And that was done. 1252 01:34:29.640 --> 01:34:35.160 We went back in 67, 68, made another round of these 1253 01:34:35.160 --> 01:34:39.040 various regional groups, and again 1254 01:34:39.040 --> 01:34:45.000 again talk to 1,000 plus or minus contractors in conjunction with 1255 01:34:45.000 --> 01:34:48.820 the same subject, providing additional information. 1256 01:34:49.180 --> 01:34:53.380 Mr. Sheckler, let me show you what we'll mark for identification as the deposition 1257 01:34:53.380 --> 01:34:55.380 exhibit letter H, 1258 01:34:55.640 --> 01:35:01.440 and I'll ask you if that is a copy of the booklet 1259 01:35:01.440 --> 01:35:04.260 that was prepared and distributed at that time. 1260 01:35:15.600 --> 01:35:21.540 This is a booklet entitled Recommended Health Safety Practices for Handling and 1261 01:35:21.540 --> 01:35:25.280 Applying Thermal Insulation Products Containing Asbestos 1262 01:35:25.280 --> 01:35:30.540 by the National Insulation Manufacturers Association. 1263 01:35:31.380 --> 01:35:37.060 And this is a booklet that I prepared in conjunction with 1264 01:35:37.060 --> 01:35:42.980 other members of the Health Safety Committee of the National 1265 01:35:42.980 --> 01:35:44.940 Insulation Manufacturers Association. 1266 01:35:45.460 --> 01:35:49.240 and this is the booklet that, along 1267 01:35:51.230 --> 01:35:52.230 with that committee, 1268 01:35:52.210 --> 01:35:57.730 I distributed to the National Insulation Contractors membership 1269 01:35:59.330 --> 01:36:04.150 plus a number of other people and organizations. 1270 01:36:04.670 --> 01:36:06.970 What kind of distribution did you have with it? 1271 01:36:08.150 --> 01:36:11.590 We printed 10,000 of these booklets to begin with, 1272 01:36:11.590 --> 01:36:16.730 and then we reprinted 10,000 more and utilized a 1273 01:36:19.030 --> 01:36:21.610 thousand of both printings. 1274 01:36:22.110 --> 01:36:27.930 Mr. Sheckler, was any attempt made by you to take this program to 1275 01:36:27.930 --> 01:36:30.030 the United States Navy 1276 01:36:30.030 --> 01:36:31.850 in conjunction with their shipyards? 1277 01:36:32.730 --> 01:36:34.850 Yes, sir. I was requested... 1278 01:36:34.850 --> 01:36:37.510 I'm judging the question of the Brownsville improper foundation, 1279 01:36:37.770 --> 01:36:39.650 since he's going to answer more than he asked. 1280 01:36:39.650 --> 01:36:43.700 I was requested in, 1281 01:36:43.700 --> 01:36:46.940 I'm 1282 01:36:49.630 --> 01:36:55.330 not certain the date, but sometime in late 67 or early 1968 1283 01:36:55.330 --> 01:37:01.190 to carry this program that we were presenting to the contractors 1284 01:37:01.190 --> 01:37:07.370 to the various shipyards of the United States Navy. 1285 01:37:07.370 --> 01:37:13.290 Navy. I contacted Captain Rosenwinkel 1286 01:37:13.290 --> 01:37:17.810 of the United States Navy, who was a health officer 1287 01:37:18.390 --> 01:37:24.110 who I had known from prior scientific organizational meetings, to 1288 01:37:24.110 --> 01:37:26.630 determine if Captain Rosenwinkel 1289 01:37:26.930 --> 01:37:32.370 would be interested in such a presentation being given at these shipyards. 1290 01:37:32.570 --> 01:37:34.010 I remember 1291 01:37:34.010 --> 01:37:39.990 I remember there were 12 shipyards which were earmarked for 1292 01:37:39.990 --> 01:37:40.990 such a program. 1293 01:37:46.520 --> 01:37:51.620 I spoke to Captain Rosenwinkel and Commander Barbo, 1294 01:37:51.760 --> 01:37:57.140 who was his associate at that time, about the program, 1295 01:37:57.440 --> 01:38:00.600 and I also communicated with him in writing. 1296 01:38:00.600 --> 01:38:06.520 After a period 1297 01:38:06.520 --> 01:38:12.120 of time, I was advised by Captain Rosenwinkel that 1298 01:38:12.120 --> 01:38:16.700 the United States Navy would 1299 01:38:16.700 --> 01:38:22.260 present their own program within the shipyards, 1300 01:38:22.360 --> 01:38:29.280 and they rejected the offer of NIMA to present 1301 01:38:31.130 --> 01:38:32.130 the program. 1302 01:38:33.990 --> 01:38:38.230 Mr. Sheckler, this 1303 01:38:40.500 --> 01:38:46.700 report of Dr. Selikoff's was from Mount Sinai. 1304 01:38:49.890 --> 01:38:55.770 Did J-M undertake any additional research with Mount Sinai following 1305 01:38:55.770 --> 01:38:56.990 the receipt of that 1306 01:38:56.990 --> 01:38:57.990 report? 1307 01:38:58.250 --> 01:38:59.330 The Jackson and Propper Foundation. 1308 01:39:02.870 --> 01:39:03.870 Yes, sir. 1309 01:39:03.750 --> 01:39:06.090 There was, I 1310 01:39:09.260 --> 01:39:14.360 was requested to prepare 1311 01:39:17.940 --> 01:39:19.520 for Dr. Selikoff. 1312 01:39:19.580 --> 01:39:23.700 Dr. Selikoff had been aware of the NIMA program, 1313 01:39:24.610 --> 01:39:31.980 and I was requested to prepare for Dr. Selikoff a list of people 1314 01:39:31.980 --> 01:39:37.390 within the government, industry, 1315 01:39:37.710 --> 01:39:42.710 labor, and universities 1316 01:39:45.370 --> 01:39:50.670 who would be interested in participating in an 1317 01:39:50.670 --> 01:39:53.250 educational program 1318 01:39:53.250 --> 01:39:59.210 that would be taken directly to 1319 01:39:59.210 --> 01:40:01.390 the worker level 1320 01:40:03.290 --> 01:40:07.970 of the thermal insulation application group. 1321 01:40:08.350 --> 01:40:10.250 Did you prepare such a list? 1322 01:40:10.430 --> 01:40:11.430 I did, yes, sir. 1323 01:40:11.270 --> 01:40:16.150 I prepared such a list and presented it to Dr. Selikoff. 1324 01:40:16.370 --> 01:40:22.370 And tell us what happened after that with respect to that group of people. 1325 01:40:22.650 --> 01:40:23.650 Yes, sir. 1326 01:40:23.190 --> 01:40:29.170 Dr. Selikoff prepared and sent out invitations to these people 1327 01:40:29.170 --> 01:40:36.330 to attend a meeting at the New York Academy of Sciences in New York City, and 1328 01:40:37.170 --> 01:40:42.610 such a meeting was held, I believe, in July of 1968. 1329 01:40:43.470 --> 01:40:49.830 Mr. Sheckler, I'll show you what's been marked for identification as Deposition 1330 01:40:49.830 --> 01:40:51.810 Exhibit I, and 1331 01:40:56.290 --> 01:40:58.550 ask you if that is a copy of that agenda. 1332 01:41:12.280 --> 01:41:18.120 Yes, sir. This is a copy of the agenda and the date of 1333 01:41:18.120 --> 01:41:22.420 the meeting was May 14, 1968. 1334 01:41:23.140 --> 01:41:24.460 Did you attend that meeting? 1335 01:41:24.820 --> 01:41:25.820 I did, yes, sir. 1336 01:41:26.800 --> 01:41:32.620 Can you tell the court and the jury, please, what the IIHRP is? 1337 01:41:32.620 --> 01:41:38.180 I-I-H-R-P is a title that we 1338 01:41:38.180 --> 01:41:43.580 initiated for this program. It was the Industrial 1339 01:41:43.580 --> 01:41:46.980 Insulation Hygiene Research Program. 1340 01:41:47.560 --> 01:41:50.300 And what did that program undertake to do? 1341 01:41:50.580 --> 01:41:51.760 Objection, improper foundation. 1342 01:41:51.760 --> 01:41:57.480 This program undertook to evaluate 1343 01:41:57.480 --> 01:42:00.620 the working 1344 01:42:00.620 --> 01:42:04.180 environment 1345 01:42:06.670 --> 01:42:09.670 of the thermal insulation workers 1346 01:42:09.670 --> 01:42:13.090 on construction sites who were applying materials. 1347 01:42:13.090 --> 01:42:18.210 It also was designed to evaluate 1348 01:42:18.210 --> 01:42:24.150 methods of application, materials for 1349 01:42:24.150 --> 01:42:27.510 application, removing 1350 01:42:27.510 --> 01:42:31.870 materials already installed. 1351 01:42:31.870 --> 01:42:37.470 It was designed to evaluate respiratory 1352 01:42:37.470 --> 01:42:40.990 equipment, housekeeping practices. 1353 01:42:41.910 --> 01:42:47.710 It was designed to evaluate a medical surveillance 1354 01:42:47.710 --> 01:42:50.850 program or a physical examination program 1355 01:42:50.850 --> 01:42:55.990 for these people, their cigarette-smoking habits. 1356 01:42:55.990 --> 01:43:01.250 and generally to 1357 01:43:01.250 --> 01:43:04.370 develop educational material 1358 01:43:04.370 --> 01:43:10.130 that could be directed to the insulation worker himself. 1359 01:43:10.490 --> 01:43:12.670 Do you know who the sponsors of that program were? 1360 01:43:12.970 --> 01:43:13.970 I have no objection. 1361 01:43:14.150 --> 01:43:15.150 Yes, sir. 1362 01:43:14.890 --> 01:43:15.890 Who were they? 1363 01:43:15.430 --> 01:43:19.450 The sponsors of the program were 1364 01:43:20.250 --> 01:43:24.510 the Environmental Sciences Laboratory of Mount Sinai, 1365 01:43:24.510 --> 01:43:29.690 Hospital, the Heat Frost and Asbestos Workers 1366 01:43:29.690 --> 01:43:36.710 International Union, the United 1367 01:43:37.990 --> 01:43:42.210 States Public Health Service, and Johns- Manville Corporation. 1368 01:43:43.050 --> 01:43:44.650 Did Johns-Manville 1369 01:43:44.650 --> 01:43:48.010 support the program financially? They did, yes, sir. 1370 01:43:48.050 --> 01:43:51.490 I'm sorry. Yes, sir, they did. What 1371 01:43:51.490 --> 01:43:54.670 What other efforts did Johns-Manville make in connection with the program? 1372 01:43:55.030 --> 01:43:56.030 Same objection. 1373 01:43:56.290 --> 01:43:59.470 In addition to supporting the program financially, 1374 01:43:59.690 --> 01:44:05.650 they provided equipment by virtue of transportation 1375 01:44:05.650 --> 01:44:08.310 equipment, automobiles. 1376 01:44:08.370 --> 01:44:13.610 They provided an electron microscope for 1377 01:44:13.610 --> 01:44:17.290 Mount Sinai Environmental Laboratory, 1378 01:44:17.290 --> 01:44:22.830 and they provided the services on a detached service basis 1379 01:44:22.830 --> 01:44:26.710 of a professional industrial hygienist 1380 01:44:26.710 --> 01:44:31.890 for full-time work with Mount Sinai Hospital. 1381 01:44:32.130 --> 01:44:33.130 And who was that? 1382 01:44:33.390 --> 01:44:36.370 That was Mr. William Reitze. 1383 01:44:37.790 --> 01:44:40.370 Reitze, R-E-I-T-Z-E. 1384 01:44:40.370 --> 01:44:44.970 Mr. Sheckler, did the 1385 01:44:44.970 --> 01:44:50.670 IIHRP program produce any publications 1386 01:44:50.670 --> 01:44:52.790 for distribution to the Union 1387 01:44:52.790 --> 01:44:53.790 membership? 1388 01:44:53.630 --> 01:44:54.750 Yes, sir. 1389 01:44:54.830 --> 01:45:00.730 Let me show you what has been marked as Deposition Exhibit J. 1390 01:45:00.890 --> 01:45:03.930 Installation activities. 1391 01:45:03.930 --> 01:45:09.900 activities. These were papers that 1392 01:45:09.900 --> 01:45:13.560 were produced four times a year, published four times a 1393 01:45:13.560 --> 01:45:16.440 year and distributed. 1394 01:45:16.860 --> 01:45:19.080 How were they distributed, if you know? 1395 01:45:19.320 --> 01:45:24.780 They were distributed to the Heat, Frost and Asbestos Workers Union 1396 01:45:24.780 --> 01:45:27.340 and in turn placed 1397 01:45:27.340 --> 01:45:31.780 into their house organ, which was distributed to each member of that union. 1398 01:45:32.180 --> 01:45:33.720 They were distributed 1399 01:45:33.720 --> 01:45:39.610 to other trade 1400 01:45:39.610 --> 01:45:45.030 associations by me and Dr. 1401 01:45:45.770 --> 01:45:48.530 Selikoff also had additional 1402 01:45:48.530 --> 01:45:53.330 distribution. You say in the Asbestos Worker Union house organ, you mean the 1403 01:45:53.330 --> 01:45:57.870 magazine of the union? Yes sir. The membership? Yes sir, the magazine of the 1404 01:45:57.870 --> 01:46:02.450 union. Was there a reason why they were called the green sheets or why they were 1405 01:46:02.450 --> 01:46:07.590 printed on green paper? They were printed on green paper in order to 1406 01:46:07.590 --> 01:46:13.470 contrast from the black and white printing of the remainder of 1407 01:46:13.470 --> 01:46:14.990 the Union 1408 01:46:15.870 --> 01:46:21.650 house organ or the Union magazine. Are you 1409 01:46:21.650 --> 01:46:23.810 familiar with whether or not there 1410 01:46:23.810 --> 01:46:29.530 is in the green sheet any articles with respect to smoking and asbestos? 1411 01:46:29.710 --> 01:46:30.710 There 1412 01:46:30.310 --> 01:46:36.260 are, yes sir. I wonder if you would turn 1413 01:46:36.260 --> 01:46:40.620 to number four that appeared in I think 1414 01:46:40.620 --> 01:46:46.410 early 1969, see if such a 1415 01:46:46.410 --> 01:46:47.930 story is in there. I 1416 01:47:21.780 --> 01:47:25.120 believe it's volume one, issue number four, Mr. 1417 01:47:25.160 --> 01:47:26.160 Sheckler.