WEBVTT NOTE Machine transcript of the film's sound; not yet checked. 1 00:00:07.000 --> 00:00:09.140 Did we proceed without counsel? 2 00:00:09.340 --> 00:00:10.700 Oh, yes. I'm counsel. 3 00:00:11.020 --> 00:00:12.100 Without that counsel. 4 00:00:12.280 --> 00:00:13.280 Sure. 5 00:00:14.520 --> 00:00:20.040 Mr. Sheckler, did you find the reference to 6 00:00:20.040 --> 00:00:21.360 smoking and asbestos? 7 00:00:21.560 --> 00:00:22.560 I did, yes, sir. 8 00:00:23.360 --> 00:00:28.000 What is the lead on the article in the journal, please? 9 00:00:28.260 --> 00:00:29.260 Objection, hearsay. 10 00:00:29.120 --> 00:00:34.560 This is volume number one, issue number 11 00:00:34.560 --> 00:00:39.900 four, and the heading is Cigarettes, Asbestos, Don't 12 00:00:39.900 --> 00:00:43.960 Mix, by Irving J. Selikoff, Director, IIHRP. 13 00:00:44.540 --> 00:00:50.320 All right, now Mr. Sheckler, let me go back on one other question. 14 00:00:50.520 --> 00:00:56.220 In addition to the booklet prepared by the Thermal Insulation 15 00:00:56.220 --> 00:00:57.760 Manufacturers Association, 16 00:00:58.380 --> 00:01:03.480 Did Johns-Manville also prepare informational booklets for distribution to 17 00:01:03.480 --> 00:01:04.820 purchasers of its products? 18 00:01:05.060 --> 00:01:06.060 Objection, Foundation. 19 00:01:06.500 --> 00:01:12.360 Yes, sir. I worked on a number of other booklets that were produced. 20 00:01:12.720 --> 00:01:18.680 Let me show you what has been marked for identification as exhibits J, 21 00:01:18.980 --> 00:01:20.180 K, and L. 22 00:01:20.600 --> 00:01:21.600 We got a J. 23 00:01:21.120 --> 00:01:23.400 We got a J. I'm sorry, K, L, and M. 24 00:01:39.910 --> 00:01:43.990 Can you describe those exhibits for us, please? 25 00:01:44.630 --> 00:01:45.630 Yes, sir. 26 00:01:47.470 --> 00:01:53.070 This was a booklet which I 27 00:01:53.070 --> 00:01:55.070 assisted in preparing 28 00:01:56.190 --> 00:01:59.710 with the Sprayed Insulation Manufacturers Association 29 00:02:00.310 --> 00:02:03.550 entitled Spraying of Thermal Insulation. 30 00:02:08.540 --> 00:02:09.980 Are you referring to what? 31 00:02:10.160 --> 00:02:11.160 Okay. 32 00:02:11.860 --> 00:02:14.660 I'm sorry, sir. This is Exhibit K. 33 00:02:20.670 --> 00:02:22.330 What about Exhibit L? 34 00:02:23.310 --> 00:02:26.730 Exhibit L is a booklet entitled, 35 00:02:27.190 --> 00:02:31.270 What You Should Know About Asbestos and Health. 36 00:02:33.460 --> 00:02:39.240 Exhibit number M is a booklet entitled, 37 00:02:40.100 --> 00:02:44.900 Recommended Safety Practices for Handling Asbestos Fiber. 38 00:02:45.600 --> 00:02:48.920 And what distribution was made of those booklets? 39 00:02:49.060 --> 00:02:50.060 Objection, Foundation. 40 00:02:50.240 --> 00:02:55.400 The distribution of these booklets was made to trade organizations 41 00:02:57.680 --> 00:03:03.500 and to Mount Sinai Hospital and a number 42 00:03:03.500 --> 00:03:07.000 of contractors. 43 00:03:08.200 --> 00:03:12.280 Mr. Sheckler, let's go back now just a minute to the IIHRP. 44 00:03:12.280 --> 00:03:18.090 Has that program been described in the 45 00:03:18.090 --> 00:03:19.090 scientific literature? 46 00:03:23.640 --> 00:03:29.640 The IIHRP program has been described in the 47 00:03:29.640 --> 00:03:31.600 literature, yes, sir. 48 00:03:31.760 --> 00:03:35.760 Let me show you what we will mark for identification as Exhibit N, 49 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:53.480 and I'll ask you to tell the court and the jury what that exhibit is. 50 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:55.080 Jackson Improper Foundation. 51 00:03:58.300 --> 00:04:03.760 Exhibit N is a paper entitled Partnership for Prevention, the Insulation 52 00:04:03.760 --> 00:04:05.100 Industry Hygiene 53 00:04:05.100 --> 00:04:08.480 Research Program by Irving J. Selikoff, M.D. 54 00:04:08.500 --> 00:04:09.540 Where did it appear? 55 00:04:11.540 --> 00:04:17.040 This paper appeared in the journal Industrial Medicine, 56 00:04:17.300 --> 00:04:20.380 volume 39, number 4, April of 1970. 57 00:04:21.200 --> 00:04:23.280 Would you read just the first paragraph? 58 00:04:25.260 --> 00:04:26.260 Objection improper. 59 00:04:26.180 --> 00:04:27.180 Yes, sir. 60 00:04:26.820 --> 00:04:27.820 You're safe. 61 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:33.620 It says, the nation's first cooperative effort by an 62 00:04:33.620 --> 00:04:39.100 international labor union, industry, medical science, and government 63 00:04:39.100 --> 00:04:44.500 to conduct a preventative hygiene research program for insulation workers 64 00:04:44.500 --> 00:04:49.100 has been in productive operation for a year and a half. 65 00:04:50.120 --> 00:04:51.440 Create a new sentence. 66 00:04:51.440 --> 00:04:54.760 in the development of specific techniques and equipment 67 00:04:54.760 --> 00:04:58.620 to control and prevent exposure to dusts, 68 00:04:58.860 --> 00:05:02.160 as well as in the experience of cooperative support, 69 00:05:02.860 --> 00:05:08.680 the program will have application far beyond the insulation industry period. 70 00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:13.240 We go off, sir. 71 00:05:16.580 --> 00:05:20.340 Mr. Sheckler, before the break, 72 00:05:21.540 --> 00:05:26.040 we were discussing the Insulation Industry Hygiene Research Program. 73 00:05:27.580 --> 00:05:33.560 Did any of that program deal with research on respirators for use by insulation workers? 74 00:05:33.840 --> 00:05:34.900 Objection, improper foundation. 75 00:05:35.260 --> 00:05:37.600 And if it did, will you tell us what? 76 00:05:37.820 --> 00:05:40.120 I'm sorry, I thought you were through. Objection, improper foundation. 77 00:05:40.520 --> 00:05:47.000 Yes, sir. That program did include a respiratory equipment evaluation, 78 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:52.740 an evaluation of filter media and fitting. 79 00:05:52.740 --> 00:05:56.880 DR. Were improved respirators developed as a result of that program? 80 00:05:57.080 --> 00:05:58.080 DR. Same objection. 81 00:05:57.880 --> 00:06:03.080 DR. Improved respirators were developed as a result of two research programs, one 82 00:06:03.080 --> 00:06:08.940 specifically sponsored by Johns-Manville and the other 83 00:06:08.940 --> 00:06:13.480 through the IIHRP. The result of 84 00:06:13.480 --> 00:06:18.040 both programs was several 85 00:06:19.670 --> 00:06:25.910 disposable single-use type respirators that were 86 00:06:25.910 --> 00:06:30.010 suitable for filtering out asbestos fiber. 87 00:06:30.270 --> 00:06:35.360 Mr. Sheckler, I neglected to ask you 88 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:39.420 initially if you were a member of any professional organizations or societies. 89 00:06:39.420 --> 00:06:40.420 Are you? 90 00:06:40.420 --> 00:06:41.420 MR. 91 00:06:40.960 --> 00:06:41.960 Yes, sir. 92 00:06:41.620 --> 00:06:42.660 Will you tell us what they are? 93 00:06:43.460 --> 00:06:48.940 I'm a professional member of the American Society of 94 00:06:48.940 --> 00:06:50.300 Safety Engineers. 95 00:06:52.060 --> 00:06:57.240 I have just completed serving two 96 00:06:57.240 --> 00:07:03.100 three-year terms as a director of 97 00:07:03.100 --> 00:07:04.220 the Industrial Health 98 00:07:04.220 --> 00:07:05.220 Foundation. 99 00:07:05.340 --> 00:07:06.340 MR. 100 00:07:06.040 --> 00:07:07.040 What is the... 101 00:07:06.860 --> 00:07:07.860 Excuse me. 102 00:07:07.400 --> 00:07:08.400 I'm sorry. 103 00:07:07.620 --> 00:07:08.620 Sorry, go ahead. 104 00:07:08.060 --> 00:07:13.800 And I was formerly a member of the American Industrial 105 00:07:13.800 --> 00:07:15.120 Hygiene Association. 106 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:17.820 What is the Industrial Health Foundation? 107 00:07:18.420 --> 00:07:19.460 Just the proper foundation. 108 00:07:20.420 --> 00:07:25.880 Industrial Health Foundation is an organization formulated 109 00:07:25.880 --> 00:07:30.420 to review, improve, and research 110 00:07:31.540 --> 00:07:34.580 work in the occupational health fields. 111 00:07:34.580 --> 00:07:40.380 Do you know whether or not the Industrial Health Foundation conducted 112 00:07:40.380 --> 00:07:43.340 any research in connection with asbestos- related diseases? 113 00:07:43.800 --> 00:07:44.820 Objection, Appropriate Foundation. 114 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:47.580 Yes, sir, they did. 115 00:07:49.120 --> 00:07:50.540 Can you tell us about it? 116 00:07:50.660 --> 00:07:51.660 Same objection. 117 00:07:52.080 --> 00:07:53.080 Yes, sir. 118 00:07:53.760 --> 00:07:59.140 The Industrial Health Foundation conducted work, 119 00:08:02.130 --> 00:08:07.030 epidemiological study of miners and millers in the province of Quebec, Canada 120 00:08:07.030 --> 00:08:09.710 in conjunction 121 00:08:09.710 --> 00:08:12.930 with the Quebec Asbestos Mining Association. 122 00:08:13.710 --> 00:08:18.670 And did the results of that study appear in a recognized scientific journal? 123 00:08:18.770 --> 00:08:19.770 Yes, sir. 124 00:08:19.850 --> 00:08:26.570 You have in front of you what has been marked for identification as Exhibit O. 125 00:08:28.270 --> 00:08:29.570 Is that a 126 00:08:29.570 --> 00:08:35.450 copy of that report yes sir now again will you tell us 127 00:08:35.450 --> 00:08:37.190 the population that was 128 00:08:37.190 --> 00:08:43.130 studied proper foundation this study was made of 129 00:08:43.130 --> 00:08:47.170 of workers in the mining 130 00:08:47.170 --> 00:08:52.270 operations and workers in the milling operations of the 131 00:08:52.270 --> 00:08:56.810 asbestos mines in the 132 00:08:56.810 --> 00:09:00.730 province of Quebec, Canada. When was it published? 133 00:09:01.170 --> 00:09:04.550 I believe it was published in 1958. 134 00:09:05.330 --> 00:09:06.330 And what were 135 00:09:06.190 --> 00:09:09.850 the conclusions of the study, if you know? Objection. 136 00:09:09.850 --> 00:09:11.690 Objection by the Foundation. Calls for your signature. 137 00:09:12.310 --> 00:09:15.830 The conclusions of the study, evidence 138 00:09:23.060 --> 00:09:28.280 of an increased, an increase of 139 00:09:28.280 --> 00:09:32.510 lung cancer 140 00:09:32.510 --> 00:09:38.150 sir, among the miners and millers in the asbestos mines 141 00:09:38.150 --> 00:09:42.330 above or beyond that of the general 142 00:09:42.330 --> 00:09:43.330 population. 143 00:09:47.540 --> 00:09:50.000 Mr. Sheckler, that's all. Thank you very much. 144 00:09:50.180 --> 00:09:51.180 Yes, sir. 145 00:09:50.860 --> 00:09:52.060 Take a break for a minute. 146 00:09:52.220 --> 00:09:53.420 Do you want this marked? 147 00:09:53.700 --> 00:09:54.700 Yes, it's marked. 148 00:09:55.660 --> 00:10:01.380 Name is Fred Luckey. Mr. Sheckler, my name is Fred 149 00:10:01.380 --> 00:10:02.380 Luckey, and I represent 150 00:10:02.260 --> 00:10:06.040 in Raybestos, Manhattan, and I have a very few questions for you. 151 00:10:06.720 --> 00:10:10.320 Did you personally participate in Johns- Manville's decision 152 00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:16.640 as to what asbestos-containing thermal insulation products would be labeled in 1964? 153 00:10:18.160 --> 00:10:19.160 Yes, sir. 154 00:10:19.300 --> 00:10:23.900 Was asbestos-containing cloth labeled by Johns-Manville in 1964 155 00:10:23.900 --> 00:10:28.560 when Johns-Manville labeled its asbestos- containing thermal insulation products? 156 00:10:29.660 --> 00:10:33.060 What do you mean by asbestos-containing cloth? 157 00:10:34.140 --> 00:10:36.320 I don't understand that terminology. 158 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:47.770 Yes, I'm referring to asbestos-containing cloth, which is commonly 159 00:10:47.770 --> 00:10:49.870 referred to as a textile product. 160 00:10:51.110 --> 00:10:55.150 All right, I understand. You're referring to asbestos textile cloth. 161 00:10:55.490 --> 00:10:56.490 Correct. 162 00:10:56.430 --> 00:11:00.170 That material was not labeled in 1964. 163 00:11:00.170 --> 00:11:06.610 Did you consider asbestos-containing cloth to be a thermal insulation product 164 00:11:06.610 --> 00:11:10.970 when the decision was made to label certain asbestos-containing 165 00:11:10.970 --> 00:11:14.010 thermal insulation products at Johns- Manville in 1964? 166 00:11:14.570 --> 00:11:16.810 Objection, Amy. Do you mean the witness personally? 167 00:11:17.110 --> 00:11:18.110 Yes. 168 00:11:17.830 --> 00:11:18.830 Okay. 169 00:11:18.090 --> 00:11:23.950 I did not consider asbestos textile cloth to be 170 00:11:23.950 --> 00:11:27.310 a thermal insulation material. 171 00:11:27.310 --> 00:11:28.310 material. 172 00:11:29.210 --> 00:11:34.430 You personally participated in the decision concerning whether or not to label 173 00:11:34.430 --> 00:11:37.310 asbestos containing cloth in 1964, did you not? 174 00:11:37.630 --> 00:11:38.630 Yes, sir. 175 00:11:38.690 --> 00:11:44.510 Did those participating in the decision at a corporate level at 176 00:11:44.510 --> 00:11:45.510 Johns-Manville 177 00:11:45.230 --> 00:11:48.610 in 1964 consider cloth to be a thermal insulation product? 178 00:11:48.790 --> 00:11:49.790 Objection. 179 00:11:49.290 --> 00:11:50.290 The proper foundation. 180 00:11:51.490 --> 00:11:52.490 Hearsay. 181 00:11:52.790 --> 00:11:54.990 I will object that the cloth is speculated. 182 00:11:54.990 --> 00:11:59.600 was I must wait 183 00:12:02.960 --> 00:12:07.540 on that answer and assume they did not at any rate you did 184 00:12:07.540 --> 00:12:13.880 not first I did not consider asbestos textile cloth to be in a thermal 185 00:12:13.880 --> 00:12:15.920 insulation material was 186 00:12:20.620 --> 00:12:23.660 one of the criteria the Johns-Manville used in 1964 187 00:12:23.660 --> 00:12:29.080 to decide which asbestos containing products to label whether those products 188 00:12:29.080 --> 00:12:33.580 readily gave off loose asbestos fibers in the use of those products objection 189 00:12:33.580 --> 00:12:34.580 Objection, in improper foundation. 190 00:12:38.470 --> 00:12:43.410 Was one of the reasons that asbestos- containing cloth was not labeled because 191 00:12:43.410 --> 00:12:45.450 asbestos-containing 192 00:12:45.450 --> 00:12:49.610 cloth did not readily give off loose asbestos in the use of that cloth? 193 00:12:49.790 --> 00:12:50.850 Objection, in improper foundation. 194 00:12:55.350 --> 00:12:56.670 Not at that time. 195 00:13:00.230 --> 00:13:05.790 Was one of the reasons for not labeling asbestos-containing cloth in 1964 196 00:13:05.790 --> 00:13:09.990 the belief that asbestos-containing 197 00:13:09.990 --> 00:13:15.570 cloth did not readily give off loose asbestos fibers in its use same objection 198 00:13:15.570 --> 00:13:19.990 no that was not 199 00:13:19.990 --> 00:13:25.570 the primary reason for not labeling asbestos cloth 200 00:13:25.570 --> 00:13:26.570 in 201 00:13:31.110 --> 00:13:33.250 1964 have 202 00:13:41.890 --> 00:13:44.270 you testified in two trials 203 00:13:44.270 --> 00:13:49.810 in the Los Angeles litigation yes I did were those trials a 204 00:13:49.810 --> 00:13:51.870 Rosalino directo trial and the 205 00:13:51.870 --> 00:13:55.610 lewis arsenal truck i wouldn't know the names of them but 206 00:13:57.980 --> 00:13:59.520 you have testified in two trials 207 00:13:59.520 --> 00:14:05.500 in los angeles i did yes sir i would like to give to john's manville's council 208 00:14:05.500 --> 00:14:08.340 two transcripts from 209 00:14:08.340 --> 00:14:13.320 those trials there are certain pages or lines from those transcripts that i wish to 210 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:14.320 show the 211 00:14:13.660 --> 00:14:19.580 witness to refresh his memory director in directo it is 212 00:14:19.580 --> 00:14:24.980 page 4603 lines 1 through 16 and an arsino 213 00:14:25.780 --> 00:14:30.480 it is page 4468 lines 5 through 10 and for the record 214 00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:33.960 that is the case of rosalino directo 215 00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:39.860 versus johns manville products corporation case number c259023 216 00:14:39.860 --> 00:14:42.920 and the case of louis joseph 217 00:14:42.920 --> 00:14:50.320 arsinoe Johns-Manville corporation versus Johns-Manville corporation case number c260808 218 00:14:51.020 --> 00:14:56.940 the testimony from the directo matter was on july 21st 1981 219 00:14:56.940 --> 00:15:00.280 and in the arsinoe case on july 22nd 220 00:15:00.280 --> 00:15:05.900 1981. You could read it to them. Ask him if it 221 00:15:05.900 --> 00:15:08.000 refreshes his recollection. That 222 00:15:15.490 --> 00:15:16.490 means you'll 223 00:15:16.070 --> 00:15:17.070 have it in the record. 224 00:15:56.860 --> 00:16:01.720 From the Arsenault trial page 4468 beginning with the question on line 225 00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:07.160 5 through the completion through the answer on line 10. Question, and what was the 226 00:16:07.160 --> 00:16:08.160 analysis of 227 00:16:08.060 --> 00:16:11.420 that group as far as cloth was concerned? Answer, cloth. 228 00:16:11.520 --> 00:16:13.420 We did not consider cloth an insulating 229 00:16:13.420 --> 00:16:17.780 material. Cloth was primarily used for brake linings and clutch facings and 230 00:16:17.780 --> 00:16:21.980 cloth was not a material that readily gave off loose asbestos in the use of 231 00:16:21.980 --> 00:16:26.020 the material. Do you want to finish the answer? 232 00:16:26.660 --> 00:16:29.700 We did however exercise process changes in the 233 00:16:29.700 --> 00:16:34.240 manufacture of cloth to abate dust. I didn't hear you. To abate dust. 234 00:16:34.680 --> 00:16:39.540 Does that refresh your 235 00:16:39.540 --> 00:16:45.680 your memory, Mr. Sheckler, as to whether one of the criteria that J.M. 236 00:16:45.800 --> 00:16:46.920 Johnsman will use 237 00:16:46.920 --> 00:16:52.240 not to worn cloth in 1964 was the fact that it did not freely give off asbestos fibers 238 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:53.240 in its use? 239 00:16:53.320 --> 00:16:59.300 That does not refresh my memory. I've explained to you that the date 240 00:16:59.300 --> 00:17:01.040 you gave me and the situation 241 00:17:01.040 --> 00:17:06.140 you gave me remains as my testimony a few moments ago. 242 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:11.400 Subsequent to 1964 when the decision 243 00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:16.600 was made to label insulation materials, we went to process changes 244 00:17:16.600 --> 00:17:19.220 that changed the consistency 245 00:17:19.220 --> 00:17:24.360 of the cloth entirely, which we felt then did not require labeling 246 00:17:24.360 --> 00:17:26.840 because it did not 247 00:17:26.840 --> 00:17:32.560 give off free asbestos uh dust 248 00:17:32.560 --> 00:17:37.800 or fibers in the quantity which would require labeling 249 00:17:38.210 --> 00:17:43.580 to strike everything after the 250 00:17:43.580 --> 00:17:46.860 statement that it is not refreshing recollection is not responsive 251 00:17:54.180 --> 00:17:58.530 was one of the reasons that john's mamble did not place a warning on its asbestos 252 00:17:58.530 --> 00:17:59.530 containing cloth 253 00:17:59.290 --> 00:18:05.210 cloth in 1964, that Johns-Manville did not feel 254 00:18:05.210 --> 00:18:08.090 that the use of asbestos cloth created 255 00:18:08.090 --> 00:18:13.630 dust emissions in excess of the existing threshold limit value of 5 millimeters per 256 00:18:13.630 --> 00:18:14.630 cubic foot 257 00:18:14.630 --> 00:18:15.630 at that time. 258 00:18:15.670 --> 00:18:17.810 Well, Fred, I think you misspoke yourself. 259 00:18:17.990 --> 00:18:18.990 You said 5 millimeters. 260 00:18:19.030 --> 00:18:20.030 Oh, excuse me. 261 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:23.520 5 million particles per cubic foot, I'm sorry. 262 00:18:24.500 --> 00:18:25.500 Objection. 263 00:18:25.020 --> 00:18:26.020 Brownsville and Piper Foundation. 264 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:28.840 If you're talking about Johns-Manville as opposed to this witness personally. 265 00:18:35.260 --> 00:18:40.860 Yes, sir, I do. No, sir. 266 00:18:41.800 --> 00:18:47.040 At that time, and I presume you're speaking now of April 1964, 267 00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:51.720 my was 268 00:18:56.130 --> 00:19:01.010 to change the process to wet weaving, which 269 00:19:02.290 --> 00:19:04.330 then would not require labeling. 270 00:19:09.070 --> 00:19:14.170 Was one of the reasons that Johns-Manville did not place a warning label on asbestos 271 00:19:14.170 --> 00:19:19.190 containing cloth in 1964 because Johns- Manville did not believe 272 00:19:19.190 --> 00:19:21.590 that the use of 273 00:19:21.590 --> 00:19:25.810 asbestos containing cloth at that time produced dust in excess of the existing 274 00:19:25.810 --> 00:19:29.090 TLV. Existing? I didn't hear you. TLV. 275 00:19:30.030 --> 00:19:33.210 Threshold Limit Value. I'd object, Your Honor, to ask an 276 00:19:33.210 --> 00:19:37.230 answer that's precisely the same question that was just asked. Objection at proper foundation. 277 00:19:37.230 --> 00:19:42.830 To the court, they concede to the referee 278 00:19:42.830 --> 00:19:46.810 that it is a repetitive objection to sustain. 279 00:19:47.930 --> 00:19:51.170 Your Honor, I would like to read into the record a 280 00:19:56.390 --> 00:19:58.950 portion of the Rosalina Directo transcript 281 00:19:58.950 --> 00:20:04.310 on page 4603, line 1 through 282 00:20:04.310 --> 00:20:09.970 line 16, through line 18, excuse me. 283 00:20:15.930 --> 00:20:20.690 I think you said you didn't label asbestos cloth because you didn't consider 284 00:20:20.690 --> 00:20:26.330 it an insulation material answer no i said we didn't label asbestos cloth because 285 00:20:26.330 --> 00:20:27.330 we didn't 286 00:20:26.990 --> 00:20:32.310 consider the material that would give off free raw asbestos in two dashes 287 00:20:32.310 --> 00:20:34.370 but i did testify at 288 00:20:34.370 --> 00:20:38.290 some length to the steps we took to change the processes in order to abate the dust 289 00:20:38.290 --> 00:20:39.290 from a cloth 290 00:20:39.630 --> 00:20:45.510 question in 68 answer well for mid 60s on question well correct 291 00:20:45.510 --> 00:20:46.510 me if i'm wrong 292 00:20:46.310 --> 00:20:51.170 Is it your testimony, essentially, that in 64 you didn't take any steps to label 293 00:20:51.170 --> 00:20:52.170 asbestos cloth 294 00:20:52.050 --> 00:20:56.750 because you felt that the use of it could not create the emission of asbestos fibers 295 00:20:56.750 --> 00:21:00.650 in excess of 5 million particles per cubic foot? 296 00:21:01.010 --> 00:21:02.750 Answer, that is correct. 297 00:21:03.870 --> 00:21:05.170 Question, that's correct. 298 00:21:05.650 --> 00:21:07.310 Answer, yes, sir. 299 00:21:08.230 --> 00:21:09.690 Continuing through line 21. 300 00:21:09.690 --> 00:21:15.350 Question. Was there any reason, any other reason, that you didn't label asbestos 301 00:21:15.350 --> 00:21:16.350 cloth at that time? 302 00:21:16.450 --> 00:21:18.550 Answer. At that time, no. 303 00:21:19.510 --> 00:21:22.070 Does that refresh your memory, Mr. Sheckler? 304 00:21:28.100 --> 00:21:33.960 Yes. I think that testimony is very accurate. 305 00:21:38.030 --> 00:21:43.510 In 1964 is one of the reasons why Johns- Manville did not place a label on 306 00:21:43.510 --> 00:21:44.510 asbestos cloth 307 00:21:44.390 --> 00:21:49.530 cloth because Johns-Manville felt that the use of that cloth would not create emissions 308 00:21:49.530 --> 00:21:54.470 of asbestos fiber in excess of the existing threshold limit value of 5 million particles 309 00:21:54.470 --> 00:21:55.470 per cubic foot. 310 00:21:55.550 --> 00:21:56.830 Jackson and Brown's Foundation. 311 00:22:09.800 --> 00:22:11.920 Yes, I would agree to that statement. 312 00:22:40.790 --> 00:22:46.230 When Johns-Manville instituted its labeling program 313 00:22:46.230 --> 00:22:48.150 of asbestos containing thermal 314 00:22:48.150 --> 00:22:53.550 insulation products in 1964, did it direct its attention 315 00:22:53.550 --> 00:22:55.750 initially to those products 316 00:22:55.750 --> 00:22:59.610 that contained loose fiber or that could create loose fiber when they were worked. 317 00:22:59.950 --> 00:23:00.950 Objection. 318 00:23:00.570 --> 00:23:01.570 Grabbed the foundations. 319 00:23:01.830 --> 00:23:03.110 Assumes facts, not evidence. 320 00:23:06.190 --> 00:23:11.590 Understand, I cannot testify for, quote, John's manville, 321 00:23:12.830 --> 00:23:15.930 but that was certainly my position. 322 00:23:21.020 --> 00:23:26.120 Your Honor, I would like to read into the record an excerpt 323 00:23:26.120 --> 00:23:31.980 from Mr. Sheckler's testimony in the case of Dolores M. 324 00:23:32.100 --> 00:23:33.100 Moran. 325 00:23:33.020 --> 00:23:34.840 versus Johns-Manville sales corporation 326 00:23:34.840 --> 00:23:36.260 you indicated 327 00:23:36.260 --> 00:23:41.240 there is an inconsistency 328 00:23:42.100 --> 00:23:44.100 with respect not only to this question but 329 00:23:44.380 --> 00:23:48.240 to prior questions that i have asked concerning these asbestos fibers 330 00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:02.700 prior to my reading 331 00:24:03.540 --> 00:24:04.820 into the record 332 00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:09.960 witnesses testimony from the moran trial 333 00:24:12.940 --> 00:24:17.860 videotape was apparently turned off and was not again 334 00:24:17.860 --> 00:24:22.940 turned on until after some testimony was 335 00:24:22.940 --> 00:24:28.200 elicited that testimony was taken by the court reporter 336 00:24:28.200 --> 00:24:29.940 and will now be 337 00:24:29.940 --> 00:24:35.870 be read into the record right onto the tape it 338 00:24:35.870 --> 00:24:37.850 is onto the tape excuse me 339 00:24:44.160 --> 00:24:50.040 tape is started mr mr 340 00:24:50.040 --> 00:24:55.340 lucky loris m moran versus johns manville sales corporation case 341 00:24:55.340 --> 00:25:01.160 number c793-345 district court of the united states from the northern 342 00:25:01.160 --> 00:25:02.160 district of ohio 343 00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:07.260 Ohio of the Eastern District. It was testimony given by Mr. 344 00:25:07.400 --> 00:25:10.740 Sheckler on April 28, 1981, which 345 00:25:10.740 --> 00:25:14.040 distinguishes this transcript from any I have ever seen. 346 00:25:14.200 --> 00:25:16.920 There are no page numbers, so I cannot tell 347 00:25:16.920 --> 00:25:19.980 you, Mr. Aaron, the questions and answers are numbered. 348 00:25:20.080 --> 00:25:21.820 Mr. Luckey, the question has answers, 349 00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:25.120 but no page numbers. Mr. Aaron, no, it's Mr. 350 00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:29.220 Simon. Or Mr. Fred. The questions are numbered, 351 00:25:29.220 --> 00:25:32.320 Mr. Otteson. No, just roll along. Mr. Lucky. 352 00:25:32.440 --> 00:25:35.720 Mr. Sheckler, did you give testimony in 353 00:25:39.600 --> 00:25:45.680 a case in the Northern District of Ohio, Eastern Division, on or about April of 1981? 354 00:25:46.260 --> 00:25:50.260 The witness, I gave testimony in Ohio. I am not familiar with the case number. 355 00:25:50.340 --> 00:25:55.780 Or, Mr. Lucky, I will start on whatever page at line 9, continue until the next 356 00:25:55.780 --> 00:25:57.240 page, line 9. 357 00:25:57.240 --> 00:26:02.360 question mr. Sheckler you started this labeling program beginning in 1964 358 00:26:03.040 --> 00:26:06.460 answer yes sir question what products did you start 359 00:26:06.460 --> 00:26:12.180 with what kind of sense and priority did you have did you have 360 00:26:12.180 --> 00:26:13.440 for it answer we 361 00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:18.180 started with the ant insulation products because we felt that was the most 362 00:26:18.180 --> 00:26:22.860 important at the moment the program was to expand to all products that contained 363 00:26:22.860 --> 00:26:28.500 loose fiber or that you that could create fiber when they were worked question what 364 00:26:28.500 --> 00:26:29.560 about asbestos 365 00:26:29.560 --> 00:26:35.560 cloth answer asbestos cloth was handled differently one asbestos cloth had 366 00:26:35.560 --> 00:26:36.560 a much 367 00:26:36.100 --> 00:26:41.820 dash first of all asbestos cloth or textiles we did not consider it to be 368 00:26:41.820 --> 00:26:43.220 insulation product 369 00:26:43.220 --> 00:26:49.000 to asbestos cloth had a lower priority because it doesn't give off the loose 370 00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:50.420 asbestos as does 371 00:26:50.420 --> 00:26:55.860 as the insulation materials we handled that via another method in about 372 00:26:55.860 --> 00:26:58.200 1970 and that was that 373 00:26:58.200 --> 00:27:03.520 we went to an oil spray and the manufacturing process of the textile cloth 374 00:27:03.520 --> 00:27:05.100 which abated the 375 00:27:05.100 --> 00:27:09.900 dust and then we went to a wet weaving process which gave the cloth an entirely 376 00:27:09.900 --> 00:27:11.020 different texture 377 00:27:11.780 --> 00:27:17.760 a question have you listened to that rendition of your testimony Mr. Sheckler answer 378 00:27:17.760 --> 00:27:18.760 yes i have 379 00:27:18.580 --> 00:27:24.800 question do you agree with it answer no there is a the process changes of going 380 00:27:24.800 --> 00:27:31.520 to oil and wet weaving were done between 1964 and sometime in the later 1960s 381 00:27:31.520 --> 00:27:38.040 they were begun in 64 as part of the research program I discussed before and 382 00:27:38.040 --> 00:27:43.520 as a result of the process changes we did not feel it or I did not feel it 383 00:27:43.520 --> 00:27:48.480 necessary to label asbestos cloth that was my opinion it was the opinion of 384 00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:53.140 of others. Marge and Mr. O'Reilly moved to strike the answer for purpose of objecting 385 00:27:53.140 --> 00:27:57.080 to the question on the grounds of improper foundation in light of the answer given. 386 00:27:57.380 --> 00:27:58.380 Mr. 387 00:27:57.980 --> 00:28:03.080 Luckey, in the answer that I read to you, you indicated, and I quote, we handled that 388 00:28:03.080 --> 00:28:08.900 via another method in about 1970. My question is, would that mean 389 00:28:08.900 --> 00:28:10.680 that the process was completed 390 00:28:10.680 --> 00:28:14.740 in approximately 1970 that you are referring to? Answer, yes. 391 00:28:14.760 --> 00:28:16.080 Marge and Mr. O'Reilly, same 392 00:28:16.080 --> 00:28:21.300 same objection question other than the one comment that you made do you agree with 393 00:28:21.300 --> 00:28:22.300 the remainder of 394 00:28:22.100 --> 00:28:26.480 the statement that you made in the testimony that i read to you answer yes sir 395 00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:27.560 question and 396 00:28:27.560 --> 00:28:33.200 sometime john mansfield did in fact at some time john mansfield did in fact place a 397 00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:34.200 warning on 398 00:28:33.800 --> 00:28:38.900 asbestos containing cloth did it not answer yes sir question the warning label that 399 00:28:38.900 --> 00:28:39.900 was first 400 00:28:39.500 --> 00:28:45.260 placed on john mansfield asbestos containing cloth that was the osha label that was developed 401 00:28:45.260 --> 00:28:48.540 in 1972, was it not? Answer, yes, sir. 402 00:28:48.680 --> 00:28:51.580 Marjorie, Mr. Luckey, thank you. Marjorie, Mr. Otteson, 403 00:28:51.620 --> 00:28:59.120 you weren't running a tape, were you? Do you want to go on? Mr. 404 00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:05.940 Sheckler, you know the attorney 405 00:29:05.940 --> 00:29:09.940 that took your deposition, is that correct, Mr. Lively Wilson? Yes, sir. 406 00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:12.020 And you know Mr. Lively 407 00:29:12.020 --> 00:29:17.580 Wilson to be an attorney that represents Johns-Manville in states other than the 408 00:29:17.580 --> 00:29:18.580 state of 409 00:29:17.820 --> 00:29:23.520 california yes sir in the asbestos litigation yes sir can you tell 410 00:29:23.520 --> 00:29:24.520 the ladies and gentlemen 411 00:29:24.520 --> 00:29:30.520 of the jury approximately how many times mr wilson on behalf of johns 412 00:29:30.520 --> 00:29:31.740 manville has taken 413 00:29:31.740 --> 00:29:35.040 your testimony with videotape no 414 00:29:41.530 --> 00:29:46.210 sir i can't i i don't uh i don't recall uh are 415 00:29:53.760 --> 00:29:54.760 we talking about 416 00:29:55.060 --> 00:29:59.040 more than five different occasions where mr wilson on behalf of johns manville 417 00:29:59.040 --> 00:30:05.580 took your testimony via videotape no sir I don't think so somewhere between one 418 00:30:05.580 --> 00:30:06.680 and five I 419 00:30:11.100 --> 00:30:17.100 recall two videotape depositions and I don't recall any 420 00:30:17.100 --> 00:30:21.300 additional two videotape depositions were mr. 421 00:30:21.420 --> 00:30:23.340 Wilson on behalf of Johns 422 00:30:23.340 --> 00:30:28.820 Manville asked you the questions yes sir and when were those two other videotape 423 00:30:28.820 --> 00:30:33.360 depositions. What year? Well, they were the 424 00:30:33.360 --> 00:30:37.740 Louisville deposition. 425 00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:39.000 He 426 00:30:45.020 --> 00:30:47.220 took an Ohio videotape 427 00:30:47.220 --> 00:30:52.370 deposition. Now, in addition to the two other 428 00:30:52.370 --> 00:30:55.470 videotape depositions where Mr. Wilson, on behalf 429 00:30:55.470 --> 00:31:01.230 of Johns-Manville, asked you the questions, Mr. Wilson also took your depositions 430 00:31:01.230 --> 00:31:02.370 where there 431 00:31:02.370 --> 00:31:06.450 there was no videotape equipment. Is that true? In asbestos litigation. 432 00:31:07.110 --> 00:31:14.610 I'll withdraw 433 00:31:22.780 --> 00:31:27.320 that question, Mr. Sheckler. I'll withdraw that question. Can you tell the ladies and 434 00:31:27.320 --> 00:31:33.540 gentlemen of the jury approximately how many times you have been placed under oath and 435 00:31:33.540 --> 00:31:38.480 given sworn testimony in a deposition in the United States in asbestos litigation? 436 00:31:39.060 --> 00:31:41.520 No, sir. I have no idea. 437 00:31:41.520 --> 00:31:42.520 Yeah. 438 00:31:42.800 --> 00:31:46.020 Are we talking approximately 30 different occasions 439 00:31:46.020 --> 00:31:47.560 where you've been placed under oath 440 00:31:47.560 --> 00:31:49.960 and given your testimony in the asbestos litigation? 441 00:31:50.480 --> 00:31:54.760 Mr. O'Reilly, I wouldn't venture a guesstimate at that. 442 00:31:54.840 --> 00:31:55.840 I just don't know. 443 00:31:56.160 --> 00:31:58.820 Are we talking about more than 20 times? 444 00:31:59.120 --> 00:32:01.020 Mr. O'Reilly, I don't know. 445 00:32:01.980 --> 00:32:04.440 Can you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury 446 00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:07.820 approximately how many times you have been placed under oath 447 00:32:07.820 --> 00:32:11.100 and given deposition testimony on the asbestos litigation 448 00:32:11.100 --> 00:32:16.600 litigation wherein Mr. Lively Wilson was present as an attorney on behalf of Johns- Manville 449 00:32:16.600 --> 00:32:17.600 at the deposition? 450 00:32:18.120 --> 00:32:19.120 MR. 451 00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:19.160 No, sir. 452 00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:20.840 I can't answer the question. 453 00:32:21.040 --> 00:32:22.040 I don't know. 454 00:32:21.860 --> 00:32:25.900 And you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury in approximately how many 455 00:32:25.900 --> 00:32:30.720 different states in the United States you have given testimony under oath 456 00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:32.440 in the especial 457 00:32:32.440 --> 00:32:33.440 litigation? 458 00:32:33.380 --> 00:32:34.380 MR. 459 00:32:34.300 --> 00:32:35.300 No, sir. 460 00:32:35.160 --> 00:32:36.160 I don't. 461 00:32:35.620 --> 00:32:36.620 MR. 462 00:32:35.640 --> 00:32:39.760 Are we talking about more than 12 states, 12 different states? 463 00:32:39.760 --> 00:32:43.260 I can't answer that question. I don't know. 464 00:32:43.980 --> 00:32:48.700 You have given testimony in the state of Texas on a asbestos litigation, have you 465 00:32:48.700 --> 00:32:49.700 not, sir? 466 00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:50.200 I have, yes, sir. 467 00:32:50.320 --> 00:32:53.880 You've given testimony in the state of Kentucky on a asbestos litigation, have 468 00:32:53.880 --> 00:32:54.880 you not, sir? 469 00:32:54.640 --> 00:32:55.640 Yes, sir. 470 00:32:56.000 --> 00:33:01.880 Approximately how many different occasions did you testify in Kentucky on a 471 00:33:01.880 --> 00:33:02.880 asbestos litigation? 472 00:33:06.210 --> 00:33:10.890 I recall testimony in Kentucky at least on one occasion. 473 00:33:10.890 --> 00:33:14.760 litigation. I don't know. 474 00:33:14.840 --> 00:33:18.220 I keep no records of this sort of thing, Mr. 475 00:33:18.320 --> 00:33:19.320 O'Reilly. I have 476 00:33:19.660 --> 00:33:24.700 never given any consideration to that sort of thing. 477 00:33:25.620 --> 00:33:30.660 You have testified, been placed under oath and testified in the asbestos litigation 478 00:33:30.660 --> 00:33:32.460 in the state of Minnesota, have you not, sir? 479 00:33:32.620 --> 00:33:33.620 Yes, sir. 480 00:33:33.340 --> 00:33:36.200 You have been placed under oath and given testimony in the asbestos litigation 481 00:33:36.200 --> 00:33:37.960 in the state of Ohio, is that true? 482 00:33:37.980 --> 00:33:38.980 Yes, sir. 483 00:33:38.780 --> 00:33:42.360 You have been placed under oath and given testimony in the asbestos litigation 484 00:33:42.360 --> 00:33:45.640 in the state of Tennessee. True? Yes, sir. 485 00:33:45.760 --> 00:33:48.240 State of South Carolina? Yes, sir. 486 00:33:48.360 --> 00:33:51.440 State of Virginia? Yes, sir. State of California? 487 00:33:51.880 --> 00:33:53.720 Yes, sir. State of Pennsylvania? 488 00:33:54.580 --> 00:33:57.280 Yes, sir. State of Colorado? I 489 00:34:06.110 --> 00:34:08.930 don't recall any testimony in Colorado, no, sir. 490 00:34:11.570 --> 00:34:17.550 Approximately September 15th, 1981, with attorneys Trine and Novak, 491 00:34:17.610 --> 00:34:18.610 did you 492 00:34:18.030 --> 00:34:23.230 you testify in a special litigation in the state of Colorado? I don't recall any testimony 493 00:34:23.230 --> 00:34:28.250 in Colorado. Oklahoma? Yes, sir. 494 00:34:28.450 --> 00:34:34.060 No, sir. 495 00:34:42.420 --> 00:34:44.700 Approximately September 1981, did you give 496 00:34:44.700 --> 00:34:49.180 testimony in the special litigation in the state of Maryland where there were attorneys 497 00:34:49.880 --> 00:34:54.520 Enoch, E-N-O-C-H, on behalf of the plaintiff, and Scott, on behalf of Johns- Manville? 498 00:34:55.140 --> 00:34:56.140 No, 499 00:34:55.660 --> 00:34:59.760 sir. Oklahoma? You asked that. 500 00:34:59.820 --> 00:35:03.220 I'm sorry. I'm sorry. North Carolina? I 501 00:35:09.750 --> 00:35:12.790 don't recall North 502 00:35:12.790 --> 00:35:16.450 Carolina. Georgia? Yes, sir. 503 00:35:18.470 --> 00:35:24.470 Wyoming? Yes, sir. Now, in approximately 504 00:35:24.470 --> 00:35:25.470 how many of the 505 00:35:25.250 --> 00:35:30.570 states that we've mentioned did you testify on more than one occasion? 506 00:35:30.950 --> 00:35:33.610 I don't recall 507 00:35:33.610 --> 00:35:36.190 I can't recall that either. I can't answer that question. 508 00:35:36.210 --> 00:35:39.770 In a number of those states that we've just gone through, did you testify on more 509 00:35:39.770 --> 00:35:40.770 than one occasion? 510 00:35:45.100 --> 00:35:49.240 Yes, in at least one I can recall. 511 00:35:50.820 --> 00:35:53.140 Approximately how many times have you been placed under oath 512 00:35:53.140 --> 00:35:57.080 and testified from the witness stand in a court of law in a special litigation? 513 00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:03.020 I cannot answer that question. I don't know. I don't keep a record of it, Mr. 514 00:36:03.040 --> 00:36:04.040 O'Reilly. 515 00:36:03.460 --> 00:36:08.640 You are here today at the request of Johns-Manville. Is that true? 516 00:36:08.960 --> 00:36:13.920 Well, my understanding, I'm here today at the request of Johns-Manville 517 00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:17.240 and here this week at your request and Johns-Manville's request. 518 00:36:17.880 --> 00:36:20.100 And in all, let me ask you, I'm sorry, 519 00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:27.260 can you tell us if the number of times that you have testified in a court of law 520 00:36:27.260 --> 00:36:31.460 from the witness stand in a asbestos litigation approximates between 20 and 30 times? 521 00:36:31.740 --> 00:36:37.240 i cannot answer the question i don't keep records of it mr o'reilly in 522 00:36:37.240 --> 00:36:39.420 all those situations where 523 00:36:39.420 --> 00:36:44.400 you testified from the witness stand in a court of law did you appear as a witness 524 00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:45.400 in all of those 525 00:36:45.300 --> 00:36:50.000 situations at the request of johns manville or attorneys for john's manville i 526 00:36:53.240 --> 00:36:54.300 i'm sorry would 527 00:36:54.300 --> 00:36:59.340 you read that question back please i don't think i understood it that's in 528 00:37:06.340 --> 00:37:07.340 all those situations 529 00:37:07.220 --> 00:37:10.380 where you have testified from the witness stand in a court of law, 530 00:37:10.660 --> 00:37:13.380 did you appear as a witness in all of those situations 531 00:37:13.380 --> 00:37:17.280 at the request of Johns-Manville or attorneys for Johns-Manville? 532 00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:23.120 Can you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury 533 00:37:23.120 --> 00:37:25.440 what your financial arrangement is with Johns-Manville 534 00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:26.660 for your testimony here today? 535 00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:29.320 Yes, sir. 536 00:37:34.600 --> 00:37:40.620 For time consumed in testimony and inconvenience of traveling, 537 00:37:40.620 --> 00:37:46.440 I am paid at the rate of $400 538 00:37:46.440 --> 00:37:49.440 a day, plus expenses. 539 00:37:50.060 --> 00:37:55.680 Is that the rate that you charged Johns- Manville 540 00:37:55.680 --> 00:37:57.580 for all of those occasions 541 00:37:57.580 --> 00:38:01.100 wherein you testified from the witness stand in a court of law 542 00:38:01.100 --> 00:38:02.100 on the asbestos litigation? 543 00:38:04.060 --> 00:38:05.060 No, sir. 544 00:38:04.980 --> 00:38:07.200 Was the rate different in any of those other occasions? 545 00:38:07.640 --> 00:38:09.840 Yes, sir, the rate was different. 546 00:38:10.200 --> 00:38:12.920 Okay, can you please tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury 547 00:38:12.920 --> 00:38:17.180 how the rate was different, what your charges were in those occasions as opposed to today? 548 00:38:19.040 --> 00:38:20.040 Yes, sir. 549 00:38:19.820 --> 00:38:25.600 The charges were $350 a day 550 00:38:25.600 --> 00:38:28.400 and found 551 00:38:34.040 --> 00:38:36.500 it necessary to increase them to $400 a day. 552 00:38:37.260 --> 00:38:41.400 Approximately when did you change your rate from $350 a day to $400 a day, 553 00:38:41.460 --> 00:38:42.620 if you can approximate it for us? 554 00:38:42.740 --> 00:38:44.200 I don't recall. 555 00:38:46.180 --> 00:38:47.680 Within the past year. 556 00:38:48.440 --> 00:38:52.800 did you have a conference with mr. lively Wilson prior to the beginning of 557 00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:56.420 your deposition today I did yes sir when did you have that conference or 558 00:38:56.420 --> 00:38:59.660 conferences this morning and did mr. 559 00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:01.600 Wilson go over the testimony that you 560 00:39:01.600 --> 00:39:06.800 would be given today we went over we went over the exhibits yes sir he showed 561 00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:09.800 you the exhibits and advised you what questions he would be asking you about 562 00:39:09.800 --> 00:39:15.080 those exhibits well he we discussed the exhibits and which exhibits would be 563 00:39:15.080 --> 00:39:18.820 forthcoming. Who was present during the conference besides you and Mr. 564 00:39:18.840 --> 00:39:19.840 Wilson? 565 00:39:20.560 --> 00:39:24.180 Ms. Smith. And who was Ms. 566 00:39:24.220 --> 00:39:26.700 Smith? Mr. Wilson's paralegal. 567 00:39:27.280 --> 00:39:30.700 I was just curious. You 568 00:39:35.240 --> 00:39:38.320 also are performing other services for Johns 569 00:39:38.320 --> 00:39:43.320 Manville in addition to making yourself available as a witness in the 570 00:39:43.320 --> 00:39:47.180 asbestos litigation. Isn't that true? Yes, sir, I do. 571 00:39:47.600 --> 00:39:53.600 And is it true that in approximately 1972 you began a project for Johns 572 00:39:53.600 --> 00:39:54.640 Manville wherein 573 00:39:54.960 --> 00:40:00.720 you began to collect and collate data on employees at the 574 00:40:00.720 --> 00:40:01.720 Manville facility? 575 00:40:03.060 --> 00:40:09.660 Yes, sir, sometime in approximately that time, yes. 576 00:40:09.660 --> 00:40:10.660 Yes. 577 00:40:11.100 --> 00:40:16.400 From 1936 until 1942, you were employed full-time by Johns-Manville at the Manville 578 00:40:16.400 --> 00:40:17.460 facility, correct? 579 00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:18.840 Yes, sir. 580 00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:24.020 1946 to 1952, you were employed full-time by Johns-Manville at the Manville 581 00:40:24.020 --> 00:40:25.020 facility, correct? 582 00:40:25.120 --> 00:40:26.120 That's correct. 583 00:40:26.080 --> 00:40:30.520 From 1952 to 1959, you were employed full- time by Johns-Manville at the Manville 584 00:40:30.520 --> 00:40:31.520 facility, correct? 585 00:40:31.520 --> 00:40:32.520 Yes, sir. 586 00:40:32.060 --> 00:40:37.920 From 1959 or 1960 until 1972, you were employed by Johns-Manville full 587 00:40:37.920 --> 00:40:40.100 -time at corporate headquarters in New York City, correct? 588 00:40:40.380 --> 00:40:41.440 That's correct, yes, sir. 589 00:40:41.560 --> 00:40:47.300 From 1972 until 1977, you were employed by Johns-Manville at approximately half-time. 590 00:40:47.540 --> 00:40:49.280 On a part-time basis, yes, sir. 591 00:40:49.420 --> 00:40:55.200 And you received half-salary from Johns- Manville from 1972 until 1977 for your 592 00:40:55.200 --> 00:40:58.000 part-time employment for them, is that correct? 593 00:40:58.280 --> 00:41:00.920 That's approximately correct, yes, sir. 594 00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:06.720 And in addition to being a part-time employee of Johns-Manville from 1972 until 1977, 595 00:41:07.240 --> 00:41:12.060 you also were performing services for them with respect to this project of 596 00:41:12.060 --> 00:41:13.140 collecting and collating data. 597 00:41:13.360 --> 00:41:14.360 True? 598 00:41:13.960 --> 00:41:18.960 As part of the part-time employment, yes, sir. 599 00:41:19.060 --> 00:41:24.080 From 1972 until 1977, you officed out of your residence in New Jersey? 600 00:41:24.420 --> 00:41:25.420 Yes, sir. 601 00:41:25.040 --> 00:41:27.520 You did not office at any Johns-Manville facility. True? 602 00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:38.240 Time at the Manville, New Jersey plant, periodically. 603 00:41:39.040 --> 00:41:40.760 From 1972 until 77? 604 00:41:41.040 --> 00:41:42.040 Yes, sir. 605 00:41:41.880 --> 00:41:43.600 Looking for and collecting the data? 606 00:41:43.800 --> 00:41:44.800 Yes, sir. 607 00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:45.400 For this project? 608 00:41:45.220 --> 00:41:46.220 Yes, sir. 609 00:41:46.960 --> 00:41:49.480 Your office during those years, was that your residence? 610 00:41:49.740 --> 00:41:50.740 That's correct. 611 00:41:57.950 --> 00:42:01.610 This project that you've been working on for Johns-Manville since 1972, 612 00:42:01.870 --> 00:42:03.750 you are still working on today, is that true? 613 00:42:04.310 --> 00:42:05.310 Yes, sir. 614 00:42:05.870 --> 00:42:11.270 And this project, let me rephrase that, Johns-Manville sometime in 1971 or 1972 615 00:42:11.270 --> 00:42:15.650 1972 advised you that they would like you to work on a project 616 00:42:15.650 --> 00:42:20.950 Wherein you would collect and collate data on employees of the Manville facility true 617 00:42:20.950 --> 00:42:25.470 That's correct, and you have been doing that on a part-time basis for John's 618 00:42:25.470 --> 00:42:28.050 Manville from 1972 up until today's date true 619 00:42:28.050 --> 00:42:31.470 Yes, sir from 1972 up until today's date 620 00:42:31.470 --> 00:42:34.510 Would you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what your financial arrangement 621 00:42:34.510 --> 00:42:36.430 is with Johns-Manville for? 622 00:42:36.630 --> 00:42:38.650 the collecting and collating of this data 623 00:42:39.830 --> 00:42:42.190 Yes, sir. On 624 00:42:47.950 --> 00:42:53.730 the collating of this data with Johns- Manville, on a 625 00:42:53.730 --> 00:42:58.120 agreement with them, 626 00:43:00.760 --> 00:43:04.720 basically the same today as it was in 1972, 627 00:43:05.180 --> 00:43:07.560 my 628 00:43:13.040 --> 00:43:18.560 time that is charged to them is charged 629 00:43:18.560 --> 00:43:23.770 on on a basis of 630 00:43:23.770 --> 00:43:29.770 the time I spend on the project and that time 631 00:43:29.770 --> 00:43:31.570 can vary from one 632 00:43:31.570 --> 00:43:37.250 day to the next or one week to the next that it all depends what 633 00:43:37.250 --> 00:43:38.250 is the 634 00:43:37.930 --> 00:43:42.970 approximate daily rate that you charge Johns-Manville for the services that 635 00:43:42.970 --> 00:43:48.190 you've been performing for them on this project from 1972 until today well the 636 00:43:48.190 --> 00:43:53.730 The way this project is charged out, 637 00:43:53.890 --> 00:43:59.130 the daily rate or the 638 00:43:59.130 --> 00:44:02.310 daily agreed rate back in 1972, 639 00:44:02.450 --> 00:44:06.270 of course, can't possibly exist today because of the inflation. 640 00:44:06.530 --> 00:44:10.210 So we have never made any additional agreements. 641 00:44:10.210 --> 00:44:15.330 And what I do is charge them on approximately the basis of 642 00:44:15.330 --> 00:44:21.260 $350 to $400 643 00:44:21.260 --> 00:44:24.020 a day, however, 644 00:44:24.220 --> 00:44:30.040 over a period of several days in order to make up the 645 00:44:30.040 --> 00:44:31.040 daily rate. 646 00:44:30.900 --> 00:44:33.040 It depends on how much time I spend on it. 647 00:44:33.300 --> 00:44:38.440 How often do you bill Johns-Manville for the work that you're doing on his project? 648 00:44:38.600 --> 00:44:41.180 I'm not talking about the work you're doing in the litigation for them. 649 00:44:41.180 --> 00:44:42.600 I'm talking about the work you're doing on this project. 650 00:44:42.780 --> 00:44:45.220 I understand. Normally about once a month. 651 00:44:45.500 --> 00:44:51.660 And from 1972 until today, when you submit bills to Johns-Manville 652 00:44:51.660 --> 00:44:56.380 for the work you're doing for it on this project, to whom do you submit the bills? 653 00:44:56.980 --> 00:44:58.500 Dr. Jerry Chase. 654 00:44:59.540 --> 00:45:01.260 And at what facility is he located? 655 00:45:01.640 --> 00:45:05.100 He's at the World Headquarters in Denver. 656 00:45:05.100 --> 00:45:11.160 Denver. And when you submit bills to Johns-Manville for the work you're doing for Johns 657 00:45:11.160 --> 00:45:14.300 Manville in the asbestos litigation, to whom do you submit the bills? 658 00:45:14.540 --> 00:45:18.500 To Mr. Dennis Markeson. And Mr. 659 00:45:18.620 --> 00:45:20.600 Markeson is corporate legal at 660 00:45:20.600 --> 00:45:21.840 World Headquarters? Yes, sir. 661 00:45:22.140 --> 00:45:26.340 And how often do you submit bills to Johns-Manville for the work that you're doing for 662 00:45:26.340 --> 00:45:30.540 them in the asbestos litigation? Well, I submit a bill to Mr. 663 00:45:30.780 --> 00:45:31.780 Markeson 664 00:45:31.260 --> 00:45:34.960 whenever I'm active in testimony. 665 00:45:35.140 --> 00:45:39.100 I don't normally charge any time for reading depositions 666 00:45:39.100 --> 00:45:42.620 or doing any work in the office. 667 00:45:42.880 --> 00:45:47.660 My only charges to Mr. Markison are those for being 668 00:45:47.660 --> 00:45:50.000 out of the office. 669 00:45:51.160 --> 00:45:55.680 When approximately was the first time that you testified for Johns-Manville 670 00:45:55.680 --> 00:45:58.440 in an asbestos-related manner? Approximately what year? 671 00:45:58.440 --> 00:46:04.390 don't recall the year but it was a it was 672 00:46:04.390 --> 00:46:10.560 a Beaumont Texas case was this while 673 00:46:10.560 --> 00:46:16.640 you were still a full-time employee with Johns-Manville yes sir it was sometime 674 00:46:16.640 --> 00:46:22.320 in approximately 1971 or 72 that would be approximately the time 675 00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:24.380 and that was 676 00:46:24.380 --> 00:46:28.420 essentially the first time that you were placed in the Roth and gave testimony on 677 00:46:28.420 --> 00:46:31.760 the especialist litigation on behalf of Johns-Manville yes sir and you've been 678 00:46:31.760 --> 00:46:34.880 doing that since from 1971 or up until today? 679 00:46:35.100 --> 00:46:36.100 Yes, sir. 680 00:46:37.300 --> 00:46:42.860 You've testified that you, in 1972, became an occupational 681 00:46:42.860 --> 00:46:44.560 health consultant. Do you 682 00:46:44.560 --> 00:46:49.840 recall the testimony that I'm talking about? That was my title in John's memo, 683 00:46:49.980 --> 00:46:50.980 yes, sir. 684 00:46:50.840 --> 00:46:55.100 And you've testified that today that is the title that you go by, an occupational health 685 00:46:55.100 --> 00:46:56.480 consultant. Yes, sir. 686 00:46:56.480 --> 00:47:01.020 Now, have you ever been licensed by any state or governmental bureau as an 687 00:47:01.020 --> 00:47:02.300 occupational health consultant? 688 00:47:02.680 --> 00:47:03.680 No, sir. 689 00:47:03.460 --> 00:47:08.840 Have you ever been licensed by any state or governmental bureau as any form of an 690 00:47:08.840 --> 00:47:10.120 occupational health specialist? 691 00:47:13.880 --> 00:47:16.460 No, sir. I know of no such licensing. 692 00:47:16.920 --> 00:47:22.600 Have you ever received any kind of certificate from any 693 00:47:22.600 --> 00:47:26.580 institution as any form of an occupational health specialist? 694 00:47:28.080 --> 00:47:33.580 Yes, sir. I am a registered professional 695 00:47:33.580 --> 00:47:37.180 safety engineer with the American Society of Safety 696 00:47:37.180 --> 00:47:38.180 Engineers. 697 00:47:38.440 --> 00:47:42.340 How did you go about becoming a member of that particular society, Mr. 698 00:47:42.440 --> 00:47:43.440 Shetland? 699 00:47:43.200 --> 00:47:48.340 I applied for membership in that society back in the early 1950s. 700 00:47:48.840 --> 00:47:54.900 So in the early 1950s, you applied for membership in this organization and they sent 701 00:47:54.900 --> 00:47:58.520 you back something indicating that you were accepted as a member i was accepted as 702 00:47:58.520 --> 00:47:59.520 a junior 703 00:47:59.140 --> 00:48:04.260 member in the organization and you remained in an organization until this date i 704 00:48:04.260 --> 00:48:05.260 have yes sir 705 00:48:05.840 --> 00:48:11.320 now have you received any kind of a certificate from any 706 00:48:11.320 --> 00:48:13.180 educational institution in the united 707 00:48:13.180 --> 00:48:17.920 states indicating that you have any specialty in the area of occupational health no 708 00:48:20.160 --> 00:48:21.160 sir did 709 00:48:24.880 --> 00:48:26.040 did you receive any college 710 00:48:26.960 --> 00:48:30.360 courses or classes in the area of occupational health 711 00:48:33.390 --> 00:48:34.390 no college 712 00:48:35.170 --> 00:48:36.430 courses or classes 713 00:48:36.430 --> 00:48:40.550 i don't perhaps understand what you mean by college 714 00:48:41.970 --> 00:48:45.530 you have testified in the past under oath 715 00:48:45.530 --> 00:48:46.590 on at least 716 00:48:46.930 --> 00:48:50.450 three or more occasions that you received a bachelor of science degree 717 00:48:50.450 --> 00:48:52.170 from rutgers university did you not 718 00:48:52.170 --> 00:48:55.980 did you not so testify in the past 719 00:48:55.980 --> 00:49:01.700 I testified to that fact at least on one occasion, but I certainly 720 00:49:01.700 --> 00:49:04.160 don't agree with your testimony 721 00:49:04.160 --> 00:49:05.380 of three occasions. 722 00:49:05.840 --> 00:49:06.840 Well, for 723 00:49:10.880 --> 00:49:16.880 the sake of brevity, you have testified under oath in 724 00:49:16.880 --> 00:49:17.900 the past that you received a 725 00:49:17.900 --> 00:49:19.880 Bachelor of Science degree from Rutgers University, true? 726 00:49:20.100 --> 00:49:23.080 I did that and corrected that testimony, yes, sir. 727 00:49:24.020 --> 00:49:28.320 And you testified that you received a Bachelor of Science degree from Rutgers University. 728 00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:34.040 University, you so testified at least on one occasion, August 24, 1978, in 729 00:49:34.040 --> 00:49:35.080 Kentucky, did 730 00:49:35.080 --> 00:49:36.080 you not? 731 00:49:35.580 --> 00:49:36.580 I did, yes, sir. 732 00:49:36.620 --> 00:49:40.740 And you had testified on at least two prior occasions 733 00:49:40.740 --> 00:49:43.260 under oath. 734 00:49:43.440 --> 00:49:48.920 I testified at least in one prior occasion to that fact that 735 00:49:50.200 --> 00:49:53.300 I recall, and the occasion 736 00:49:53.300 --> 00:50:00.580 The occasion in Kentucky that you refer to is the occasion in which I corrected the testimony. 737 00:50:26.750 --> 00:50:32.230 Mr. Sheckler, on August 24, 1978, at a videotaped deposition 738 00:50:32.230 --> 00:50:36.250 in Louisville, Kentucky, you testified 739 00:50:36.250 --> 00:50:41.730 under oath in response to a question by an attorney on behalf of the plaintiff in that 740 00:50:41.730 --> 00:50:46.370 a special litigation that you received a bachelor of science degree in engineering 741 00:50:46.370 --> 00:50:47.370 from Rutgers 742 00:50:47.010 --> 00:50:54.270 University. Is that true? I don't know. August 24th, I testified 743 00:50:57.220 --> 00:51:02.980 one day that I received a degree on videotape deposition, 744 00:51:03.240 --> 00:51:07.020 and on the following day on the 745 00:51:07.020 --> 00:51:12.740 videotape deposition, I corrected that testimony. I don't know what the specific 746 00:51:12.740 --> 00:51:13.880 dates were. 747 00:51:14.740 --> 00:51:18.160 This was in Louisville, Kentucky, yes, sir. 748 00:51:18.320 --> 00:51:24.300 Is it also true that prior to that time, you had testified on at least 749 00:51:24.300 --> 00:51:25.300 two prior 750 00:51:25.100 --> 00:51:28.820 occasions that you had received a master's degree from Rutgers University? 751 00:51:29.800 --> 00:51:35.160 I remember that. I remember testimony 752 00:51:39.380 --> 00:51:46.100 being given in Ohio, because after I realized 753 00:51:46.100 --> 00:51:52.200 the import of the error, I went back and attempted to correct it 754 00:51:52.200 --> 00:51:55.700 by writing to the various attorneys correcting it. 755 00:52:01.600 --> 00:52:04.700 Well, I'll read from the deposition of Mr. Sheckler 756 00:52:04.700 --> 00:52:08.140 taken this past Monday under the Dorothy St. Jacques v. 757 00:52:08.400 --> 00:52:09.560 Johns-Manville caption, 758 00:52:10.120 --> 00:52:14.880 case number C137465, deposition of Clifford Sheckler 759 00:52:14.880 --> 00:52:18.660 taken on behalf of plaintiffs at this office 760 00:52:20.020 --> 00:52:22.300 on Monday, January 4th, 1982. 761 00:52:23.760 --> 00:52:25.820 I'd like to read from page 56, 762 00:52:26.120 --> 00:52:31.120 page 24 through 57, 763 00:52:35.830 --> 00:52:36.830 line 10. 764 00:52:40.660 --> 00:52:41.660 Question. 765 00:52:41.500 --> 00:52:44.320 And I believe you testified that prior to that time 766 00:52:44.320 --> 00:52:47.140 you recalled testifying under oath on at least two occasions 767 00:52:47.140 --> 00:52:50.080 that you had received a bachelor's degree from Rutgers University. 768 00:52:50.380 --> 00:52:51.380 Is that true? 769 00:52:51.300 --> 00:52:53.920 And Mr. Otteson, that is what he said. 770 00:52:54.060 --> 00:52:56.120 I will stipulate that is what the record will reflect. 771 00:52:56.460 --> 00:52:57.680 Question to Mr. Sheckler. 772 00:52:57.680 --> 00:53:01.840 Is that correct? Answer. Yes, sir. Question. 773 00:53:01.960 --> 00:53:03.960 And I believe you testified that you noticed your 774 00:53:03.960 --> 00:53:07.880 mistake after the first day of a videotape deposition when you read the deposition that 775 00:53:07.880 --> 00:53:12.200 night and then corrected it the next day on the second day of the videotape deposition. 776 00:53:12.300 --> 00:53:13.300 Is that 777 00:53:12.560 --> 00:53:16.120 correct? Answer. I viewed the videotape that night. 778 00:53:16.220 --> 00:53:18.120 Yes, sir. Question. Who showed the videotape to 779 00:53:18.120 --> 00:53:21.300 you? Answer. I don't think anyone was with me, but I viewed the videotape. 780 00:53:21.380 --> 00:53:22.460 I think I asked to 781 00:53:22.460 --> 00:53:28.660 have it set up and viewed it myself if I recall. That's the end, line 14, page 57. 782 00:53:31.040 --> 00:53:32.040 Is it true, 783 00:53:32.120 --> 00:53:37.700 Mr. Sheckler, that on the first day of this videotape deposition in Kentucky in 784 00:53:37.700 --> 00:53:39.440 1978 that 785 00:53:39.440 --> 00:53:43.120 you testified that you received a bachelor's degree from Rutgers University and 786 00:53:43.120 --> 00:53:44.120 then the 787 00:53:43.360 --> 00:53:48.240 following day you stated in response to a questioning by another plaintiff's attorney 788 00:53:48.240 --> 00:53:53.920 that you did not receive a bachelor's degree that is correct yes okay 789 00:53:53.920 --> 00:53:54.920 and on 790 00:53:54.620 --> 00:53:59.660 the two prior occasions that you recall you testified also that you received a 791 00:53:59.660 --> 00:54:03.500 bachelor's degree from Rutgers University is that true yes sir I did 792 00:54:03.500 --> 00:54:09.540 and I then attempted to go back and correct that but never had any response 793 00:54:09.540 --> 00:54:13.460 from those attorneys you did not move the strike the last sentence is 794 00:54:13.460 --> 00:54:19.020 non-responsive. You did not change either of those prior deposition transcripts to reflect 795 00:54:19.020 --> 00:54:21.620 that you did not receive a degree from Rutgers University, did you? 796 00:54:21.800 --> 00:54:24.480 I had no opportunity to do that, Mr. O'Reilly. 797 00:54:24.660 --> 00:54:25.660 You did not do it? 798 00:54:25.700 --> 00:54:26.860 I did not do it, no. 799 00:54:26.860 --> 00:54:30.800 And isn't it true that you did not receive any kind of a written document, whether 800 00:54:30.800 --> 00:54:35.560 it be a certificate, diploma, or anything else from Rutgers University indicating that 801 00:54:35.560 --> 00:54:37.580 they had conferred upon you any kind of a degree? 802 00:54:37.880 --> 00:54:38.880 That's correct. 803 00:54:38.500 --> 00:54:43.940 Right. Okay. And from 804 00:54:43.940 --> 00:54:47.800 1936 to 1942, let 805 00:54:55.930 --> 00:55:00.130 me withdraw that. Just one more, maybe two more 806 00:55:00.130 --> 00:55:05.730 questions on this point. With respect to your testimony in Louisville, Kentucky, wherein 807 00:55:05.730 --> 00:55:11.370 this is in 1978, wherein one day, the first day you testified in response to a question 808 00:55:11.370 --> 00:55:15.210 by a plaintiff's attorney that you had obtained a bachelor's degree from Rutgers University 809 00:55:15.210 --> 00:55:19.450 University in 1940. You advised Mr. 810 00:55:19.670 --> 00:55:23.370 Wilson, Lively Wilson, on behalf of Johns- Manville, 811 00:55:24.550 --> 00:55:28.570 the following morning that that was incorrect, that you did not receive such a degree. 812 00:55:28.730 --> 00:55:29.730 Is 813 00:55:28.850 --> 00:55:29.850 that true? 814 00:55:29.610 --> 00:55:35.090 I did, and I told him I was going to correct it. 815 00:55:35.330 --> 00:55:39.270 Right. And then shortly after you told that to Mr. 816 00:55:39.350 --> 00:55:41.730 Wilson, Mr. Wilson began asking 817 00:55:41.730 --> 00:55:46.170 asking you questions for the videotape deposition that he was doing of you on that 818 00:55:46.170 --> 00:55:47.170 second day 819 00:55:46.690 --> 00:55:47.690 in Louisville, correct? 820 00:55:48.110 --> 00:55:50.570 Mr. Wilson handled the direct examination. 821 00:55:51.370 --> 00:55:57.430 And he started asking you the questions on direct shortly after you told him that you 822 00:55:57.430 --> 00:56:00.650 had testified erroneously the day before that you had received a bachelor's degree, true? 823 00:56:01.070 --> 00:56:03.590 Well, no, I don't think it was shortly after. 824 00:56:03.590 --> 00:56:07.840 I can't assess. 825 00:56:08.340 --> 00:56:14.100 I told Mr. Wilson what I intended to do early 826 00:56:14.100 --> 00:56:20.220 in that morning, and it was probably two hours later that the direct examination began. 827 00:56:20.780 --> 00:56:25.080 Okay. Well, then, sometime on the morning of the second day of this videotape 828 00:56:25.080 --> 00:56:27.160 deposition, before the deposition began, 829 00:56:27.400 --> 00:56:31.280 you told Mr. Lively Wilson from Johns- Manville that you did not receive a bachelor's 830 00:56:31.280 --> 00:56:32.720 degree from Rutgers University. True? 831 00:56:32.720 --> 00:56:33.720 Yes, sir. 832 00:56:33.480 --> 00:56:38.480 And sometime thereafter, the second day's deposition began, true? 833 00:56:39.100 --> 00:56:40.100 Yes, sir. 834 00:56:39.800 --> 00:56:43.980 And Mr. Wilson then began asking you questions on direct examination on behalf of 835 00:56:43.980 --> 00:56:44.980 Johns-Manville, true? 836 00:56:45.420 --> 00:56:46.460 Yes, sir. That's correct. 837 00:56:46.680 --> 00:56:50.400 And when Mr. Wilson got to the point of asking you what your educational background 838 00:56:50.400 --> 00:56:52.340 was at that deposition, 839 00:56:52.560 --> 00:56:55.580 you did not disclose that you did not receive a bachelor's degree, did you? 840 00:56:55.740 --> 00:56:58.720 I will object, Your Honor. The record will speak for itself. 841 00:57:02.480 --> 00:57:03.580 I'll read the record. 842 00:57:07.520 --> 00:57:12.240 Deposition Eastern United States District Court for the Eastern District of Tennessee 843 00:57:12.240 --> 00:57:17.800 Southern Division of Tennessee cases under the caption of Claude Ray Damewood, D-A 844 00:57:17.800 --> 00:57:19.300 -M-E-W-O-O-D 845 00:57:19.300 --> 00:57:24.660 et al. v. Johns-Manville Sales Corporation, the Damund 846 00:57:24.660 --> 00:57:30.380 case number, number 1-78-170, deposition 847 00:57:30.380 --> 00:57:34.940 of Clifford L. Sheckler taken by defendant Johns-Manville Sales 848 00:57:34.940 --> 00:57:40.200 Corporation Louisville Kentucky August 25th 1978 direct 849 00:57:44.610 --> 00:57:46.130 examination starts on 850 00:57:46.130 --> 00:57:48.850 page six by Mr. Wilson what's 851 00:57:52.080 --> 00:57:56.120 the first three pages are colloquy between counsel 852 00:57:56.120 --> 00:58:00.640 and the questioning begins on page eight I will read page 853 00:58:03.110 --> 00:58:05.510 10 where on page on 854 00:58:05.510 --> 00:58:10.890 lines 9 through 17 Mr. Wilson inquires about Mr. 855 00:58:10.990 --> 00:58:11.990 Sheckler's educational 856 00:58:11.710 --> 00:58:13.350 background question 857 00:58:33.700 --> 00:58:37.700 first mr. Sheckler what was your what is your educational 858 00:58:37.700 --> 00:58:42.380 background answer I attended Rutgers University construction engineering I 859 00:58:42.380 --> 00:58:47.220 was in the Bachelor of Science program I finished school in 1940 question all 860 00:58:47.220 --> 00:58:51.140 right sir and did you go to work for Johns-Manville at that time answer I 861 00:58:51.140 --> 00:58:56.060 went to work for Johns-Manville before finishing school in 1936 yes question 862 00:59:00.080 --> 00:59:03.440 all right give us the benefit of your work experience at Johns-Manville please 863 00:59:03.440 --> 00:59:08.700 answer. From 1936 to 1942, I was employed in the engineering department of Johns 864 00:59:08.700 --> 00:59:12.900 Manville. From 1942 to 1946, I served in the armed services. 865 00:59:13.260 --> 00:59:14.520 I returned to Johns 866 00:59:14.520 --> 00:59:19.060 Manville in 1946 as construction supervisor at the Manville complex to 867 00:59:19.060 --> 00:59:25.000 1952. I became safety engineer for the Manville complex from 1952 868 00:59:25.000 --> 00:59:26.000 to 1957, 869 00:59:26.120 --> 00:59:31.560 supervisor of safety and health for the Manville complex from 1957 to 1959, and 870 00:59:31.560 --> 00:59:37.220 and manager of safety and health for the corporation from 1959 to 1968 and director 871 00:59:37.220 --> 00:59:38.220 of safety and 872 00:59:38.020 --> 00:59:40.660 health for the corporation from 1968 to 72. 873 00:59:45.290 --> 00:59:49.230 That ends at page 11, line 5. 874 01:00:06.910 --> 01:00:12.170 From 1936 until 1942, you served as 875 01:00:12.170 --> 01:00:16.850 a surveyor for construction, new construction for Johns 876 01:00:16.850 --> 01:00:18.570 Manville at the Manville facility? 877 01:00:19.010 --> 01:00:20.010 Yes, sir. 878 01:00:19.870 --> 01:00:20.870 Right. 879 01:00:19.990 --> 01:00:25.410 at the Manville facility I did survey work and 880 01:00:25.410 --> 01:00:29.230 acted as a liaison between the 881 01:00:29.230 --> 01:00:33.590 Johns-Manville engineering department and the contractors who were 882 01:00:35.110 --> 01:00:40.610 constructing the new facilities at that location so the new construction that 883 01:00:40.610 --> 01:00:45.190 you were working with or in conjunction with was construction that was being 884 01:00:45.190 --> 01:00:50.410 performed by outside contractors at the manville facility true from 885 01:00:50.410 --> 01:00:53.470 1936 to 1942 that is true 886 01:00:53.470 --> 01:00:58.610 the people that were actually doing the construction work were not employees of john's 887 01:00:58.610 --> 01:01:04.290 manville from 1936 to 1942. that is correct and then from 888 01:01:04.290 --> 01:01:08.530 1946 to 1952 you were supervisor of 889 01:01:08.530 --> 01:01:12.950 construction for Johns-Manville. True. At the Manville, New Jersey, complex. 890 01:01:13.530 --> 01:01:15.270 And the people 891 01:01:15.270 --> 01:01:19.950 that were doing the construction work during that period of time from 1946 to 1952, 892 01:01:20.050 --> 01:01:21.230 they were Johns 893 01:01:21.230 --> 01:01:27.170 Manville employees. True. Yes, sir. And in 1952, you became safety 894 01:01:27.170 --> 01:01:28.550 engineer for the Manville complex. 895 01:01:28.930 --> 01:01:32.890 True. That is correct. Yes, sir. You served in that capacity until 1957. 896 01:01:33.350 --> 01:01:35.690 Yes, sir. 1957 you became 897 01:01:35.690 --> 01:01:40.170 supervisor of safety for the Manville complex true yes sir served in that 898 01:01:40.170 --> 01:01:45.910 capacity until approximately 1959 well 59 early 60 there was a transition 899 01:01:45.910 --> 01:01:49.750 period there of several months back and forth from 900 01:01:51.090 --> 01:01:56.830 1936 until 1942 you knew that 901 01:01:56.830 --> 01:02:01.110 asbestos fiber was being used at the Manville complex in manufacturing 902 01:02:01.110 --> 01:02:06.810 products did you not I did yes sir and the total of your 903 01:02:06.810 --> 01:02:07.890 knowledge of the 904 01:02:07.890 --> 01:02:13.030 disease-causing propensities of asbestos fibers during those six years was that 905 01:02:13.030 --> 01:02:18.310 asbestos fibers could cause lung disease upon inhalation is that true my 906 01:02:25.190 --> 01:02:30.930 knowledge of asbestos fiber in those days as I recall 907 01:02:30.930 --> 01:02:35.090 was that asbestos fiber 908 01:02:35.090 --> 01:02:37.990 was a toxic material is 909 01:02:43.500 --> 01:02:47.000 that essentially what your knowledge of the disease 910 01:02:47.000 --> 01:02:51.800 causing propensities of asbestos fibers was during those six years 1936 to 1942 911 01:02:51.800 --> 01:02:56.160 that asbestos fiber was a toxic substance I think essentially that's 912 01:02:56.160 --> 01:03:01.980 that's the answer from 1946 until 1952 when you became safety 913 01:03:01.980 --> 01:03:03.160 engineer you 914 01:03:03.160 --> 01:03:07.080 essentially had the same knowledge of the disease causing propensities of 915 01:03:07.080 --> 01:03:13.060 asbestos fibers isn't that true yes sir you still knew basically that asbestos 916 01:03:13.060 --> 01:03:14.060 fiber was a toxic 917 01:03:14.040 --> 01:03:19.020 substance yes sir okay and that essentially comprised your knowledge of the disease 918 01:03:19.020 --> 01:03:23.040 processes that could be induced by asbestos fiber and the circumstances and so on 919 01:03:23.040 --> 01:03:24.040 is that true 920 01:03:24.940 --> 01:03:31.240 i'm sorry would you repeat yes sir i'm sorry and that essentially constituted the knowledge 921 01:03:31.240 --> 01:03:37.100 that you had of the disease-causing propensities of asbestos fibers from 1946 until 1952. 922 01:03:37.220 --> 01:03:40.180 That is, that asbestos fibers were toxic. 923 01:03:41.580 --> 01:03:44.820 Yes, sir. I think that's a fair statement. 924 01:03:45.040 --> 01:03:50.040 In 1952, you became safety engineer for the Manville Complex. 925 01:03:50.820 --> 01:03:54.560 Would you please, well, let me withdraw that because that was more a statement than 926 01:03:54.560 --> 01:03:55.560 a question. 927 01:03:55.140 --> 01:03:58.020 Would you please tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury 928 01:03:58.020 --> 01:04:02.800 what the Manville Complex consisted of in terms of plants, 929 01:04:03.000 --> 01:04:05.160 buildings, and personnel 930 01:04:05.160 --> 01:04:08.300 when you became safety engineer in 1952. 931 01:04:08.780 --> 01:04:09.780 Yes, sir. 932 01:04:10.240 --> 01:04:15.780 Manville Complex consisted of a production plant on 933 01:04:15.780 --> 01:04:18.160 one side of a river 934 01:04:18.160 --> 01:04:23.940 and a research center and data processing center on the 935 01:04:23.940 --> 01:04:25.240 other side of the river. 936 01:04:25.240 --> 01:04:31.000 the river divided the two installations. The production plant 937 01:04:31.000 --> 01:04:32.340 covered 938 01:04:38.830 --> 01:04:42.350 a substantial amount 939 01:04:42.350 --> 01:04:48.090 of ground. I don't know how many acres, roughly, but it was 940 01:04:48.090 --> 01:04:51.810 a big plant. Consisted of approximately 941 01:04:51.810 --> 01:04:53.030 approximately 12 942 01:04:58.500 --> 01:05:04.160 to 15 buildings, and the building dimensions 943 01:05:04.160 --> 01:05:07.180 each was 150 feet wide 944 01:05:08.000 --> 01:05:12.860 by some 1,000 feet long, some 1,200 feet long. 945 01:05:13.280 --> 01:05:16.880 There was about 13 to 15 miles of railroad 946 01:05:16.880 --> 01:05:20.800 railroad within the plant location. There was approximately 947 01:05:20.800 --> 01:05:25.160 10 miles of road surface 948 01:05:25.160 --> 01:05:30.080 within the plant, and the plant 949 01:05:30.080 --> 01:05:36.360 and the research center, data processing center, totally employed 950 01:05:36.360 --> 01:05:40.780 in in the years from 951 01:05:40.780 --> 01:05:44.040 1951 952 01:05:45.960 --> 01:05:51.920 through 1960 employed approximately 953 01:05:51.920 --> 01:05:56.640 five six thousand 954 01:05:56.640 --> 01:06:01.320 people more or less divert 955 01:06:03.850 --> 01:06:08.210 a can you give us a description of the kind of 956 01:06:08.210 --> 01:06:14.750 of buildings that were on this Manville complex from 1952 to 1960. 957 01:06:15.050 --> 01:06:16.170 That is, you had a power 958 01:06:16.170 --> 01:06:17.170 plant. 959 01:06:18.580 --> 01:06:20.720 I'll go through them if you wish, sir. 960 01:06:20.800 --> 01:06:21.800 Please. 961 01:06:22.040 --> 01:06:27.370 The first building, they were 962 01:06:27.370 --> 01:06:30.770 identified as ABCD. 963 01:06:31.030 --> 01:06:36.350 Building A was, building A1 was 964 01:06:36.350 --> 01:06:40.030 was a brake lining and clutch facing plant. 965 01:06:41.430 --> 01:06:43.070 Where, when I say plant, 966 01:06:43.210 --> 01:06:46.330 I mean the manufacturing of these products. 967 01:06:47.450 --> 01:06:50.310 Building A was a manufacturing plant 968 01:06:50.310 --> 01:06:53.270 for asbestos textile materials. 969 01:06:53.970 --> 01:06:59.190 Building B housed the plant engineering department 970 01:06:59.930 --> 01:07:05.150 and also the manufacturing processes 971 01:07:05.150 --> 01:07:08.290 for packings and friction materials. 972 01:07:10.660 --> 01:07:14.940 Building C was a manufacturing facility 973 01:07:15.460 --> 01:07:21.860 for low-temperature asbestos paper pipe covering. 974 01:07:23.160 --> 01:07:29.060 Asbestos D was a paper mill where papers were manufactured. 975 01:07:29.520 --> 01:07:32.200 You said asbestos D, and I think you meant building D. 976 01:07:32.200 --> 01:07:37.580 I'm sorry. Building D was a manufacturing process 977 01:07:37.580 --> 01:07:40.040 for paper. 978 01:07:40.300 --> 01:07:45.840 It was a paper mill that manufactured the paper for the roofing 979 01:07:45.840 --> 01:07:48.880 manufacturing operation. 980 01:07:49.340 --> 01:07:50.400 That used asbestos? 981 01:07:50.560 --> 01:07:57.640 It was an asbestos base felt material. 982 01:07:57.640 --> 01:08:02.770 material. Building E was the 983 01:08:02.770 --> 01:08:07.190 manufacturing process for thermal insulation materials. 984 01:08:07.870 --> 01:08:12.170 Building F was the manufacture of 985 01:08:12.170 --> 01:08:17.070 saturated roofing and roof shingle materials. 986 01:08:17.630 --> 01:08:18.630 Building 987 01:08:18.630 --> 01:08:24.170 Building F1 was a warehouse for saturated 988 01:08:24.170 --> 01:08:26.730 roofing and roofing materials. 989 01:08:27.170 --> 01:08:32.410 Building G was a manufacturing facility 990 01:08:32.410 --> 01:08:37.930 for black line, that is asphalt-based cements, 991 01:08:38.870 --> 01:08:44.910 bridge planking, which was an asphalt- based material used for the flooring of bridges, 992 01:08:45.390 --> 01:08:47.050 and expansion joints. 993 01:08:48.630 --> 01:08:54.790 Building H was a manufacturing facility for the manufacture of rigid shingles, 994 01:08:54.990 --> 01:09:00.930 material corrugated asbestos and flat asbestos 995 01:09:00.930 --> 01:09:02.870 sheets, asbestos cement sheets. 996 01:09:03.190 --> 01:09:06.170 That entire building was an asbestos cement operation. 997 01:09:07.770 --> 01:09:12.830 Building I was a manufacturing facility for 998 01:09:12.830 --> 01:09:16.390 asbestos cement pipe. 999 01:09:20.360 --> 01:09:25.780 T was a manufacturing facility for flooring materials, 1000 01:09:26.200 --> 01:09:28.560 floor tile and other flooring materials. 1001 01:09:28.940 --> 01:09:30.440 Asbestos-containing floor tiling? 1002 01:09:30.740 --> 01:09:33.360 Asbestos-containing floor tile, yes, sir. 1003 01:09:34.040 --> 01:09:38.940 RW was 1004 01:09:38.940 --> 01:09:44.840 initially a building for the manufacture of rock wool and 1005 01:09:44.840 --> 01:09:47.900 later a warehouse. 1006 01:09:47.900 --> 01:09:53.200 house. Building EP was an experimental building 1007 01:09:53.200 --> 01:09:58.580 used for experimental rock-wool production 1008 01:09:58.600 --> 01:10:03.100 and later experimental production of ceramic fiber. 1009 01:10:03.300 --> 01:10:09.100 It was a full-size 1010 01:10:09.100 --> 01:10:12.640 powerhouse that 1011 01:10:12.640 --> 01:10:17.080 that furnished both electric and steam for the entire complex. 1012 01:10:18.460 --> 01:10:23.200 And then on the other side of the river, 1013 01:10:24.200 --> 01:10:28.640 the research center was housed in one U-shaped building. 1014 01:10:28.820 --> 01:10:34.760 The data processing center was separated from that in a 1015 01:10:34.760 --> 01:10:35.760 separate building. 1016 01:10:36.320 --> 01:10:41.340 Did the approximately 12 miles of railroad connect all these facilities 1017 01:10:41.340 --> 01:10:45.700 in both the Manville complex and across the river in Finderne, the research center? 1018 01:10:45.980 --> 01:10:51.980 No, no. The railroad connected 1019 01:10:51.980 --> 01:10:53.960 to the Lehigh Valley Railroad, 1020 01:10:55.100 --> 01:11:00.120 connected to the Lehigh Valley Main Line Railroad, 1021 01:11:00.120 --> 01:11:05.900 and ran spurs into either side 1022 01:11:05.900 --> 01:11:09.200 of each building for loading and unloading boxcars. 1023 01:11:09.200 --> 01:11:11.340 This would be on the Manville complex? 1024 01:11:11.620 --> 01:11:17.060 In the Manville complex, and then of course there was also a spur into the powerhouse 1025 01:11:17.060 --> 01:11:18.220 for unloading coal. 1026 01:11:18.580 --> 01:11:24.910 Would you tell, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, what your responsibilities were 1027 01:11:25.440 --> 01:11:30.450 as safety engineer in 1952 when you went into that position? 1028 01:11:30.930 --> 01:11:36.390 My responsibilities as safety engineer when I went into that position was 1029 01:11:36.390 --> 01:11:37.990 to, one, 1030 01:11:37.990 --> 01:11:43.950 One, revise and initiate new 1031 01:11:43.950 --> 01:11:47.310 safety programs for that location. 1032 01:11:47.590 --> 01:11:52.130 Two, to administer the safety program for that location. 1033 01:11:52.730 --> 01:11:57.990 And three, to assist my 1034 01:11:57.990 --> 01:12:03.290 immediate supervisor in the handling of 1035 01:12:03.290 --> 01:12:06.810 workman's compensation as designated by him. 1036 01:12:07.990 --> 01:12:13.990 Now, when you became safety engineer for that complex in 1952, 1037 01:12:14.090 --> 01:12:17.130 there was one other person, a Mr. 1038 01:12:17.310 --> 01:12:20.010 Stanton, who was the supervisor of safety. Is that true? 1039 01:12:20.190 --> 01:12:23.470 Mr. Stanton was supervisor of safety at that time, yes. 1040 01:12:23.490 --> 01:12:27.110 And from 1952 until 1957, you and Mr. 1041 01:12:27.150 --> 01:12:30.810 Stanton constituted the safety department at the Manville complex. 1042 01:12:30.930 --> 01:12:31.930 Is that true? 1043 01:12:32.550 --> 01:12:36.950 Along with two girls, two secretaries. 1044 01:12:37.990 --> 01:12:42.530 And then when Mr. Stanton left in 1957, you took his job as supervisor of safety 1045 01:12:42.530 --> 01:12:43.990 until 1959 or 60? 1046 01:12:44.270 --> 01:12:45.270 I did, yes, sir. 1047 01:12:47.170 --> 01:12:52.710 Now, would you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what classroom education 1048 01:12:52.710 --> 01:12:57.790 you had received up until 1952 in the area of medicine? 1049 01:12:59.270 --> 01:13:04.330 I received no classroom education in the area of medicine up to 1952. 1050 01:13:04.330 --> 01:13:10.190 Would you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what classroom education you had 1051 01:13:10.190 --> 01:13:16.250 received in the area of safety when you became safety engineer in 1952? 1052 01:13:16.750 --> 01:13:20.830 As a supervisor of construction, 1053 01:13:21.510 --> 01:13:26.990 I was exposed to courses 1054 01:13:26.990 --> 01:13:29.170 provided by Johns-Manville, 1055 01:13:29.170 --> 01:13:34.370 well, and those courses included some 1056 01:13:34.370 --> 01:13:37.870 courses in occupational safety. 1057 01:13:38.370 --> 01:13:43.550 You had no educational, I mean, I'm sorry, you had no academic or college-type training 1058 01:13:43.550 --> 01:13:48.150 or education in the area of safety, did you, in 1952? 1059 01:13:48.630 --> 01:13:49.630 No, sir. 1060 01:13:49.050 --> 01:13:53.770 That type of college training in those days was unavailable. 1061 01:13:56.490 --> 01:14:02.970 unavailable moved to strike everything after no sir is not responsive did you 1062 01:14:02.970 --> 01:14:08.730 have any classroom training or education in any of the health 1063 01:14:08.730 --> 01:14:10.150 sciences or health 1064 01:14:10.150 --> 01:14:15.050 services field when you were appointed safety engineer at the Manville complex 1065 01:14:15.050 --> 01:14:21.050 in 1952 no sir and this in-house training that you're 1066 01:14:21.050 --> 01:14:22.050 talking about that 1067 01:14:21.830 --> 01:14:26.850 you received from Johns-Manville from 1946 to 1952. 1068 01:14:27.090 --> 01:14:29.930 Did that consist of sessions wherein 1069 01:14:30.750 --> 01:14:35.750 you discussed, along with other Manville employees, certain aspects of traumatic 1070 01:14:35.750 --> 01:14:36.810 injuries like 1071 01:14:36.810 --> 01:14:41.430 slipping and falling on the job site, having your head hit because you weren't wearing 1072 01:14:41.430 --> 01:14:45.650 a helmet, that kind of thing? The sessions were presented by, 1073 01:14:45.810 --> 01:14:49.190 were presented 1074 01:14:49.190 --> 01:14:54.170 formally by a director of training, and they 1075 01:14:54.170 --> 01:14:59.310 did, at that time, 1076 01:14:59.390 --> 01:15:01.750 now we're talking up to 1077 01:15:01.750 --> 01:15:04.690 1952, is that your time period, sir? 1078 01:15:04.750 --> 01:15:05.750 Yes, sir. 1079 01:15:06.350 --> 01:15:11.250 Up to 1952, the sessions that I was exposed to were primarily 1080 01:15:11.250 --> 01:15:13.950 concerned with 1081 01:15:13.950 --> 01:15:15.130 traumatic injuries. 1082 01:15:15.130 --> 01:15:19.830 And by traumatic injuries, you mean injuries that a person suffers as a result of 1083 01:15:19.830 --> 01:15:22.510 receiving a blow to some part of the body? 1084 01:15:22.870 --> 01:15:24.930 Or falling, or, yes, sir. 1085 01:15:25.030 --> 01:15:31.030 Now, at any time up until 1952 when you became safety engineer, did 1086 01:15:31.030 --> 01:15:36.190 you receive any kind of courses or training at Johns-Manville, 1087 01:15:36.330 --> 01:15:41.350 from anyone at Johns-Manville, that dealt with occupationally related lung diseases? 1088 01:15:42.430 --> 01:15:45.210 Not up to 1952, no, sir. 1089 01:15:45.310 --> 01:15:49.410 Had you received any kind of courses or training in the area of the pneumoconiosis? 1090 01:15:50.210 --> 01:15:52.670 Not up to 1952, no, sir. 1091 01:16:00.060 --> 01:16:04.500 You became a safety engineer in 1952. 1092 01:16:05.620 --> 01:16:11.540 You were responsible for ensuring that 1093 01:16:11.540 --> 01:16:12.800 a safety program 1094 01:16:12.800 --> 01:16:17.060 that covered all employees at that complex was administered properly. 1095 01:16:17.280 --> 01:16:18.280 Is that true? 1096 01:16:17.780 --> 01:16:22.740 that's correct yes sir and you had responsibility for ensuring 1097 01:16:22.740 --> 01:16:25.560 let me withdraw that question it was 1098 01:16:25.560 --> 01:16:30.360 also your responsibility to recommend changes in the safety program as you saw 1099 01:16:30.360 --> 01:16:31.360 necessary is 1100 01:16:31.360 --> 01:16:37.220 that true that is true yes sir and you were aware in 1952 1101 01:16:37.220 --> 01:16:41.620 that many of the J-M let me rephrase that 1102 01:16:41.620 --> 01:16:46.200 you were aware in 1952 and you became safety engineer that many of the employees 1103 01:16:46.200 --> 01:16:47.200 that worked 1104 01:16:47.100 --> 01:16:52.920 at the Manville complex were exposed to asbestos fibers in their 1105 01:16:52.920 --> 01:16:53.920 work is that 1106 01:16:53.740 --> 01:16:59.680 true I don't understand your terminology exposed would 1107 01:16:59.680 --> 01:17:01.760 you clarify that you knew 1108 01:17:01.760 --> 01:17:07.040 in 1952 when you became safety engineer at the Manville complex that asbestos 1109 01:17:07.040 --> 01:17:11.960 fibers were being used in a number of the manufacturing processes that is 1110 01:17:11.960 --> 01:17:17.720 correct yes sir and you knew that the manufacturing processes 1111 01:17:17.720 --> 01:17:18.920 were such that 1112 01:17:18.920 --> 01:17:24.740 there was constant airborne asbestos fiber is that true that's not true 1113 01:17:24.740 --> 01:17:29.920 necessarily no sir well were you aware in 1952 when you became safety engineer 1114 01:17:29.920 --> 01:17:36.480 that many of the employees at the Manville facility were inhaling asbestos 1115 01:17:36.480 --> 01:17:42.420 fibers in their work i was not aware of that no sir did you find that 1116 01:17:42.420 --> 01:17:43.940 out sometime between 1952 1117 01:17:43.940 --> 01:17:49.910 and 1957 no sir well did you were they is 1118 01:17:49.910 --> 01:17:52.250 it your testimony that the employees at the manville 1119 01:17:52.250 --> 01:17:57.510 facility between 1952 and 1957 were not inhaling asbestos fibers at their work 1120 01:17:57.510 --> 01:17:59.710 i mean i would 1121 01:17:59.710 --> 01:18:03.550 object as big i would try the question i would try the question when you became 1122 01:18:03.550 --> 01:18:04.550 safety engineer 1123 01:18:04.470 --> 01:18:10.070 in 1952 was it your understanding that the safety program 1124 01:18:10.070 --> 01:18:13.170 was such that it had 1125 01:18:13.170 --> 01:18:17.410 to be designed to protect all the Manville employees from occupationally 1126 01:18:17.410 --> 01:18:23.250 induced lung disease well the safety program of the manual 1127 01:18:23.250 --> 01:18:25.530 complex was 1128 01:18:27.290 --> 01:18:30.190 designed to employees 1129 01:18:34.130 --> 01:18:39.190 from any types of injuries that might occur one 1130 01:18:41.970 --> 01:18:42.970 aspect of 1131 01:18:42.810 --> 01:18:48.530 the safety program that was in effect in 1952 was designed to protect all employees 1132 01:18:48.530 --> 01:18:49.530 from the 1133 01:18:49.070 --> 01:18:55.070 inhalation of asbestos fibers is that true no sir 1134 01:18:55.070 --> 01:18:57.490 that's not true that's uh 1135 01:19:06.000 --> 01:19:08.100 is it correct mr 1136 01:19:08.100 --> 01:19:13.800 sheckler that you have been named as an individual defendant along with johns 1137 01:19:13.800 --> 01:19:15.000 manville in asbestos 1138 01:19:15.000 --> 01:19:18.500 litigation by certain plaintiffs in the state of new jersey and a couple other 1139 01:19:18.500 --> 01:19:20.120 states yes sir that 1140 01:19:20.120 --> 01:19:21.120 That is correct. 1141 01:19:21.020 --> 01:19:24.840 And is it true that Johns-Manville has provided you with counsel 1142 01:19:24.840 --> 01:19:27.180 to represent you in those proceedings? 1143 01:19:27.840 --> 01:19:28.840 Yes, sir. 1144 01:19:28.640 --> 01:19:33.200 And is it true that the counsel, the law firm that represents you in those proceedings 1145 01:19:33.200 --> 01:19:36.520 also represents Johns-Manville, and particularly Mr. Gross in New Jersey? 1146 01:19:37.500 --> 01:19:42.640 Mr. Gross's law firm represents Johns- Manville as well, yes, sir. 1147 01:19:42.740 --> 01:19:43.740 As well as you? 1148 01:19:44.000 --> 01:19:45.000 Yes, sir. 1149 01:19:44.740 --> 01:19:48.480 And is it true that Johns-Manville provided you with an indemnity agreement 1150 01:19:48.480 --> 01:19:52.420 whereby they promised you that they would indemnify you for any legal fees 1151 01:19:52.420 --> 01:19:54.740 or judgments rendered against you in that litigation? 1152 01:19:55.240 --> 01:19:57.800 As an employee, that is true, yes, sir. 1153 01:19:59.180 --> 01:20:04.960 When you became safety engineer in 1952, did the 1154 01:20:04.960 --> 01:20:05.960 Manville facility 1155 01:20:06.480 --> 01:20:11.720 have any part of the safety program directed towards protecting the employees 1156 01:20:12.600 --> 01:20:17.900 against diseases that occurred from the inhalation of asbestos fibers? 1157 01:20:17.900 --> 01:20:19.140 Yes, sir. 1158 01:20:39.920 --> 01:20:45.580 It was one of your responsibilities to recommend changes in that safety program 1159 01:20:45.580 --> 01:20:49.080 that dealt with protecting people from diseases caused by the inhalation of 1160 01:20:49.080 --> 01:20:50.080 asbestos fibers 1161 01:20:50.260 --> 01:20:53.120 if you thought the program was not effective. 1162 01:20:53.360 --> 01:20:54.360 Is that true? 1163 01:20:56.340 --> 01:21:00.580 It was one of my responsibilities to make recommendations in the safety program 1164 01:21:00.580 --> 01:21:04.960 for any reason that I thought that it wasn't effective 1165 01:21:06.560 --> 01:21:08.980 in conjunction with prevention of 1166 01:21:08.980 --> 01:21:14.840 it was in conjunction with injury prevention it was it part of your 1167 01:21:14.840 --> 01:21:19.900 responsibility then to ensure that the safety program in so far as it dealt 1168 01:21:19.900 --> 01:21:25.840 with the prevention of disease caused by the inhalation of asbestos fibers was 1169 01:21:25.840 --> 01:21:31.660 effective in protecting the employees it was my part of it was 1170 01:21:31.660 --> 01:21:32.700 my responsibility 1171 01:21:32.700 --> 01:21:37.540 to administer the safety program that's 1172 01:21:39.300 --> 01:21:43.370 but we left the tape for a moment sir 1173 01:21:43.370 --> 01:21:46.690 was a 1174 01:21:53.280 --> 01:21:57.220 part of your responsibility then to ensure that the safety program insofar 1175 01:21:57.220 --> 01:22:01.300 as it dealt with the prevention of disease caused by the inhalation of 1176 01:22:01.300 --> 01:22:04.640 asbestos fibers was effective in protecting the employees 1177 01:22:08.390 --> 01:22:12.210 objection on vague and ambiguous with regard to the word insurer 1178 01:22:14.350 --> 01:22:17.170 favorite words and has some problems i 1179 01:22:24.790 --> 01:22:28.050 would phrase it yes sir was 1180 01:22:35.920 --> 01:22:37.260 it part of your responsibility 1181 01:22:37.580 --> 01:22:43.180 to determine that the safety program insofar as it dealt with 1182 01:22:43.180 --> 01:22:45.040 protecting employees from disease 1183 01:22:45.040 --> 01:22:48.380 against asbestos inhalation was effective it 1184 01:22:51.450 --> 01:22:54.410 was part of my responsibility to evaluate the 1185 01:22:54.410 --> 01:23:00.050 effectiveness of that program right and your responsibility in the area of recommending 1186 01:23:00.050 --> 01:23:05.990 changes in the safety program extended to that part of the safety program that 1187 01:23:05.990 --> 01:23:10.670 was designed to protect employees from disease through inhalation of asbestos 1188 01:23:10.670 --> 01:23:14.770 fiber is that true that was part of the 1189 01:23:14.770 --> 01:23:20.710 yes that's true is it true that when you 1190 01:23:20.710 --> 01:23:26.550 became safety engineer in 1952 you knew 1191 01:23:26.550 --> 01:23:30.310 that asbestos fibers were toxic yes sir 1192 01:23:30.310 --> 01:23:36.050 that's true and is it true when you became safety engineer in 1952 that the 1193 01:23:36.050 --> 01:23:38.010 safety program in so far 1194 01:23:38.010 --> 01:23:42.650 as it dealt with protecting employees from disease through the inhalation of 1195 01:23:42.650 --> 01:23:43.650 asbestos fibers 1196 01:23:44.190 --> 01:23:48.030 extended to all the employees at the manville facility and 1197 01:23:54.370 --> 01:23:58.590 is it true that in 1952 1198 01:23:58.590 --> 01:24:03.450 the manville facility had a medical program 1199 01:24:03.450 --> 01:24:08.830 for employees yes sir and is it true that this medical 1200 01:24:08.830 --> 01:24:12.410 program for employees at the manville facility a 1201 01:24:17.430 --> 01:24:20.550 chest x-ray as a routine every two years 1202 01:24:20.550 --> 01:24:26.390 for all employees a couple exceptions that i'll get 1203 01:24:26.390 --> 01:24:28.170 into in the next line of questioning 1204 01:24:29.570 --> 01:24:35.330 yes sir the the chest x-ray program was part of a physical examination program 1205 01:24:35.330 --> 01:24:36.690 yes sir and the 1206 01:24:36.690 --> 01:24:42.430 chest x-ray program was such at that time 1952 that as a general matter 1207 01:24:42.430 --> 01:24:43.870 all employees received 1208 01:24:43.870 --> 01:24:49.870 a chest x-ray every two years that's correct and the employees that 1209 01:24:49.870 --> 01:24:51.810 were included in this chest x-ray 1210 01:24:51.810 --> 01:24:57.190 program, wherein they received a chest x-ray every two years, 1211 01:24:57.310 --> 01:24:59.310 were production line employees 1212 01:24:59.310 --> 01:25:03.010 that worked with asbestos fibers eight hours a day, directly. 1213 01:25:03.230 --> 01:25:06.720 Is that true? That was one 1214 01:25:06.720 --> 01:25:09.540 group of employees included? That was one group, yes, sir. 1215 01:25:09.920 --> 01:25:14.680 Another group of employees included in this chest x-ray program, wherein they received 1216 01:25:14.680 --> 01:25:20.640 a chest x-ray as a routine every two years, consisted of office personnel, clerks, secretaries, 1217 01:25:20.640 --> 01:25:23.660 so forth, correct? Yes, sir. 1218 01:25:23.680 --> 01:25:26.960 They were part of the physical examination program. And they received 1219 01:25:26.960 --> 01:25:31.060 as a routine, as part of the medical program, a chest x-ray every two years, along 1220 01:25:31.060 --> 01:25:32.060 with the 1221 01:25:31.400 --> 01:25:37.100 production workers? That's correct. In addition, the employees 1222 01:25:37.100 --> 01:25:40.080 that were to receive a chest x-ray 1223 01:25:40.080 --> 01:25:45.080 as a routine every two years also included the security forces, the guards, and so on. 1224 01:25:45.100 --> 01:25:46.100 Is that 1225 01:25:45.280 --> 01:25:51.170 true yes sir they were part of 1226 01:25:51.170 --> 01:25:54.890 the employee population included maintenance personnel 1227 01:25:55.510 --> 01:26:01.410 yes sir did it include 1228 01:26:01.410 --> 01:26:06.130 the pipe covers and insulators that worked in the construction 1229 01:26:06.130 --> 01:26:09.830 department at the manville facility yeah i'm gonna check this thing he said it 1230 01:26:09.830 --> 01:26:10.830 included everybody 1231 01:26:10.450 --> 01:26:12.890 i want to be sure 1232 01:26:12.890 --> 01:26:17.910 You're a very repetitive guy. I gather you're objective. 1233 01:26:18.270 --> 01:26:19.270 I am, Your Honor. 1234 01:26:43.850 --> 01:26:49.770 Did the construction department that you supervised from 1235 01:26:49.770 --> 01:26:51.890 1946 to 1952 1236 01:26:52.670 --> 01:26:56.830 still exist at the Manville complex from 1952 to 1959? 1237 01:26:57.430 --> 01:26:58.430 Yes, sir. 1238 01:26:58.510 --> 01:27:02.250 And did the construction department that worked at the Manville facility 1239 01:27:02.250 --> 01:27:08.010 facility from 1952 to 1959 include pipe covers and insulators 1240 01:27:08.010 --> 01:27:09.810 that were called masons by 1241 01:27:09.810 --> 01:27:10.810 Johns-Manville. 1242 01:27:11.090 --> 01:27:12.150 Yes, sir. 1243 01:27:12.210 --> 01:27:18.210 And these masons that were Johns-Manville employees from 1952 1244 01:27:18.210 --> 01:27:22.230 to 1959, their work 1245 01:27:22.230 --> 01:27:27.670 consisted of preparing, applying, and removing insulating materials 1246 01:27:27.670 --> 01:27:29.690 at the Manville complex, 1247 01:27:29.850 --> 01:27:30.850 true? 1248 01:27:30.050 --> 01:27:31.050 True. 1249 01:27:30.470 --> 01:27:32.630 As a part of their function, yes, sir. 1250 01:27:38.740 --> 01:27:43.140 So these masons, in essence, spent much of their working time performing the services 1251 01:27:43.140 --> 01:27:46.320 of a pipe coverer or an insulator at the Manville complex. 1252 01:27:46.680 --> 01:27:47.680 True? 1253 01:27:47.140 --> 01:27:48.140 Yes, sir. 1254 01:27:54.490 --> 01:28:00.390 Masons, did they receive, as 1255 01:28:00.390 --> 01:28:04.090 a routine, chest x-rays every two years while you were 1256 01:28:04.090 --> 01:28:07.030 their supervisor from 1946 until 1952? 1257 01:28:10.120 --> 01:28:11.120 Yes, sir. 1258 01:28:10.840 --> 01:28:16.740 they received the same physical examination as all 1259 01:28:16.740 --> 01:28:17.740 other employees. 1260 01:28:18.640 --> 01:28:24.140 And did that chest X-ray program remain unchanged from 1261 01:28:24.140 --> 01:28:25.980 1952 until 1959? 1262 01:28:26.320 --> 01:28:27.440 Your Honor, I'm going to object. 1263 01:28:27.660 --> 01:28:33.080 I've sat so far, but the witness continues to state 1264 01:28:33.080 --> 01:28:36.920 that it was a physical examination which included a chest X-ray. 1265 01:28:36.920 --> 01:28:42.000 Mr. O'Reilly continues to characterize it as a chest x-ray program, which it is not, 1266 01:28:42.200 --> 01:28:46.980 and I will object on grounds that it mischaracterizes the witness's testimony. 1267 01:28:47.580 --> 01:28:48.580 Thank you, sir. 1268 01:28:48.660 --> 01:28:52.880 I believe the witness said in the beginning that there was a chest x-ray program 1269 01:28:52.880 --> 01:28:54.600 that was part of the physical examination, 1270 01:28:54.940 --> 01:28:58.640 and that's the part of the physical examination that I'm concerned about in my questioning. 1271 01:28:58.860 --> 01:29:03.860 He also has made it rather clear, counsel, that it is a part of another program, 1272 01:29:03.960 --> 01:29:05.420 a general examination. 1273 01:29:06.920 --> 01:29:11.260 but not solely, apparently, an x-ray program. 1274 01:29:12.960 --> 01:29:19.200 Insofar as the chest x-ray program part of this physical examination is concerned, 1275 01:29:20.040 --> 01:29:24.940 did it remain unchanged from 1952 to 1959 at the Manville facility? 1276 01:29:25.440 --> 01:29:28.280 The physical examination program remained the same. 1277 01:29:28.920 --> 01:29:29.920 In its entirety? 1278 01:29:30.080 --> 01:29:31.080 In its entirety. 1279 01:29:31.000 --> 01:29:36.920 Now, is it true that when you became safety engineer 1280 01:29:36.920 --> 01:29:41.080 in 1952 and up until you went to 1281 01:29:41.080 --> 01:29:45.660 corporate headquarters in 1959 and 1960, key staff 1282 01:29:45.660 --> 01:29:49.060 received a physical examination and 1283 01:29:49.060 --> 01:29:54.080 a chest x-ray once a year instead of once every two years, like all other employees? 1284 01:29:54.080 --> 01:29:58.540 plant managers key staff personnel 1285 01:30:01.160 --> 01:30:08.160 received a physical examination once a year this included 1286 01:30:08.160 --> 01:30:13.180 a chest x-ray which included a chest x-ray yes sir and 1287 01:30:32.000 --> 01:30:35.000 the key staff that received a physical 1288 01:30:35.000 --> 01:30:40.260 examination and a chest x-ray every year instead of every two years consisted of 1289 01:30:40.260 --> 01:30:41.600 three plant 1290 01:30:41.600 --> 01:30:45.720 managers and approximately 18 superintendents that worked beneath them 1291 01:30:45.720 --> 01:30:51.520 from 52 to 59. Included three 1292 01:30:51.520 --> 01:30:56.080 plant managers and I as I testified to the 1293 01:30:56.080 --> 01:30:59.860 other day I'm not certain of the number of staff people each had but 1294 01:30:59.860 --> 01:31:04.420 approximately six six staff members on each plant manager staff. 1295 01:31:05.520 --> 01:31:10.700 When you were 1296 01:31:10.700 --> 01:31:15.400 describing the buildings before at the Manville complex I don't believe you 1297 01:31:15.400 --> 01:31:18.960 mentioned the office building maybe you did and i missed it but did the manville 1298 01:31:18.960 --> 01:31:19.960 complex also 1299 01:31:19.680 --> 01:31:25.500 contain a multi-story office building no sir i i think you're right i don't think i 1300 01:31:25.500 --> 01:31:26.500 did mention 1301 01:31:26.080 --> 01:31:32.020 the office building there was a what was known as the main office building and 1302 01:31:34.220 --> 01:31:35.420 that housed nothing 1303 01:31:35.420 --> 01:31:38.220 but offices and office personnel is that true one 1304 01:31:42.900 --> 01:31:45.660 of the plant managers was permanently officed in 1305 01:31:45.660 --> 01:31:49.840 that office building wasn't he yes sir and which plant manager was that that was mr 1306 01:31:49.840 --> 01:31:51.680 o'brien and 1307 01:31:51.680 --> 01:31:53.020 And what was he the plant manager of? 1308 01:31:53.240 --> 01:31:56.800 The Industrial Division. 1309 01:32:28.930 --> 01:32:34.690 In 1946, when you became supervisor of construction for Johns 1310 01:32:34.690 --> 01:32:36.150 Manville at the Manville facility, 1311 01:32:37.250 --> 01:32:42.290 you had a number of people that worked under your supervision in what was known as 1312 01:32:42.290 --> 01:32:43.290 the construction department. 1313 01:32:43.550 --> 01:32:44.550 True? 1314 01:32:44.290 --> 01:32:45.290 Yes, sir. 1315 01:32:45.510 --> 01:32:49.190 And in addition to, well, let me withdraw that. 1316 01:32:49.190 --> 01:32:54.890 that. The construction department, while you were supervised from 1946 to 1317 01:32:54.890 --> 01:32:57.350 1952, had responsibilities 1318 01:32:57.770 --> 01:33:01.070 for new construction at the Manville facility, is that true? 1319 01:33:01.990 --> 01:33:06.390 New construction and construction repairs, yes, sir. 1320 01:33:06.510 --> 01:33:12.010 And by construction repairs, do you mean that the construction department that you supervised 1321 01:33:12.010 --> 01:33:17.750 from 1946 to 1952 had responsibility for doing repair and overhaul work on 1322 01:33:17.750 --> 01:33:18.750 piping and systems 1323 01:33:18.590 --> 01:33:19.590 systems at the Manville complex? 1324 01:33:23.220 --> 01:33:29.160 The department which I supervised did not have responsibility 1325 01:33:29.160 --> 01:33:32.500 for repairing the piping. 1326 01:33:33.340 --> 01:33:36.620 That was done by steamfitters. 1327 01:33:37.040 --> 01:33:42.960 Did your construction department, between 1946 and 1942, have responsibility 1328 01:33:42.960 --> 01:33:45.100 for removing 1329 01:33:45.100 --> 01:33:46.100 ? 1330 01:33:45.560 --> 01:33:46.560 Pardon? 1331 01:33:46.440 --> 01:33:47.440 I'm sorry. 1332 01:33:47.300 --> 01:33:48.300 I'll take your word for it. 1333 01:33:48.120 --> 01:33:49.140 I won't even ask you how or where. 1334 01:33:49.260 --> 01:33:50.300 I will draw the question. 1335 01:33:50.300 --> 01:33:55.560 Did the construction department that you supervised from 1946 to 1952 have 1336 01:33:55.560 --> 01:33:58.900 responsibility for ripping 1337 01:33:58.900 --> 01:34:03.700 out or removing any particular kind of insulation that was covering piping that had 1338 01:34:03.700 --> 01:34:04.700 to be repaired 1339 01:34:04.180 --> 01:34:05.180 by the steamfitters? 1340 01:34:05.260 --> 01:34:06.260 Yes, sir. 1341 01:34:05.820 --> 01:34:06.820 They did. 1342 01:34:07.040 --> 01:34:08.040 They did tear out. 1343 01:34:10.640 --> 01:34:15.520 And when the steamfitters finished whatever repair work they had to perform on the piping 1344 01:34:15.520 --> 01:34:20.020 systems in 1946 to 1952, did your construction department have the responsibility 1345 01:34:20.020 --> 01:34:21.020 for insulating 1346 01:34:21.000 --> 01:34:23.220 insulating the piping after the work was performed by the steamfitters? 1347 01:34:23.420 --> 01:34:24.540 That's correct, yes, sir. 1348 01:34:30.100 --> 01:34:35.100 And was it the masons that performed the rip-out or tear-out 1349 01:34:35.100 --> 01:34:38.760 so that the steamfitters could get access to the piping systems between 46 and 52? 1350 01:34:40.160 --> 01:34:42.360 Masons and mason helpers, yes, sir. 1351 01:34:43.200 --> 01:34:47.320 And was it also the mason and mason helpers that insulated the piping systems 1352 01:34:47.320 --> 01:34:50.060 after they were repaired by the steamfitters, 46 to 52? 1353 01:34:50.400 --> 01:34:51.400 Yes, sir. 1354 01:34:50.980 --> 01:34:55.900 And when you became supervisor of construction at the Manville complex 1355 01:34:55.900 --> 01:34:57.720 in 1946, 1356 01:34:58.580 --> 01:35:03.720 isn't it correct that respirators were issued, as a matter of course, 1357 01:35:03.800 --> 01:35:05.860 to a number of the personnel in the construction department? 1358 01:35:06.820 --> 01:35:12.560 Respirators were provided to all of the 1359 01:35:12.560 --> 01:35:15.540 employees in the construction department 1360 01:35:15.540 --> 01:35:18.020 regardless of their function. 1361 01:35:18.020 --> 01:35:23.380 Is it true that when 1362 01:35:23.380 --> 01:35:28.780 the masons and mason helpers that worked in the construction department 1363 01:35:29.100 --> 01:35:35.000 under your supervision from 1946 until 1952 performed any work 1364 01:35:35.000 --> 01:35:36.340 that had them removing 1365 01:35:36.960 --> 01:35:42.520 old insulation that you recommended they wet the old insulation down before they remove 1366 01:35:42.520 --> 01:35:43.520 it? 1367 01:35:42.920 --> 01:35:46.460 Yes, sir. 1368 01:35:46.460 --> 01:35:52.320 and is it true that much of the old insulation that was in use at the 1369 01:35:52.320 --> 01:35:53.640 manville complex from 42 1370 01:35:53.640 --> 01:35:59.620 i'm sorry much of the let me rephrase what's on the question is it true that 1371 01:35:59.620 --> 01:36:00.620 much of the 1372 01:36:00.300 --> 01:36:05.340 insulation that was in use at the manville complex when you became supervisor of 1373 01:36:05.340 --> 01:36:06.360 construction in 1946 1374 01:36:06.360 --> 01:36:11.560 contained asbestos and is it true 1375 01:36:11.560 --> 01:36:17.120 that much of the insulation the new insulation that was prepared 1376 01:36:17.120 --> 01:36:21.920 and applied by the masons and mason helpers that worked for you contained asbestos. 1377 01:36:22.600 --> 01:36:24.120 Yes, sir, that is true. 1378 01:36:24.320 --> 01:36:29.760 And is it true that the insulating materials, the asbestos-containing insulating materials 1379 01:36:29.760 --> 01:36:35.660 used by your construction department from 1946 to 1952 were manufactured by Johns- Manville? 1380 01:36:36.080 --> 01:36:37.080 Yes, sir. 1381 01:36:42.500 --> 01:36:48.100 And is it true that the reason that you recommended that the 1382 01:36:48.100 --> 01:36:49.580 J-M employees 1383 01:36:49.580 --> 01:36:54.260 who worked out of your construction department 1946 to 1952 1384 01:36:54.260 --> 01:36:57.340 when they performed let me rephrase 1385 01:36:57.340 --> 01:37:02.940 the question withdraw the question is it true that the reason that you recommended 1386 01:37:02.940 --> 01:37:04.260 that the 1387 01:37:04.260 --> 01:37:09.820 masons and mason helpers wet the old insulation down before removing it 1388 01:37:09.820 --> 01:37:11.780 was because you recognize 1389 01:37:11.780 --> 01:37:16.940 that that would reduce the dust created during the rip out or tear out procedure is 1390 01:37:23.700 --> 01:37:24.700 it true 1391 01:37:24.100 --> 01:37:30.000 that from 1936 to 1942 1392 01:37:30.000 --> 01:37:35.680 you as liaison between Johns-Manville at the Manville 1393 01:37:35.680 --> 01:37:41.260 complex and the outside contractors you observe the pipe covers 1394 01:37:41.260 --> 01:37:42.500 and insulators 1395 01:37:42.500 --> 01:37:46.740 that work for the outside contractors removing and applying insulating 1396 01:37:46.740 --> 01:37:52.640 materials no sir you did not well let 1397 01:37:52.640 --> 01:37:54.160 me let me ask you this two questions you 1398 01:37:54.160 --> 01:37:58.040 asked me two questions sir you want to break them down yeah i'll break them down 1399 01:37:58.040 --> 01:37:59.040 i'll break them 1400 01:37:58.680 --> 01:38:03.770 down did you from 1936 until 1942 1401 01:38:03.770 --> 01:38:08.550 observe the pipe covers and insulators who work for these outside 1402 01:38:08.550 --> 01:38:13.990 contractors prepare and apply new insulation at the manville complex yes sir and 1403 01:38:13.990 --> 01:38:14.990 was many of it 1404 01:38:14.870 --> 01:38:18.850 especially containing insulation yes sir and was it john's manville especially 1405 01:38:18.850 --> 01:38:19.850 containing insulation 1406 01:38:19.590 --> 01:38:20.590 Yes, sir. 1407 01:38:26.400 --> 01:38:32.320 And from 1936 until 1942, did you observe the pipe covers and 1408 01:38:32.320 --> 01:38:33.320 insulators that 1409 01:38:32.820 --> 01:38:37.060 worked for the outside contractors mixing asbestos cement with water? 1410 01:38:38.540 --> 01:38:39.540 Yes, sir. 1411 01:38:39.400 --> 01:38:41.500 And was that a dusty process, the 1412 01:38:45.760 --> 01:38:46.760 way they were doing it? 1413 01:38:46.740 --> 01:38:52.170 Depended on who and how it was done. 1414 01:39:03.840 --> 01:39:05.060 Yes, sir, I'm listening. 1415 01:39:07.000 --> 01:39:08.260 Oh, you finished your answer? 1416 01:39:08.260 --> 01:39:14.120 Well, there was some dust created depending on how it was dumped 1417 01:39:14.120 --> 01:39:16.880 into the hogs by one 1418 01:39:16.880 --> 01:39:17.880 operator. 1419 01:39:17.620 --> 01:39:21.380 Another operator could dump it into the hogs and not create dust. 1420 01:39:26.230 --> 01:39:27.610 H-O-G-S. 1421 01:39:27.910 --> 01:39:28.910 Yes, sir. 1422 01:39:32.310 --> 01:39:38.450 From what you observed from 1936 to 1942, when you saw these pipe covers and 1423 01:39:38.450 --> 01:39:43.790 insulators for the outside contractors mixing the asbestos containing cement, was 1424 01:39:43.790 --> 01:39:44.790 it your 1425 01:39:44.050 --> 01:39:47.570 opinion that it was a dusty operation generally speaking very 1426 01:40:00.940 --> 01:40:02.260 difficult for me to answer that 1427 01:40:02.260 --> 01:40:04.540 question i i reluctant 1428 01:40:08.770 --> 01:40:14.430 to to say yes or no to that question i 1429 01:40:14.430 --> 01:40:20.270 i don't recall well when 1430 01:40:20.270 --> 01:40:21.270 you would 1431 01:40:21.110 --> 01:40:26.610 from 1936 to 1942 while you were the liaison between 1432 01:40:26.610 --> 01:40:28.570 the manville complex and the outside 1433 01:40:28.570 --> 01:40:33.430 contractors observe the pipe covers and insulators 1434 01:40:33.430 --> 01:40:35.910 cutting and sawing 1435 01:40:36.870 --> 01:40:42.850 especially containing pipe covering and block is that true yes sir 1436 01:40:42.850 --> 01:40:43.850 that's true 1437 01:40:43.370 --> 01:40:47.810 and you saw them I'm gonna phrase that you would observe them sawing it by hand 1438 01:40:47.810 --> 01:40:52.950 is that true yes sir they saw that and you saw dust being created when they 1439 01:40:52.950 --> 01:40:58.210 would saw or cut especially containing pipe covering or block 36 to 42 correct 1440 01:40:58.210 --> 01:41:03.310 there was some dust created yes sir that you could see with your eyes 1441 01:41:03.310 --> 01:41:07.020 yes sir during 1442 01:41:51.530 --> 01:41:52.530 the period of 1443 01:41:52.010 --> 01:41:56.230 time that you were construction uh supervisor or supervisor of construction from 1444 01:41:56.230 --> 01:41:58.390 1946 until 1952 1445 01:41:59.540 --> 01:42:05.230 you observed the masons that worked for you or for 1446 01:42:05.230 --> 01:42:07.470 johns manville under your supervision 1447 01:42:07.470 --> 01:42:12.690 mixing especially containing cement true yes sir 1448 01:42:12.690 --> 01:42:17.240 and did you observe dust being 1449 01:42:17.240 --> 01:42:19.600 created when the cement would be mixed yes 1450 01:42:31.310 --> 01:42:34.270 I think there was some dust created 1451 01:42:34.270 --> 01:42:39.690 I can't say it was void of all dust however we 1452 01:42:39.690 --> 01:42:40.970 wet 1453 01:42:48.740 --> 01:42:50.640 down as fast as possible 1454 01:42:51.420 --> 01:42:57.020 well during the period of time 1946 until 1952 did the 1455 01:42:57.020 --> 01:42:58.020 Masons and Mason 1456 01:42:57.920 --> 01:43:02.640 and helpers that mixed this asbestos- containing cement under your supervision do it 1457 01:43:02.640 --> 01:43:03.640 in a way 1458 01:43:03.180 --> 01:43:07.160 that was different than the way it was done by the pipe covers and insulators that you 1459 01:43:07.160 --> 01:43:08.900 observed from 1936 to 1942? 1460 01:43:12.360 --> 01:43:14.680 I think that's a fair statement, yes. 1461 01:43:15.020 --> 01:43:16.700 Was it done differently or was it done the same? 1462 01:43:17.000 --> 01:43:20.180 No, I think it was done somewhat differently. 1463 01:43:21.020 --> 01:43:26.120 How was it done differently from 1946 to 1952 while you were supervisor of construction? 1464 01:43:26.380 --> 01:43:29.820 How did the employees working under your supervision do it differently than what 1465 01:43:29.820 --> 01:43:30.920 you observed from 1466 01:43:30.920 --> 01:43:35.080 1936 to 1942 the the 1467 01:43:37.420 --> 01:43:43.020 emptying of bags in from from the bag into the 1468 01:43:43.020 --> 01:43:46.360 hog which is the trough 1469 01:43:46.360 --> 01:43:52.340 where the cement is mixed if the bag is placed 1470 01:43:52.340 --> 01:43:59.540 in the hog and cut open and raised up there is 1471 01:43:59.540 --> 01:44:05.500 minimal dust created if on the other hand the bag 1472 01:44:05.500 --> 01:44:07.220 is thrown on the side of 1473 01:44:07.220 --> 01:44:13.060 the hog and torn open and shaken then there will 1474 01:44:13.060 --> 01:44:15.180 be dust created so it depends 1475 01:44:15.180 --> 01:44:21.100 on the individual putting the material into the hog as to whether he creates 1476 01:44:21.100 --> 01:44:26.800 creates minimal dust or creates a dustier condition. 1477 01:44:27.580 --> 01:44:32.780 We encouraged our people to put the bags in the hog, 1478 01:44:33.080 --> 01:44:38.940 cut them open, raise the bag, let 1479 01:44:38.940 --> 01:44:41.640 the material go out, and put water into it immediately. 1480 01:44:42.300 --> 01:44:47.560 And that's the way you recommended that the J-M employees working under your supervision 1481 01:44:47.560 --> 01:44:50.100 from 46 to 52 perform that operation? 1482 01:44:50.540 --> 01:44:51.540 I did. 1483 01:44:50.880 --> 01:44:56.680 and you did that to keep the dust down I did that to create minimal dust 1484 01:44:56.680 --> 01:45:00.600 and is it true that no 1485 01:45:00.600 --> 01:45:04.980 matter how cement was mixed especially containing cement was mixed it was dusty 1486 01:45:04.980 --> 01:45:07.040 some operations more 1487 01:45:07.040 --> 01:45:11.400 dusty than others but no matter how it was done at that time it was dusty well I I 1488 01:45:11.400 --> 01:45:12.740 don't know what 1489 01:45:12.740 --> 01:45:18.660 you mean by dusty so if you can clarify how much dust is dusty then I can 1490 01:45:18.660 --> 01:45:20.040 answer your question can 1491 01:45:20.040 --> 01:45:24.040 Can you do it in terms of maximum allowable concentrations? 1492 01:45:25.140 --> 01:45:28.520 You tell me, then I'll attempt to answer your question. 1493 01:45:28.800 --> 01:45:30.080 You could see it with your eye. 1494 01:45:30.460 --> 01:45:32.380 Whenever you'd mix cement, you could see the dust. 1495 01:45:32.740 --> 01:45:33.900 Well, yes, 1496 01:45:40.080 --> 01:45:43.000 you can see dust when you mix cement. 1497 01:45:43.940 --> 01:45:49.230 And it was a dusty job, mixing the cements. 1498 01:45:49.430 --> 01:45:52.450 I think I just answered your question, sir. 1499 01:45:52.550 --> 01:45:54.730 I don't know what you mean by a dusty job. 1500 01:45:59.770 --> 01:46:04.410 I'd like to read from the deposition of Mr. Sheckler, dated August 25, 1978. 1501 01:46:06.170 --> 01:46:11.130 This again is under the Damewood caption on Tennessee cases taken in the state of Louisville, 1502 01:46:11.230 --> 01:46:12.230 Kentucky. 1503 01:46:14.300 --> 01:46:18.420 August 25, 1978, page 121, line 1504 01:46:19.930 --> 01:46:21.730 15 to 1505 01:46:25.600 --> 01:46:27.640 122, line 11. 1506 01:46:29.260 --> 01:46:30.680 Do you mind if I take a look at that? 1507 01:46:30.780 --> 01:46:31.780 No. 1508 01:46:31.000 --> 01:46:32.360 This is the one we gave you a copy of, though. 1509 01:46:32.440 --> 01:46:33.440 You don't have it with you today? 1510 01:46:33.400 --> 01:46:34.800 Well, we'll bring you another copy. 1511 01:47:11.780 --> 01:47:13.420 I would sustain that objection. 1512 01:47:15.040 --> 01:47:16.040 You would sustain it? 1513 01:47:16.240 --> 01:47:20.400 Yeah, I was reading the question that was objected to. 1514 01:47:20.500 --> 01:47:21.500 We don't have a ruling. 1515 01:47:23.990 --> 01:47:24.990 Right. 1516 01:47:24.470 --> 01:47:25.470 We could go off tape. 1517 01:47:25.610 --> 01:47:26.610 No, we'll stay on tape. 1518 01:47:26.570 --> 01:47:27.570 I'll stop before that. 1519 01:47:27.490 --> 01:47:28.490 I want to ask the question. 1520 01:47:28.750 --> 01:47:29.750 That question. 1521 01:47:31.720 --> 01:47:32.720 Go ahead. 1522 01:47:36.110 --> 01:47:42.310 Page 121 of that August 25, 1978 deposition, line 15, question of Mr. 1523 01:47:42.470 --> 01:47:43.470 Sheckler. 1524 01:47:42.790 --> 01:47:47.590 and you were familiar with the fact that the asbestos cements and other asbestos related 1525 01:47:47.590 --> 01:47:52.050 products that these construction insulators or pipe coverers used in the process of the 1526 01:47:52.050 --> 01:47:56.650 construction work that they did became easily airborne isn't that true answer 1527 01:47:56.650 --> 01:47:57.850 depending on 1528 01:47:57.850 --> 01:48:02.310 the material some of it was dusty question and that's particularly true with 1529 01:48:02.310 --> 01:48:03.310 respect to the 1530 01:48:02.930 --> 01:48:07.870 mixing procedure that attends the asbestos cement that is a pretty dusty dirty job 1531 01:48:07.870 --> 01:48:08.870 isn't it 1532 01:48:09.710 --> 01:48:11.610 Mixing cements was a dusty job. 1533 01:48:13.780 --> 01:48:14.780 I'm stopping there. 1534 01:48:14.640 --> 01:48:17.000 Line 1, page 122. 1535 01:48:17.780 --> 01:48:23.420 Now, Mr. Sheckler, you mentioned something also about wetting it down as quickly as one 1536 01:48:23.420 --> 01:48:24.420 could. 1537 01:48:23.980 --> 01:48:28.000 Were you talking about the process of... 1538 01:48:28.000 --> 01:48:31.160 Let me retry the question. 1539 01:48:32.200 --> 01:48:38.060 Did you also recommend to the pipe covers and insulators that worked under your supervision 1540 01:48:38.060 --> 01:48:41.220 in the construction department, I mean the masons and the mason helpers, 1541 01:48:41.220 --> 01:48:45.700 that when they mix cement, they wet it down immediately to prevent dust 1542 01:48:45.700 --> 01:48:48.480 or to reduce the dust that would be airborne? 1543 01:48:51.100 --> 01:48:56.880 Yes, I recommend that the material be wet down as 1544 01:48:58.190 --> 01:49:00.970 soon 1545 01:49:05.550 --> 01:49:06.550 as possible. 1546 01:49:06.430 --> 01:49:12.270 So you advise the people working for you that were mixing the special 1547 01:49:12.270 --> 01:49:13.270 containing cement 1548 01:49:12.950 --> 01:49:18.090 from 46 to 52 to dissolve the special containing cement with water as soon as they could? 1549 01:49:19.290 --> 01:49:24.870 well that was the yes sir that was the objective of mixing cement was to get it 1550 01:49:24.870 --> 01:49:30.670 wet and get it on the pipe covering and did you also recognize during that time 46 1551 01:49:30.670 --> 01:49:31.670 to 52 1552 01:49:31.910 --> 01:49:37.530 that the sooner the cement was wet the less dust would be created well 1553 01:49:40.790 --> 01:49:42.010 i think that yes sir 1554 01:49:42.010 --> 01:49:44.470 I think that's a reasonable line. 1555 01:49:44.870 --> 01:49:45.930 What about five minutes? 1556 01:49:47.440 --> 01:49:48.440 How about that? 1557 01:49:48.320 --> 01:49:49.380 Can we take five minutes?