WEBVTT

NOTE Machine transcript of the film's sound; not yet checked.

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When you observed the pipe covers and
insulators that were

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working for the outside contractors at the
Manville facility

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from 1936 until 1942, did you see any of
them with respirators?

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No, sir, I don't recall seeing any of them
with respirators.

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Did you observe any of those pipe covers
and insulators from 1936 until 1942

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mixing the cement in such a way as to make
it less dusty?

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No, sir.

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okay so the pipe covers and insulators
that you observed from 1936 to 1942 were
not

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mixing the

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asbestos containing cement in the way that
you recommended that the masons under your

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supervision do it from 1946 to 52. is that
true that's that's correct yes sir at

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that time 1946

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until 1952 who

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are aware that the asbestos containing
insulation products manufactured

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manufactured and sold by Johns-Manville
were used aboard ship

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in shipyards.

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Is that true?

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We're aware from 1946 until 1952 that

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many of these insulating products

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containing asbestos that were manufactured
and sold by Johns-Manville

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were used in ship spaces below deck aboard
ship.

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Mr. O'Reilly, you're now talking about
Johns-Manville products.

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Do you mean insulation products or any
product?

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I thought I said insulation products
containing asbestos in the question,

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but I'll rephrase the question.

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Were you also aware from 1946 to 1952

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that the asbestos-containing insulating
products

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manufactured and sold by Johns-Manville
that were being used in shipyards

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were on many occasions being used in ship
spaces below deck aboard ship?

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Yes, sir.

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Is it true that shipyard workers

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using asbestos-containing insulating
products

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would have a higher exposure than normal
construction workers?

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I'll object on foundational grounds.

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Are you asking me, sir, do I know that as
of this date,

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or did I know it as of a date before this?

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I don't understand.

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Well, first now.

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I think so, sir.

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The question is, at the present time, do
you have some awareness in that respect?

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Yes. I think that's a

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reasonable statement.

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Were you aware of that 1946 until 1952?

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During that period?

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During that period of time.

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No, sir.

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were you aware at any time from 1946 until
1952

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that stickers

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outside of

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Johns-Manville let me rephrase the
question were you aware at any time from

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1946 until 1952 that asbestos containing
insulating materials

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in particular

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thermal insulating products manufactured
and sold by Johns-Manville would have to

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to be ripped out or torn out at some point
in time by consumers or members of the
consuming

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public.

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I'll object as vague and ambiguous as to
the meaning of the term consumer.

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I will try the question.

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I will try the question.

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You've testified that from 1946 to 1952,
the masons and mason helpers working

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in your construction

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department occasionally performed tear-out
or rip-out work.

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Yes, sir.

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where they tore out or ripped out old,
especially containing insulation materials

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in order to make piping systems or
machinery accessible to steam fitters,
pipe

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fitters, that kind of thing.

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True?

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Yes, sir.

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And were you aware at any time from 1946
to 1952

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that purchasers of Johns-Manville,
especially containing insulating products,

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thermal insulating products, would at some
point in time be performing the same

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kind of tear-out or rip-out procedures?

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I ain't sure anymore.

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Let me go back and do the question over.

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I would say no. All right.

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Were you aware at any time from 1946 until
1952 that

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purchasers of Johns-Manville

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Manville asbestos-containing thermal
insulation products would, at some point
in

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time, be

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performing the same kind of tear-out or
rip-out operation.

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That is, where they would be removing old
asbestos-containing insulating products in

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order to make piping systems or machinery
accessible to other crafts.

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Was there any reason that you were aware
of at any time from 1946 to

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1952 that indicated

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to you that purchasers of Johns-Manville
thermal insulating asbestos-containing

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products would

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would not be engaging in rip-out or tear-
out operations.

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I don't think in that time period, Mr.
O'Reilly,

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that I really gave the purchasers of Johns

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Manville materials any thought.

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Okay.

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Now, going back to this project that you
were on for Johns-Manville

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from 1972 until today where you're
collecting and collating this material

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on the Manville employees. Do you know the
project I'm talking about?

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Yes, sir.

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From 1972 until today, have you submitted
any kind of a written documentation

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or writing

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to anyone at Johns-Manville about any
aspect of that project other than your
bills?

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I'll

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rephrase the question. Have you, since you
began this project in 1972,

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submitted any

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any writing or written document to Johns-
Manville that dealt with this project that

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you were

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performing for them, other than when you
would send them a statement, other than a
statement

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for your bill for a particular month or
two months or three months?

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I'm going to object on the grounds of the
term writing or written materials.

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Go ahead.

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I just did, since in view of my knowledge,

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it's vague and ambiguous.

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Thank you. Did you prepare any kind of

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a written document for forwarding to
Johns-Manville

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about any aspect of this project from 1972
when you began it until today,

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other than

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your statement of your bill?

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Same objection. No, sir.

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Has Johns-Manville, Johns-Manville, sent
you any

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form of a written document pertaining to
this project

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or your project?

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Let me rephrase the question.

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Since you began this project in 1972, has
Johns-Manville or anyone at Johns

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Manville sent any written document to you
that was prepared by them

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with respect to your progress on the
project?

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No, sir, I don't think so.

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I want

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to mislead you, Mr. O'Reilly.

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I would like you to define to me what you
mean by written.

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I don't quite understand that all of the
data

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back and forth has been on computer tape,

128
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and I'm not sure that you consider that
written material or not, and I don't want

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to mislead

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the jury or yourself.

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Well, from 1972 until today, you've
submitted approximately

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two computer tapes to Johns

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Manville on this project.

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Is that true?

135
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No, sir.

136
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That's not true.

137
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Okay.

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How many computer tapes have you submitted
to Johns-Manville?

139
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I haven't the slightest idea.

140
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Usually four a month to five a month, full
tapes.

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It varies depending on the amount of work
we do per month.

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And these tapes contain, essentially, the
data that you are

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collecting and collating for Johns-
Manville, is that true?

144
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That is correct, yes, sir.

145
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So you take all the data on these Manville
employees and put them on computer tape

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and send them to Johns-Manville?

147
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That's correct.

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And from 1972 until today, that's the only
thing you've sent Johns-Manville on this

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project other than your bill,

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that is these computer tapes containing
this data?

151
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Yes, sir.

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Okay. Now, has Johns-Manville sent
anything in writing to you about this

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project from 1972 until today?

154
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No, sir.

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And have you seen any document of any kind
that

156
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purports to be any kind of a summary of
the data you've submitted to Johns-
Manville

157
00:12:22.340 --> 00:12:23.340
on this project?

158
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No, sir.

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Have you seen any kind of a publication
that, any kind of a written publication

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that, in your mind, relates to this
project?

161
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No, sir. You also mentioned at the

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beginning of your direct testimony this
morning that you have served as they can

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Tima Tima

164
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Yes, sir. Originally NIMA now team same
organization

165
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Tima is short for the thermal insulation
Manufacturers Association.

166
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That's correct. And it is a industry
organization

167
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It's a an industry

168
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position yes, that is Tima is composed of
a number of

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companies in the thermal insulation
manufacturers industry?

170
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That's correct, yes, sir. And Johns

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Manville is a member of TIMA? Johns-
Manville is a member of TIMA.

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Is it true that all of the income

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that you've earned from 1972 until today
has come either from Johns-Manville for

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the project you're

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doing for them, your work and litigation
for Johns-Manville in the asbestos

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litigation, or from TIMA

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with the exception of a two-month project
you did for the Asbestos Information
Association?

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Yes, sir.

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And sometime two, three years ago,

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you did a two-month project for the
Asbestos Information Association?

181
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Yes, sir.

182
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And that is an industry organization?

183
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That is an industry organization also?

184
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That is, yes, sir.

185
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Before you retired from Johns-Manville in
1977,

186
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you went to a number of team of meetings,
did you not?

187
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I did, yes, sir.

188
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And you were chairman of a committee of
TIMA?

189
00:14:25.820 --> 00:14:26.820
Yes, sir.

190
00:14:26.840 --> 00:14:32.920
Would you tell the ladies and gentlemen of
the jury when you started going to TIMA
meetings,

191
00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:37.180
that is, meetings of the Thermal
Insulation Manufacturers Association?

192
00:14:37.180 --> 00:14:42.480
I became active in the

193
00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:46.920
NIMA organization in

194
00:14:46.920 --> 00:14:53.680
about 1962 or early 63.

195
00:14:54.360 --> 00:14:55.360
I don't know the

196
00:14:55.300 --> 00:14:56.460
exact date.

197
00:14:57.120 --> 00:15:02.280
In what capacity did you start going to
the NIMA meetings?

198
00:15:02.280 --> 00:15:08.040
I was a member of the

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00:15:08.040 --> 00:15:12.400
NIMA Health Safety Committee.

200
00:15:23.360 --> 00:15:26.540
And did you go to NIMA?

201
00:15:27.180 --> 00:15:29.920
Can we use NIMA and TIMA interchangeably?

202
00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:36.940
Yes, sir. The change in name, I believe,
came about 1964-65.

203
00:15:36.940 --> 00:15:42.680
Okay. Now, did you attend TIMA meetings
regularly

204
00:15:42.680 --> 00:15:47.600
from 1961 or 62 approximately until 1981?

205
00:15:52.580 --> 00:15:57.680
Mr. O'Reilly, there are many, many
different committees in TIMA,

206
00:15:58.160 --> 00:16:04.000
and I attended only the Health Safety
Committee,

207
00:16:04.180 --> 00:16:05.400
the Health Safety Group,

208
00:16:05.980 --> 00:16:08.900
and in recent years, the board meetings.

209
00:16:08.900 --> 00:16:13.440
Okay. So from 1961 or 1962

210
00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:19.280
until the present, did you regularly

211
00:16:19.280 --> 00:16:25.040
attend the meetings of the Health and
Safety Committee of TIMA?

212
00:16:25.660 --> 00:16:26.660
Yes, sir.

213
00:16:31.430 --> 00:16:36.590
And when you were on the Health and Safety
Committee from approximately 1961 or 62

214
00:16:36.590 --> 00:16:38.750
until the present, let me rephrase that.

215
00:16:38.750 --> 00:16:43.190
we'll draw that question. Did the Health
and Safety Committee of TIMA consist of

216
00:16:43.190 --> 00:16:49.130
a number of other people who were
employees of companies that were members

217
00:16:49.130 --> 00:16:52.170
of TIMA? Yes, sir.

218
00:16:52.370 --> 00:16:53.370
Would

219
00:17:00.350 --> 00:17:03.030
it be fair to state that from
approximately 1961 or

220
00:17:03.030 --> 00:17:09.010
1962 up until the present, from your
knowledge of the

221
00:17:09.010 --> 00:17:10.010
Health and Safety

222
00:17:09.610 --> 00:17:15.230
Committee meetings, that companies that
belonged to TIMA,

223
00:17:15.350 --> 00:17:16.350
that is thermal

224
00:17:16.310 --> 00:17:22.450
insulation manufacturers sent
representatives to TIMA, some of whom

225
00:17:22.450 --> 00:17:28.330
served on the Health and Safety Committee.
You understand the question?

226
00:17:28.650 --> 00:17:31.920
Oh, it's rather complex.

227
00:17:32.060 --> 00:17:37.820
I'm sorry I wasn't... The dates of my
initiative...

228
00:17:37.820 --> 00:17:42.960
Question again? I would like to have the
question over.

229
00:17:43.160 --> 00:17:49.070
Maybe I can make it

230
00:17:49.070 --> 00:17:51.710
less cumbersome. Let me take a shot. The

231
00:17:54.620 --> 00:17:55.620
Health and

232
00:17:55.440 --> 00:18:00.380
Safety Committee of the Thermal Insulation
Manufacturers Association from

233
00:18:00.380 --> 00:18:07.380
say 1961 or 62 up until you resigned from
Johns-Manville in 1977 consisted

234
00:18:07.380 --> 00:18:10.600
of employees of companies who were members
of TIMA?

235
00:18:10.760 --> 00:18:13.640
Yes, sir. Okay. At some

236
00:18:13.640 --> 00:18:17.120
point in time you became chairman of the
Health and Safety Committee of TIMA, is

237
00:18:17.120 --> 00:18:23.940
that correct? Yes, sir. When did that
occur, Mr. Sheckler? About 1965.

238
00:18:27.100 --> 00:18:28.100
And you

239
00:18:27.800 --> 00:18:31.680
served as chairman of the health and
safety committee of the thermal insulation
manufacturers

240
00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:37.000
association until when until that the
committee

241
00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:41.400
was dissolved in

242
00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:43.720
1979

243
00:18:47.690 --> 00:18:51.130
and replaced by the team

244
00:18:51.130 --> 00:18:53.290
of health safety group are

245
00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:03.780
you a member of the health safety group
NIMA i'm chairman of the

246
00:19:03.780 --> 00:19:08.320
health safety group yes sir at the present
time yes sir and you became did you become

247
00:19:08.320 --> 00:19:12.320
chairman of the Health Safety Group of
TIMA at the time the Health and Safety

248
00:19:12.320 --> 00:19:15.840
Committee was abolished in 1979?

249
00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:19.280
Yes, sir, at the time of the change of the
name.

250
00:20:02.440 --> 00:20:08.180
You also testified that you've served two
three-year terms as director of the

251
00:20:08.180 --> 00:20:11.720
Industrial Health Foundation? As a
director, yes, sir.

252
00:20:11.820 --> 00:20:12.820
And when did that

253
00:20:12.420 --> 00:20:13.420
that occur? From

254
00:20:26.520 --> 00:20:31.600
about 1974 or 5 through 1980, yes.

255
00:20:33.160 --> 00:20:36.120
And the Industrial Health Foundation

256
00:20:36.120 --> 00:20:39.400
is also referred to many times as the
Industrial Hygiene Foundation?

257
00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:43.420
Yes, sir. And IHF? Yes,

258
00:20:43.480 --> 00:20:47.040
sir. And that is also an industry
organization, that is, that is an
organization

259
00:20:47.040 --> 00:20:48.040
that is funded

260
00:20:48.020 --> 00:20:51.460
by industry it's

261
00:20:53.450 --> 00:20:59.030
it yes sir and Johns-Manville is a member
of that organization yes sir you

262
00:21:03.670 --> 00:21:08.090
mentioned some other organization the
Industrial Hygiene Engineering Association
or

263
00:21:08.090 --> 00:21:09.090
something like

264
00:21:08.470 --> 00:21:12.390
that that to recall what I'm talking about
I don't know that I phrased it correctly

265
00:21:12.390 --> 00:21:14.090
but when you were

266
00:21:14.090 --> 00:21:17.530
talking about your directorship at the
Industrial Health Foundation he then

267
00:21:17.530 --> 00:21:19.090
mentioned some

268
00:21:19.090 --> 00:21:22.890
participation you had in another
organization that began with industrial
hygiene or

269
00:21:22.890 --> 00:21:23.890
industrial health

270
00:21:23.610 --> 00:21:28.290
or engineering or something like that the
american industrial hygiene association

271
00:21:28.290 --> 00:21:33.230
the american industrial hygiene
association

272
00:21:33.230 --> 00:21:38.310
and what is that that's an association of

273
00:21:41.190 --> 00:21:47.130
government industry labor people all

274
00:21:49.430 --> 00:21:55.030
have a common uh interest in occupational
health

275
00:21:55.030 --> 00:22:00.980
in fact, in health in general, primarily
occupational health.

276
00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:03.900
When did you become involved or affiliated
with that organization?

277
00:22:09.530 --> 00:22:13.730
In the early 1960s.

278
00:22:14.930 --> 00:22:17.490
And what has your status been in that
organization

279
00:22:17.490 --> 00:22:20.370
from when you first joined it up until
approximately today?

280
00:22:20.690 --> 00:22:21.930
I'm no longer a member.

281
00:22:22.530 --> 00:22:25.230
When I retired from Johns-Manville,

282
00:22:25.310 --> 00:22:28.830
I discontinued membership in that
organization.

283
00:22:28.830 --> 00:22:34.250
so from the early 1960s until 1977 you
were a member of that organization yes

284
00:22:44.450 --> 00:22:50.250
and when you left that organization that
somebody else from Johns-Manville become

285
00:22:50.250 --> 00:22:51.630
a member yes

286
00:22:57.420 --> 00:23:01.620
sir do you know that was no sir I don't
testify

287
00:24:47.830 --> 00:24:51.670
that the lines of

288
00:24:51.670 --> 00:24:57.630
study exhibit a is one of the studies that
you read

289
00:24:57.630 --> 00:24:58.850
and relied upon in

290
00:24:58.850 --> 00:25:03.450
performing your duties for Johns-Manville
at some point in time? Is that true?

291
00:25:03.810 --> 00:25:04.810
Yes, sir.

292
00:25:04.550 --> 00:25:09.670
Okay. And approximately when did you read
the Lanza study for the first time?

293
00:25:11.450 --> 00:25:16.520
I did the study for the first time
sometime

294
00:25:16.520 --> 00:25:19.960
after I went into New York in 1960.

295
00:25:20.360 --> 00:25:26.240
Okay. For the sake of the ladies and
gentlemen of the

296
00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:29.880
jury, you became supervisor

297
00:25:29.880 --> 00:25:34.900
supervisor of safety at the Manville
Complex in 1957 and worked in that
capacity until

298
00:25:34.900 --> 00:25:38.140
approximately 1959 or 60, recognizing
there were a few months' overlap.

299
00:25:38.460 --> 00:25:39.460
True?

300
00:25:39.420 --> 00:25:40.420
Yes, sir.

301
00:25:40.300 --> 00:25:43.480
And then in 1959 or 19- well, let me
rephrase that.

302
00:25:43.540 --> 00:25:45.700
Then in 1960, you went to

303
00:25:45.700 --> 00:25:50.860
corporate headquarters in New York City to
begin serving as the manager of the
industrial

304
00:25:50.860 --> 00:25:52.560
health program for Johns-Manville. True?

305
00:25:52.780 --> 00:25:53.780
That's correct.

306
00:25:53.300 --> 00:25:58.640
At that point in time, that is 1960, when
you became

307
00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:03.100
the manager of the industrial health
program for Johns-Manville,

308
00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:09.560
did your responsibility extend to all of
Johns-Manville's mines and factories in

309
00:26:09.560 --> 00:26:10.860
Canada and the United States?

310
00:26:11.300 --> 00:26:12.300
I had

311
00:26:17.250 --> 00:26:22.930
responsibilities, yes, sir, for Canadian
locations and U.S.

312
00:26:22.950 --> 00:26:25.110
locations, production locations.

313
00:26:36.670 --> 00:26:42.250
between 1952 and 1960 when you became
manager of the industrial health program
did

314
00:26:42.250 --> 00:26:46.150
you take any college courses or any
courses at a university

315
00:26:47.030 --> 00:26:53.000
i took a course at

316
00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:58.280
NYU in legal and medical terminology

317
00:26:58.280 --> 00:27:05.780
and i took a course at Rutgers University
in psychology

318
00:27:07.280 --> 00:27:11.900
Okay. When did you take the course at NYU
in legal and medical terminology?

319
00:27:12.260 --> 00:27:17.620
I don't recall. Sometime between 1960 and

320
00:27:17.620 --> 00:27:21.820
1965 or 6.

321
00:27:23.180 --> 00:27:25.020
And how long a course was that?

322
00:27:25.380 --> 00:27:29.600
Oh, that was a short duration course.

323
00:27:29.760 --> 00:27:30.980
It was an evening thing.

324
00:27:32.420 --> 00:27:35.900
Oh, you're talking about like two nights a
week for six weeks or something like that?

325
00:27:35.900 --> 00:27:38.360
For several months, yes.

326
00:27:39.320 --> 00:27:43.640
And the course you took at Rutgers was
approximately when?

327
00:27:44.020 --> 00:27:46.460
That was before

328
00:27:52.350 --> 00:27:54.270
I went into New York.

329
00:27:54.410 --> 00:27:59.890
That was in the late 50s.

330
00:28:04.830 --> 00:28:07.770
And what duration was that course?

331
00:28:07.830 --> 00:28:08.830
How long a course was that?

332
00:28:08.750 --> 00:28:13.510
Well, that, too, was an evening course,
and I don't know the duration of it.

333
00:28:13.510 --> 00:28:17.560
but I just don't recall.

334
00:28:18.060 --> 00:28:23.920
It was three to six months, one or two
evenings

335
00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:24.920
a week.

336
00:28:30.140 --> 00:28:35.760
In 1960, when you became manager of the
industrial health program for Johns

337
00:28:35.760 --> 00:28:37.020
Manville's facilities

338
00:28:37.020 --> 00:28:42.880
in the United States and Canada, did you
have responsibility for administering the
safety

339
00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:48.520
50 program in all of Johns-Manville's
plants and factories in the United States
and Canada?

340
00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:50.680
Yes, sir.

341
00:28:50.660 --> 00:28:55.880
And can you tell us approximately, let me
rephrase that, is the number 50 an

342
00:28:55.880 --> 00:29:00.160
approximately accurate, let me rephrase
that, is the number 50 a reasonably

343
00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:01.200
accurate approximation

344
00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:05.580
of the number of plants that Johns-
Manville had in the United States and
Canada in 1960?

345
00:29:06.500 --> 00:29:12.660
I think it would be a fair statement.

346
00:29:12.660 --> 00:29:17.340
And it was 50-plus plant locations.

347
00:29:18.080 --> 00:29:23.380
And did those 50-plus plants and factories
encompass Canada

348
00:29:23.380 --> 00:29:26.280
in approximately 25 or 30 states in the
United States?

349
00:29:29.540 --> 00:29:30.540
Yes.

350
00:29:30.500 --> 00:29:31.500
Okay.

351
00:29:31.900 --> 00:29:36.480
Approximately how many employees were
employed by Johns-Manville

352
00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:38.660
in the United States and Canada at that
time?

353
00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:45.700
Approximately 20,000, give or take.

354
00:29:57.180 --> 00:30:03.180
did you read let me rephrase that is it
correct that

355
00:30:03.180 --> 00:30:04.860
when you became manager of

356
00:30:04.860 --> 00:30:10.360
the industrial health program in 1960 you
had a lot of reading to do in the

357
00:30:10.360 --> 00:30:14.760
area of asbestos related diseases no

358
00:30:16.870 --> 00:30:24.370
that's no that is not a factual

359
00:30:27.800 --> 00:30:33.760
statement when the proxy did you read the
Lanza study I don't know sometime

360
00:30:33.760 --> 00:30:36.880
after I went into

361
00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:42.280
New York and did you read the Lanza study
in order to familiarize yourself

362
00:30:42.280 --> 00:30:45.380
with asbestos

363
00:30:45.380 --> 00:30:50.140
related lung disease well I was provided

364
00:30:52.180 --> 00:30:57.460
information to that would

365
00:30:57.460 --> 00:30:58.780
help me to become

366
00:30:58.780 --> 00:31:04.660
knowledgeable by Dr. Kenneth Smith and he
chose selected literature

367
00:31:04.660 --> 00:31:05.720
for me to

368
00:31:05.720 --> 00:31:09.120
review as I had time.

369
00:31:09.180 --> 00:31:13.340
You might imagine with 50 plus plant
locations on the new

370
00:31:13.340 --> 00:31:16.360
job I was a pretty busy young man at that
time.

371
00:31:16.760 --> 00:31:18.600
And Dr. Kenneth Smith at that

372
00:31:18.600 --> 00:31:22.940
time was the medical director for Johns-
Manville Corporation? And my superior, yes

373
00:31:22.940 --> 00:31:26.620
sir. And his offices were also located at
corporate headquarters in New York City?

374
00:31:26.620 --> 00:31:27.680
They were, yes, sir.

375
00:31:29.820 --> 00:31:31.920
And your predecessor, Mr. Hugh Jackson.

376
00:31:32.780 --> 00:31:33.900
Let me rephrase that.

377
00:31:34.320 --> 00:31:37.540
The predecessor in your job, that is the
person that you replaced

378
00:31:37.540 --> 00:31:40.140
as manager of the Industrial Health
Program for Johns-Manville,

379
00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:41.920
was Mr. Hugh Jackson. Is that true?

380
00:31:42.140 --> 00:31:43.140
Yes, sir. That's correct.

381
00:31:44.700 --> 00:31:47.940
And when you took over Mr. Jackson's job
in 1960,

382
00:31:48.080 --> 00:31:50.000
did Mr. Jackson spend much time with you,

383
00:31:50.920 --> 00:31:53.800
familiarizing you with the developments
that had occurred

384
00:31:53.800 --> 00:31:57.780
heard while he was manager of the
industrial health program for Johns-
Manville?

385
00:31:58.620 --> 00:32:02.420
Not a great deal, no, sir, because he,
too, was earning a new job.

386
00:32:03.360 --> 00:32:08.480
Now, did anyone turn over to you the files
that Mr.

387
00:32:08.660 --> 00:32:10.540
Jackson collected on correspondence

388
00:32:10.540 --> 00:32:15.960
that he had with Saranac Labs while he was
working at corporate headquarters from
1947

389
00:32:15.960 --> 00:32:17.200
until 1960?

390
00:32:18.040 --> 00:32:19.040
No, sir.

391
00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:22.540
Did anyone turn over to you the files that
Mr.

392
00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:25.940
Jackson had accumulated on pneumoconiosis

393
00:32:25.940 --> 00:32:30.480
while he was serving at corporate
headquarters from 1947 to 1960?

394
00:32:31.100 --> 00:32:34.160
I'm going to object as assuming a fact,
not an evidence.

395
00:32:35.040 --> 00:32:36.620
I'll retry the question.

396
00:32:36.980 --> 00:32:42.100
Did anyone turn over to you at any time
the

397
00:32:42.100 --> 00:32:44.340
files on correspondence

398
00:32:44.340 --> 00:32:48.640
correspondence that Mr. Jackson maintained
while he was at corporate headquarters

399
00:32:48.640 --> 00:32:50.640
from 1947 until 1960.

400
00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:52.000
Say that again.

401
00:32:58.950 --> 00:33:03.310
And you became manager of the Industrial
Health Program in 1960.

402
00:33:03.830 --> 00:33:09.310
The only files that were turned over to
you were files that Dr.

403
00:33:09.530 --> 00:33:10.670
Smith provided to you.

404
00:33:10.710 --> 00:33:11.710
Is that true?

405
00:33:11.410 --> 00:33:12.770
That's correct, yes, sir.

406
00:33:12.850 --> 00:33:19.030
And these files that Dr. Smith provided to
you consisted of formats for you to follow

407
00:33:19.030 --> 00:33:22.290
in preparing various kinds of reports that
you would have to prepare

408
00:33:22.290 --> 00:33:24.710
while you were manager of the Industrial
Health Program. Is that true?

409
00:33:25.950 --> 00:33:29.410
Primarily format information. That's true,
yes, sir.

410
00:33:29.530 --> 00:33:32.830
Dr. Kenneth Smith did not turn over to you
any correspondence

411
00:33:32.830 --> 00:33:36.170
that had been maintained by Mr. Jackson

412
00:33:36.170 --> 00:33:39.590
while he was at corporate headquarters
from 1947 to 1960, did he?

413
00:33:39.790 --> 00:33:40.790
No, sir.

414
00:33:40.430 --> 00:33:43.390
And Dr. Smith did not turn over to you any
correspondence

415
00:33:43.390 --> 00:33:47.910
that Mr. Jackson had received while he was
manager of the Industrial Health Program.

416
00:33:47.970 --> 00:33:48.970
Let me rephrase that.

417
00:33:49.030 --> 00:33:52.990
Dr. Kenneth Smith did not turn over to you
any correspondence that had been

418
00:33:52.990 --> 00:33:55.850
received by either him or Mr. Jackson

419
00:33:55.850 --> 00:33:59.870
while Mr. Jackson was in corporate
headquarters from 1947 to 1960.

420
00:34:00.290 --> 00:34:01.290
Is that true?

421
00:34:06.370 --> 00:34:10.250
I can't say any correspondence there.
Generally,

422
00:34:15.560 --> 00:34:16.600
that's a true statement.

423
00:34:16.660 --> 00:34:22.260
Is it true that Dr. Kenneth Smith nor no
one else at Johns-Manville turned over to

424
00:34:22.260 --> 00:34:25.180
you in 1960 or any time thereafter

425
00:34:25.180 --> 00:34:29.820
after any correspondence that had been
maintained at corporate headquarters from

426
00:34:29.820 --> 00:34:31.260
1947 to 1960

427
00:34:31.260 --> 00:34:35.020
that dealt with as specials related lung
disease again

428
00:34:41.260 --> 00:34:44.840
i i can't uh answer that question yes

429
00:34:44.840 --> 00:34:50.680
or no uh there may be have been selected
uh correspondence that dr

430
00:34:50.680 --> 00:34:54.180
smith had had referred

431
00:34:54.180 --> 00:35:00.080
referred to me but generally the statement
is correct can

432
00:35:00.080 --> 00:35:01.080
you tell the

433
00:35:01.020 --> 00:35:05.360
ladies and gentlemen of the jury any
correspondence

434
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:08.320
that dr. Smith or anyone

435
00:35:08.320 --> 00:35:12.120
else turned over to you when you became
manager industrial health program that

436
00:35:12.120 --> 00:35:17.800
dealt with especially lung disease no I
don't I don't recall specifically

437
00:35:56.320 --> 00:36:01.620
Mr. Sheckler, from 1952 until 1957 when
you were safety engineer at the Manville
facility,

438
00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:06.120
you did have some responsibilities for
administration of the workman's
compensation

439
00:36:06.120 --> 00:36:07.120
program at the

440
00:36:07.080 --> 00:36:10.620
Manville facility. Is that true? No, sir.

441
00:36:11.660 --> 00:36:17.420
Did you attend workman's comp hearings,
informal hearings as part of your duties
as safety

442
00:36:17.420 --> 00:36:22.800
engineer from 1952 until 1957 occasionally
as requested by mr stanton

443
00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:24.420
and mr stanton was your

444
00:36:24.420 --> 00:36:28.020
superior from 52 to 57. he was yes sir
1957

445
00:36:34.460 --> 00:36:38.160
until 1959 when you were supervisor of
safety you did

446
00:36:38.160 --> 00:36:42.460
have responsibility for workman's
compensation claims filed by employees at
the

447
00:36:42.460 --> 00:36:43.460
manville facility

448
00:36:43.100 --> 00:36:48.560
true for the administration of workman's
compensation yes sir now uh workman's

449
00:36:50.090 --> 00:36:54.330
compensation the workman's compensation
claims that you had responsibility for
from

450
00:36:54.330 --> 00:36:55.810
1957 to 1959

451
00:36:56.390 --> 00:37:02.390
or in essence claims made by employees at
the manville facility that they had

452
00:37:02.390 --> 00:37:03.390
received some

453
00:37:03.230 --> 00:37:07.450
injury in the course of their employment
at the manville facility true yes

454
00:37:09.660 --> 00:37:12.140
sir okay and is it true

455
00:37:12.620 --> 00:37:18.280
that as supervisor of safety from 1957 to
1959 you

456
00:37:18.280 --> 00:37:20.940
from time to time made estimates

457
00:37:20.940 --> 00:37:25.820
as to what the company's exposure was on
particular workman's compensation claims

458
00:37:25.820 --> 00:37:30.700
filed by Manfield employees? Yes, sir. And
you would advise your superiors as to

459
00:37:30.700 --> 00:37:34.820
what you evaluated a particular workman's
compensation claim as being

460
00:37:34.820 --> 00:37:38.600
worth. That is what the company should set
aside or pay in order to resolve the

461
00:37:38.600 --> 00:37:43.040
matter with the approval of the state of
New Jersey. Yes, sir. And is it true that

462
00:37:43.040 --> 00:37:46.860
as part of your evaluating these workman's
compensation claims from 1957

463
00:37:46.860 --> 00:37:52.740
1957 until 1959, you reviewed the doctor's

464
00:37:52.740 --> 00:37:55.560
report, that is, the physician or
physicians

465
00:37:55.560 --> 00:37:58.540
retained by Johns-Manville to examine the
employee.

466
00:38:02.670 --> 00:38:03.670
Yes, sir.

467
00:38:03.370 --> 00:38:04.370
Okay.

468
00:38:04.530 --> 00:38:10.270
And is it true that in your

469
00:38:10.270 --> 00:38:13.970
evaluation of these workman's compensation
claims from 1957

470
00:38:13.970 --> 00:38:20.350
to 1959, you noticed that a number of
these claims were claims filed by Manville
employees

471
00:38:20.350 --> 00:38:23.430
wherein they allege that they received or
were suffering

472
00:38:23.430 --> 00:38:25.630
from some form of asbestos-related lung
disease.

473
00:38:25.850 --> 00:38:31.670
There were occupational disease cases
among the

474
00:38:31.670 --> 00:38:32.670
claims, yes, sir.

475
00:38:32.610 --> 00:38:35.830
And some of the occupational disease cases
were asbestos-related.

476
00:38:36.550 --> 00:38:37.550
Yes, sir.

477
00:38:37.730 --> 00:38:43.370
And is it true that some of the Manville
employees

478
00:38:43.370 --> 00:38:47.370
who were making the asbestos-related
disease claims were production people?

479
00:38:48.930 --> 00:38:51.810
That is, people who worked in production
at the Manville facility.

480
00:38:51.810 --> 00:38:52.810
That's true.

481
00:38:52.830 --> 00:38:53.830
Yes, sir.

482
00:38:53.250 --> 00:38:57.550
And is it true that some of the claimants,
that is, the Manville employees who made

483
00:38:57.550 --> 00:39:01.930
workman's comp claims between 57 and 59,
wherein they alleged asbestos-related

484
00:39:01.930 --> 00:39:02.930
disease, were

485
00:39:02.910 --> 00:39:03.910
non-production employees?

486
00:39:05.330 --> 00:39:08.730
You mean at the time they filed the claim,
Mr. O'Reilly?

487
00:39:09.330 --> 00:39:10.330
Yes, sir.

488
00:39:10.050 --> 00:39:11.050
Yes, sir.

489
00:39:10.590 --> 00:39:11.590
Yes, sir.

490
00:39:11.230 --> 00:39:14.590
You had some claims filed by people who
worked in maintenance at the time they

491
00:39:14.590 --> 00:39:15.590
filed the claim.

492
00:39:15.210 --> 00:39:16.210
True?

493
00:39:15.850 --> 00:39:16.850
Yes, sir.

494
00:39:16.550 --> 00:39:17.550
Some were carpenters?

495
00:39:18.730 --> 00:39:21.210
Well, carpenters would be maintenance
people.

496
00:39:21.610 --> 00:39:22.790
Okay. Some were security guards?

497
00:39:24.640 --> 00:39:27.720
I don't recall any claim by a security
guard.

498
00:39:27.880 --> 00:39:29.700
Steam fitters? Or pipe fitters?

499
00:39:29.860 --> 00:39:31.860
Well, that would be included in
maintenance.

500
00:39:32.200 --> 00:39:37.620
Okay. Is it also true that sometime
between

501
00:39:37.620 --> 00:39:39.500
1957 and 1960,

502
00:39:39.860 --> 00:39:42.200
when you went to corporate headquarters,

503
00:39:42.580 --> 00:39:45.220
that there was an increase in the
incidence of

504
00:39:45.220 --> 00:39:50.020
asbestos related lung cancer claims filed
by manville employees no

505
00:39:52.290 --> 00:39:54.050
i i don't agree with

506
00:39:54.050 --> 00:39:59.630
that let me rephrase that is it your
testimony let me rephrase that

507
00:39:59.630 --> 00:40:01.830
to your knowledge and recollection

508
00:40:01.830 --> 00:40:07.590
were there any asbestosis or asbestos
related lung cancer claims filed by
manville employees

509
00:40:07.590 --> 00:40:12.470
between 1957 and 1959. i'm going to object
to that on two grounds one it's compound
two

510
00:40:12.470 --> 00:40:17.890
Two, I will object on grounds that I

511
00:40:17.890 --> 00:40:20.670
think it requires a medical conclusion

512
00:40:20.670 --> 00:40:24.190
with regard to what constitutes
asbestosis.

513
00:40:24.510 --> 00:40:26.990
I would try to question on the basis of
the compound objection.

514
00:40:27.250 --> 00:40:32.590
Between 1957 and 1960, did you see

515
00:40:32.590 --> 00:40:36.770
any workman's compensation claims filed by
Manville employees

516
00:40:36.770 --> 00:40:42.710
wherein the employee was claiming that he
or she was

517
00:40:42.710 --> 00:40:46.230
suffering from some form of asbestos-
related lung cancer.

518
00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:55.220
I don't recall claims in that time frame
where

519
00:40:57.080 --> 00:41:01.940
lung cancer as an occupational disease was
alleged.

520
00:41:02.120 --> 00:41:03.120
No, sir.

521
00:41:03.420 --> 00:41:07.990
Were there any, between 1950s, let me
rephrase that,

522
00:41:07.990 --> 00:41:13.870
Were there any claims filed by Manville
employees

523
00:41:13.870 --> 00:41:17.430
before you went to headquarters in 1960

524
00:41:17.430 --> 00:41:23.190
wherein the employee alleged that he or
she was suffering from

525
00:41:23.190 --> 00:41:26.490
some form of asbestosis and cancer?

526
00:41:29.970 --> 00:41:35.480
I don't recall any claims where the

527
00:41:35.480 --> 00:41:40.450
petitioner alleged that

528
00:41:42.660 --> 00:41:44.020
type of disease, no.

529
00:41:44.020 --> 00:41:47.720
Is it true? Well, let me rephrase that.

530
00:41:47.980 --> 00:41:53.610
Were there some workman's compensation
claims

531
00:41:53.610 --> 00:41:57.590
filed by Manville employees between 1957
and 1960

532
00:41:57.590 --> 00:42:03.570
wherein Saranac Labs made a diagnosis on
behalf of Johns-Manville of

533
00:42:03.570 --> 00:42:04.770
a specialist related to cancer?

534
00:42:08.410 --> 00:42:12.290
To the best of my knowledge, no.

535
00:42:12.410 --> 00:42:13.410
When you went...

536
00:42:13.330 --> 00:42:15.050
Not at Manville location.

537
00:42:15.050 --> 00:42:20.750
Okay. And so far, as you recall, there
were no claims filed by any

538
00:42:20.750 --> 00:42:21.750
Manville employees

539
00:42:21.630 --> 00:42:26.910
prior to you going to headquarters in
1960, wherein there was an allegation of

540
00:42:26.910 --> 00:42:28.710
asbestos-related

541
00:42:28.710 --> 00:42:32.550
cancer. None that I recall, no, sir.

542
00:42:32.690 --> 00:42:35.670
And no claims filed prior to the time you
went to

543
00:42:35.670 --> 00:42:40.570
headquarters in 1960 wherein there was an
allegation that the Manville employee was

544
00:42:40.570 --> 00:42:43.190
suffering from occupationally induced
cancer

545
00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:51.220
occupationally induced yes do you
understand

546
00:42:51.220 --> 00:42:56.460
the question mr sheckler i i'm afraid i i
i just got the impression it was the same

547
00:42:56.460 --> 00:42:57.460
question asked

548
00:42:57.120 --> 00:43:02.600
over again but would you clarify sure i
meant it to be a little bit broader uh

549
00:43:02.600 --> 00:43:04.480
were there any claims

550
00:43:04.480 --> 00:43:10.140
filed by any manville employees between
1957 and 1960 before you went to corporate
headquarters

551
00:43:10.140 --> 00:43:16.000
quarters, wherein the employee alleged
that he or she was suffering from some

552
00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:17.000
form of

553
00:43:16.660 --> 00:43:22.720
cancer that they alleged was
occupationally caused, like that they
developed as a consequence

554
00:43:22.720 --> 00:43:24.220
of their employment at the Manville
facility.

555
00:43:24.640 --> 00:43:30.680
I don't recall any such claim in that
time.

556
00:43:30.900 --> 00:43:31.900
No, sir.

557
00:43:31.720 --> 00:43:36.740
From 1960 until 1967, while you were the
manager of the Industrial Health Program,

558
00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:41.160
you did have responsibility for
administering the workman's compensation
program at all

559
00:43:41.160 --> 00:43:45.000
of john's manville's self-insured
facilities that is self-insured for
workman's

560
00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:46.000
comp is that true

561
00:43:45.680 --> 00:43:50.160
yes sir that's true and so your
responsibilities for administering the
workman's compensation

562
00:43:50.160 --> 00:43:56.120
program from 1960 to 1967 included the
manville facility true it did yes sir it

563
00:43:56.120 --> 00:43:57.120
included the

564
00:43:56.600 --> 00:44:01.440
waukegan facility true yes sir it included
the nassau facility true the nashville

565
00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:02.440
yes yes sir

566
00:44:02.760 --> 00:44:08.700
now is it true that sometime between 1960
and 1967 there was

567
00:44:08.700 --> 00:44:09.780
an increase in the incidence

568
00:44:09.780 --> 00:44:15.760
of asbestos-related cancer claims filed by
Manville employees, to

569
00:44:15.760 --> 00:44:16.760
your knowledge.

570
00:44:16.880 --> 00:44:18.340
Again, I'm going to object.

571
00:44:18.440 --> 00:44:23.520
Do you mean that the allegation was that
there was cancer caused in some form or
fashion?

572
00:44:23.900 --> 00:44:24.900
I'll rephrase the question.

573
00:44:27.090 --> 00:44:32.290
At any time from 1960 to 1967, while you
were the

574
00:44:32.290 --> 00:44:35.110
manager of the industrial health program
for Johns-Manville,

575
00:44:35.670 --> 00:44:37.390
were there any workman's compensation?

576
00:44:37.670 --> 00:44:38.870
Let me rephrase that.

577
00:44:39.010 --> 00:44:40.130
Let me withdraw the entire question.

578
00:44:40.130 --> 00:44:45.670
Question. Between 1960 and 1967, did you
notice any increase in the incidence of

579
00:44:45.670 --> 00:44:49.090
asbestos-related cancer claims filed by
Manville employees?

580
00:45:07.870 --> 00:45:10.410
Cases of alleged

581
00:45:13.000 --> 00:45:18.960
pulmonary cancer between 1960

582
00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:20.780
and 1967.

583
00:45:25.690 --> 00:45:26.850
Have you finished your answer, sir?

584
00:45:27.010 --> 00:45:28.230
I think so, yes, sir.

585
00:45:28.350 --> 00:45:29.570
Filed by Manville employees?

586
00:45:33.170 --> 00:45:38.830
Yes, there, there, I remember at least one
case that was filed by a Manville
employee.

587
00:45:38.830 --> 00:45:44.770
Okay. When do you recall, when do you
recall the first occasion

588
00:45:44.770 --> 00:45:49.170
wherein you saw an asbestos-related
pulmonary cancer case

589
00:45:50.270 --> 00:45:53.930
alleged in a work comp claim by a Manville
employee, approximately?

590
00:45:54.470 --> 00:45:57.890
I can't answer that question. I don't
recall, Mr. O'Reilly.

591
00:45:57.990 --> 00:45:59.830
Are we talking about some time prior to
1964?

592
00:46:01.770 --> 00:46:03.610
I don't believe so. No, sir.

593
00:46:03.610 --> 00:46:07.750
I think we're talking sometime in the 66

594
00:46:07.750 --> 00:46:11.130
time frame.

595
00:46:11.570 --> 00:46:12.570
1966?

596
00:46:12.630 --> 00:46:13.630
Yeah.

597
00:46:13.090 --> 00:46:14.090
Yes, sir.

598
00:46:13.890 --> 00:46:19.730
Between 1960 and 1967, can you tell us how
many claims you

599
00:46:19.730 --> 00:46:21.670
recall filed by Manville employees

600
00:46:22.390 --> 00:46:26.850
wherein there was an allegation or a claim
of asbestos-related pulmonary cancer?

601
00:46:29.140 --> 00:46:31.760
Well, I'm going to object on the basis of
the task and answer it, but...

602
00:46:32.560 --> 00:46:35.730
What did I ask him then?

603
00:46:35.730 --> 00:46:39.630
We just gave you the answer. I'm not sure
that's exactly the question you asked,

604
00:46:39.690 --> 00:46:40.910
but he did give you the answer.

605
00:46:40.930 --> 00:46:44.410
That's a previous question and answer.
Perhaps that'll help us figure it out.

606
00:46:50.530 --> 00:46:52.170
Three questions back, I think.

607
00:46:52.230 --> 00:46:53.230
Oh, three?

608
00:46:52.710 --> 00:46:53.710
Yeah.

609
00:46:59.050 --> 00:47:00.050
Let me do it this way.

610
00:47:00.050 --> 00:47:01.050
When do you recall?

611
00:47:00.710 --> 00:47:01.710
Let me try it this way.

612
00:47:01.650 --> 00:47:02.870
He said he remembered one.

613
00:47:03.350 --> 00:47:06.150
Yeah, I'll just ask him if he remembers
any more than one claim.

614
00:47:06.370 --> 00:47:07.370
Okay, fine.

615
00:47:07.450 --> 00:47:08.450
Can you draw the previous question?

616
00:47:08.330 --> 00:47:09.330
Yes, sir.

617
00:47:14.920 --> 00:47:19.640
Do you recall there being more than one
claim filed by a Manville employee between

618
00:47:19.640 --> 00:47:21.120
1960 and 1967

619
00:47:21.120 --> 00:47:26.860
1967, wherein the employee claimed that he
or she was suffering from some form of

620
00:47:26.860 --> 00:47:28.340
asbestos-related pulmonary cancer.

621
00:47:35.870 --> 00:47:42.270
In that time frame, Mr. O'Reilly, I
remember just one claim.

622
00:47:42.450 --> 00:47:48.230
I don't recall whether there were more
than one or whether there was more than

623
00:47:48.230 --> 00:47:49.230
one or not.

624
00:48:00.220 --> 00:48:05.540
At any time between 1952

625
00:48:05.540 --> 00:48:09.600
and 1964, when you read Dr.

626
00:48:09.740 --> 00:48:11.040
Selikoff's preliminary study,

627
00:48:11.820 --> 00:48:17.240
by the way, Mr. Sheckler, when
approximately in 1964 did you first see or
glance at

628
00:48:17.240 --> 00:48:20.580
or read Dr. Sheckler's preliminary, Dr.
Selikoff's preliminary study?

629
00:48:21.040 --> 00:48:22.040
April.

630
00:48:25.640 --> 00:48:26.800
April 1964?

631
00:48:27.120 --> 00:48:28.140
April of 1964.

632
00:48:28.140 --> 00:48:32.860
1964. And when did you personally first
hear, or when were you first surprised,

633
00:48:32.980 --> 00:48:34.300
that Dr. Selikoff

634
00:48:34.300 --> 00:48:40.080
had arrived at some preliminary findings
or opinions with respect to a study he was
doing?

635
00:48:40.460 --> 00:48:45.770
Well, that was my first knowledge

636
00:48:45.770 --> 00:48:48.970
of Dr.

637
00:48:49.270 --> 00:48:52.750
Selikoff having arrived at conclusions.

638
00:48:52.930 --> 00:48:54.490
I knew he had been

639
00:48:54.490 --> 00:48:59.350
doing, it was general knowledge he had
been doing this epidemiological study,

640
00:48:59.670 --> 00:49:01.950
and in fact

641
00:49:02.770 --> 00:49:08.610
there was conversation, discussion about

642
00:49:08.610 --> 00:49:13.870
it, but April of 1964 is the

643
00:49:13.870 --> 00:49:15.450
first knowledge I

644
00:49:15.450 --> 00:49:21.730
had of the preliminary reports or analysis
of what he was doing.

645
00:49:21.730 --> 00:49:27.130
Oh. Prior to April 1964, you were aware
that Dr.

646
00:49:27.490 --> 00:49:32.510
Selikoff was performing a study of
insulation workers in New Jersey.

647
00:49:32.670 --> 00:49:33.670
Is that true?

648
00:49:34.310 --> 00:49:40.290
New Jersey, New York areas. The two locals
were involved, yes, sir.

649
00:49:40.390 --> 00:49:45.870
But prior to April 1964, you were not
aware and had not heard of any preliminary

650
00:49:45.870 --> 00:49:48.510
findings or conclusions of Dr. Selikoff.
Is that true?

651
00:49:48.650 --> 00:49:51.070
I had not heard of any conclusions, no,
sir.

652
00:49:51.070 --> 00:49:55.490
had you heard of any findings of dr
selikoff prior to seeing the preliminary
report

653
00:49:55.490 --> 00:49:56.490
in april 1964.

654
00:50:00.540 --> 00:50:06.460
not not not as such no sir okay so would
it be fair to say that the only

655
00:50:06.460 --> 00:50:07.620
information you had

656
00:50:07.620 --> 00:50:13.420
about dr selikoff's study was that he was
conducting a survey of installation
workers

657
00:50:13.420 --> 00:50:16.900
at certain locals in new jersey in new
york prior to april 64.

658
00:50:17.260 --> 00:50:19.660
yes sir at any

659
00:50:23.250 --> 00:50:27.130
time prior to april

660
00:50:27.130 --> 00:50:32.550
of 1964 did you personally have any
opinion or knowledge

661
00:50:32.550 --> 00:50:37.610
as to how much asbestos fibers were

662
00:50:37.610 --> 00:50:42.650
required to induce or increase the risk of
pulmonary cancer no

663
00:50:44.480 --> 00:50:46.740
sir did you have any knowledge

664
00:50:46.740 --> 00:50:52.120
at any time prior to april of 64 as to how
little or how much exposure was required

665
00:50:52.120 --> 00:50:54.620
before a person's

666
00:50:54.620 --> 00:50:58.880
chances of contacting pulmonary cancer
were affected by asbestos inhalation?

667
00:51:02.110 --> 00:51:05.230
I would like to have that question read
back, please.

668
00:51:05.890 --> 00:51:08.070
I'll rephrase it because it was rather
cumbersome.

669
00:51:09.110 --> 00:51:12.510
Were you aware at any time prior to
reading Dr. Selikoff's report

670
00:51:12.510 --> 00:51:17.070
of how much or how little exposure to
asbestos was required

671
00:51:17.070 --> 00:51:22.830
before a person could develop pulmonary
cancer

672
00:51:22.830 --> 00:51:26.050
or have his or her chances of contacting
it increased?

673
00:51:29.610 --> 00:51:34.850
I'll rephrase it. I'll rephrase it. At any
time prior to reading Dr.

674
00:51:34.930 --> 00:51:35.930
Selikoff's

675
00:51:35.490 --> 00:51:41.690
pulmonary study in April of 1964, did you
have any opinion as to how little or how
much

676
00:51:41.690 --> 00:51:48.570
asbestos exposure was required before the
asbestos fiber inhalation could induce
pulmonary

677
00:51:48.570 --> 00:51:49.570
cancer?

678
00:51:49.270 --> 00:51:50.270
No, sir.

679
00:51:49.990 --> 00:51:50.990
Okay.

680
00:51:50.430 --> 00:51:51.430
Go ahead.

681
00:51:51.190 --> 00:51:52.190
Sorry. No, sir.

682
00:51:52.050 --> 00:51:55.110
At any time prior to April of 64, when you
read Dr.

683
00:51:55.370 --> 00:51:57.310
Selikoff's preliminary study,

684
00:51:57.550 --> 00:52:02.490
did you have any knowledge or information
as to how much or how little asbestos

685
00:52:02.490 --> 00:52:04.590
fiber exposure was required before

686
00:52:05.250 --> 00:52:09.410
asbestos fiber inhalation would increase a
person's chances of contracting

687
00:52:09.410 --> 00:52:11.390
pulmonary cancer?

688
00:52:11.610 --> 00:52:13.710
I will object to assuming a fact, not an
evidence.

689
00:52:21.580 --> 00:52:27.580
In approximately 1958 or 1959, while you
were still Supervisor

690
00:52:27.580 --> 00:52:30.140
of Safety at the Manville Complex,

691
00:52:30.760 --> 00:52:35.440
your superiors at headquarters in New York
advised you to contact a Dr.

692
00:52:35.560 --> 00:52:36.740
Burroughs. Is that true?

693
00:52:40.610 --> 00:52:41.610
Yes, sir.

694
00:52:41.840 --> 00:52:47.470
And your superiors in New York advised you
at some time in 1958 or 1959

695
00:52:47.470 --> 00:52:52.090
1959 that a dr. Burroughs in New Jersey
had a list.

696
00:52:52.190 --> 00:52:55.010
I'm sorry. Is that b-o-r-r-o-w burrow?

697
00:52:55.590 --> 00:52:58.930
Or burrows you recall I think it's dr.

698
00:52:59.250 --> 00:53:01.530
Burrow b-o-r-r-o-w

699
00:53:01.530 --> 00:53:08.330
I don't believe there's an S on thank you
at some time in 1958 or 1959 your

700
00:53:09.010 --> 00:53:10.250
superiors in New York

701
00:53:10.750 --> 00:53:15.770
advised you that Dr. Borow in New Jersey
had a list of

702
00:53:15.770 --> 00:53:17.270
mesothelioma patients

703
00:53:17.470 --> 00:53:19.010
that he was treating. Is that true?

704
00:53:25.340 --> 00:53:30.420
He had a list of patients who

705
00:53:30.420 --> 00:53:31.960
he

706
00:53:40.000 --> 00:53:43.320
assumed had mesothelioma.

707
00:53:44.080 --> 00:53:51.580
I draw this distinction because himself
indicated

708
00:53:53.350 --> 00:53:58.570
that this was a very, very difficult
disease to diagnose

709
00:53:58.570 --> 00:54:01.210
except on autopsy.

710
00:54:03.910 --> 00:54:09.990
Did your superiors in New York in 1958 or
1959 advise you or inform you

711
00:54:09.990 --> 00:54:12.690
that this Dr. Borow that you were to
contact

712
00:54:12.690 --> 00:54:17.850
had a number of patients in which he had
diagnosed mesothelioma?

713
00:54:18.070 --> 00:54:21.280
Meaning Dr. Borow?

714
00:54:21.320 --> 00:54:22.320
Yes.

715
00:54:28.610 --> 00:54:29.610
No.

716
00:54:31.250 --> 00:54:34.690
Did your superiors in New York advise you
in 1958 or 1959

717
00:54:34.690 --> 00:54:38.410
that Dr. Borow had a list of patients in
which he felt

718
00:54:38.410 --> 00:54:41.410
the patients were suffering from
mesothelioma?

719
00:54:41.630 --> 00:54:42.630
Yes, sir.

720
00:54:42.110 --> 00:54:46.710
and did your superiors in New York advise
you to contact Dr.

721
00:54:46.770 --> 00:54:47.770
Burrow

722
00:54:47.050 --> 00:54:50.910
because Dr. Borow wanted to ask some
questions about the employment history of

723
00:54:50.910 --> 00:54:51.910
these people?

724
00:54:51.570 --> 00:54:52.570
That's correct.

725
00:54:53.150 --> 00:54:56.270
And at that time, that is 1958 or 1959,

726
00:54:56.810 --> 00:55:00.490
when your superiors at corporate
headquarters in New York City advised you
to

727
00:55:00.490 --> 00:55:01.950
contact Dr. Borow in New Jersey,

728
00:55:02.150 --> 00:55:04.870
were you aware of what mesothelioma was?

729
00:55:13.800 --> 00:55:14.800
Vaguely.

730
00:55:14.780 --> 00:55:19.780
Were you aware at that time, that is 1958
or 1959, when you contacted Dr.

731
00:55:19.940 --> 00:55:20.940
Burrow,

732
00:55:20.300 --> 00:55:25.640
that mesothelioma was a form of cancer of
the mesothelium surrounding the lung?

733
00:55:32.660 --> 00:55:34.260
Yes, I think so.

734
00:55:34.620 --> 00:55:40.440
And were you aware in 1958 or 1959 that
mesothelioma was a highly

735
00:55:40.440 --> 00:55:42.780
virulent form of cancer that was always
fatal?

736
00:55:51.880 --> 00:55:56.760
Mr. O'Reilly, I find it difficult to
answer that question.

737
00:55:56.760 --> 00:56:02.340
I don't know precisely a

738
00:56:02.340 --> 00:56:05.460
date when I learned these facts.

739
00:56:05.860 --> 00:56:11.820
Okay. Did you, at some time, 1958 or 1959,

740
00:56:12.180 --> 00:56:13.920
contact Dr. Borow?

741
00:56:14.120 --> 00:56:15.120
Yes, sir.

742
00:56:15.160 --> 00:56:18.740
And was Dr. Borow a general physician that
had an office

743
00:56:18.740 --> 00:56:21.100
where he practiced medicine in the state
of New Jersey?

744
00:56:21.500 --> 00:56:25.480
To the best of my knowledge, Dr. Borow was
a general practitioner

745
00:56:25.480 --> 00:56:30.760
who might I say was was

746
00:56:30.760 --> 00:56:36.560
partially specializing or

747
00:56:36.560 --> 00:56:38.080
much interested in

748
00:56:38.080 --> 00:56:43.880
pulmonary diseases and where was his
practice located Bound Brook

749
00:56:43.880 --> 00:56:44.880
New Jersey

750
00:56:44.540 --> 00:56:50.040
and approximately how far away from the
Manville complex was dr.

751
00:56:50.200 --> 00:56:51.200
burrows office

752
00:56:50.940 --> 00:56:55.440
where he practiced medicine 10 or 12 miles
give or take when

753
00:56:56.820 --> 00:56:57.820
you contacted

754
00:56:57.640 --> 00:57:03.500
to Dr. Borow in 1958 or 1959, did he
provide you

755
00:57:03.500 --> 00:57:06.040
with this list of people that he was
treating

756
00:57:06.040 --> 00:57:07.040
for this disease?

757
00:57:08.260 --> 00:57:09.600
He did, yes, sir.

758
00:57:09.680 --> 00:57:15.640
And did he ask you if you would determine
to what extent the people on the

759
00:57:15.640 --> 00:57:16.640
list were

760
00:57:16.160 --> 00:57:19.320
employed at the Manville complex at some
point in time in the past?

761
00:57:24.340 --> 00:57:30.180
So his question was, were they employed,
and if

762
00:57:30.180 --> 00:57:36.120
so, would I provide him with some
background

763
00:57:36.120 --> 00:57:38.260
information of their employment?

764
00:57:39.220 --> 00:57:43.440
And were there approximately 18 to 20
names on the list that Dr.

765
00:57:43.520 --> 00:57:44.520
Burrow provided you?

766
00:57:44.220 --> 00:57:49.100
I don't recall the precise number, but I
would,

767
00:57:49.220 --> 00:57:55.380
I assume that that was approximately the
size of the list, yes, sir.

768
00:57:57.530 --> 00:58:03.450
And when you took the list back to
Manville Complex, did you review some of

769
00:58:03.450 --> 00:58:08.810
the Manville records to determine to what
extent, if any, these people may have

770
00:58:08.810 --> 00:58:10.690
been employed at the Manville Complex at
some time?

771
00:58:19.610 --> 00:58:24.470
I searched all of the available employment
records

772
00:58:24.470 --> 00:58:30.470
and requested the medical department to
search the medical records to

773
00:58:30.470 --> 00:58:33.330
make a determination as to whether or not
they were employed.

774
00:58:33.690 --> 00:58:38.750
And did you personally discover that
approximately eight to ten of the people
on

775
00:58:38.750 --> 00:58:42.470
the list were employed at the Manville
complex according to Manville records?

776
00:58:42.970 --> 00:58:44.170
Yes, sir, that's correct.

777
00:58:44.530 --> 00:58:46.910
And did you advise Dr. Borow of this fact?

778
00:58:47.810 --> 00:58:48.930
Yes, sir, I did.

779
00:58:48.930 --> 00:58:52.470
And were some of these people that were on
the list,

780
00:58:52.510 --> 00:58:56.070
wherein you determined they were employed
at the Manville complex at some point in
time,

781
00:58:56.670 --> 00:59:00.530
were some of them production people,
according to the Manville records?

782
00:59:01.910 --> 00:59:06.490
I don't recall, Mr. O'Reilly, what their
function was.

783
00:59:08.830 --> 00:59:14.590
These people were employed in the very
early years of the

784
00:59:14.590 --> 00:59:15.590
Manville plan,

785
00:59:15.470 --> 00:59:20.850
and I'm talking about between 1912 and

786
00:59:20.850 --> 00:59:23.350
the 1920s,

787
00:59:23.350 --> 00:59:28.570
and the records merely indicated their
employment.

788
00:59:28.730 --> 00:59:31.890
There were no job descriptions or
indications

789
00:59:32.280 --> 00:59:36.530
on where, how, or what jobs they worked
on.

790
00:59:36.750 --> 00:59:41.820
There may have been one or two

791
00:59:41.820 --> 00:59:46.340
where we might have been able to designate
job description,

792
00:59:46.340 --> 00:59:52.140
but most of them were old records do you
recall that you were

793
00:59:52.140 --> 00:59:54.480
able to discern that some of the

794
00:59:54.480 --> 00:59:58.900
people were production people and some
were maintenance people on this list of

795
00:59:58.900 --> 00:59:59.900
names that

796
00:59:59.400 --> 01:00:04.300
you verified were employed at the Manville
facility at some time well

797
01:00:06.580 --> 01:00:10.340
I I don't recall

798
01:00:10.340 --> 01:00:15.980
recall being able to do that, and one of
the reasons that would be very difficult
would

799
01:00:15.980 --> 01:00:21.100
be that 95 plus

800
01:00:22.760 --> 01:00:27.820
or minus percent of the maintenance people
were production people before they

801
01:00:27.820 --> 01:00:31.580
went into maintenance. It all ran
together.

802
01:00:32.080 --> 01:00:39.580
The maintenance jobs were usually given to

803
01:00:39.860 --> 01:00:43.080
those employees who had worked in
production are

804
01:00:48.110 --> 01:00:49.310
you talking now about

805
01:00:49.310 --> 01:00:55.650
during your tenure at the Manville complex
from 1952 to 1959 yes sir during

806
01:00:55.650 --> 01:01:00.750
that period of time 1952 to 1959 you
observed some production people

807
01:01:00.750 --> 01:01:05.370
transferred to maintenance most of the
maintenance people had been transferred

808
01:01:05.370 --> 01:01:10.350
out of some form of production job and the
company's

809
01:01:10.350 --> 01:01:14.150
procedure or policy if you

810
01:01:14.150 --> 01:01:19.610
will was to to train them in house very
few maintenance people were hired from

811
01:01:19.610 --> 01:01:25.330
outside was that was that because were
they transferred

812
01:01:25.330 --> 01:01:26.850
because of the

813
01:01:26.850 --> 01:01:30.290
condition of their lungs from working with
the fibers no sir they were

814
01:01:30.290 --> 01:01:36.050
transferred because maintenance was a
choice a choice job as far as

815
01:01:36.050 --> 01:01:38.310
as pay was

816
01:01:38.310 --> 01:01:43.450
concerned when you provided the
information to dr.

817
01:01:43.470 --> 01:01:44.470
burrow as to what you

818
01:01:44.450 --> 01:01:48.230
had found out from your search of the
Manville records. Did Dr.

819
01:01:48.350 --> 01:01:49.630
Burrow at some point in time

820
01:01:49.630 --> 01:01:54.850
subsequent to that advise you that he
would like to do a research study

821
01:01:54.850 --> 01:01:57.170
on employees of

822
01:01:57.170 --> 01:01:59.670
the Manville facility on the mesothelioma
question?

823
01:02:02.200 --> 01:02:04.720
No, sir. Dr. Borow never advised me of
that.

824
01:02:05.260 --> 01:02:10.840
In approximately 1960, 1961, when you were
at corporate headquarters

825
01:02:10.840 --> 01:02:11.840
as manager

826
01:02:11.620 --> 01:02:17.140
of the industrial health program did you
become familiar with dr wagner's study

827
01:02:17.140 --> 01:02:19.220
that was performed

828
01:02:19.220 --> 01:02:25.120
in africa sometime after i went to

829
01:02:25.120 --> 01:02:30.960
general headquarters and i can't pinpoint
the time i was

830
01:02:30.960 --> 01:02:35.340
made aware of dr

831
01:02:37.810 --> 01:02:43.710
wagner's studies and i i make that plural
because there were two studies done

832
01:02:47.220 --> 01:02:53.180
was one of that let me rephrase that did
one of dr wagner's studies at least

833
01:02:53.180 --> 01:02:54.180
according to your

834
01:02:54.040 --> 01:02:59.260
understanding of the study when you read
it did one of them disclose

835
01:02:59.260 --> 01:03:03.200
that he found incidences of

836
01:03:03.200 --> 01:03:08.600
mesothelioma among people that lived and
worked in the vicinity of an asbestos

837
01:03:08.600 --> 01:03:09.720
fiber crocidolite

838
01:03:09.720 --> 01:03:14.040
asbestos fiber mine in africa i'd like to
interpose an objection and i'd like a
discussion

839
01:03:14.040 --> 01:03:20.000
so I'd like to go off the tape if I can no
no discussion well I don't care of

840
01:03:20.000 --> 01:03:21.000
course

841
01:03:24.280 --> 01:03:29.260
at that time that you read first read or
glanced at dr.

842
01:03:29.260 --> 01:03:30.820
Wagner study when you

843
01:03:30.820 --> 01:03:33.540
were the manager of the industrial health
program a corporate headquarters

844
01:03:33.540 --> 01:03:39.460
between 1960 1967 did you get the
impression that dr.

845
01:03:39.460 --> 01:03:40.600
Wagner in one of the

846
01:03:40.600 --> 01:03:45.560
the studies had discovered cases of
mesothelioma

847
01:03:45.560 --> 01:03:50.040
in people that lived in the vicinity of a

848
01:03:50.040 --> 01:03:53.220
crocidolite asbestos mine in Africa my

849
01:03:57.800 --> 01:04:01.240
impression of dr. Wagner study dr.

850
01:04:03.580 --> 01:04:06.080
Wagner's first study was

851
01:04:07.840 --> 01:04:13.280
was that he found mesothelioma in the

852
01:04:13.280 --> 01:04:18.980
natives who lived in the Cape area of
South Africa

853
01:04:19.280 --> 01:04:24.660
and worked in the

854
01:04:24.660 --> 01:04:27.760
crocidolite asbestos mines.

855
01:04:28.180 --> 01:04:32.530
And these people lived under the
conditions

856
01:04:32.530 --> 01:04:38.470
whereas their huts and their streets and
what have

857
01:04:38.470 --> 01:04:44.230
you were all paved with the tailings of
the crocidolite.

858
01:04:44.430 --> 01:04:47.900
When I read Dr.

859
01:04:48.000 --> 01:04:52.480
Wagner's or glanced at Dr. Wagner's second
study,

860
01:04:57.390 --> 01:05:03.820
I got the impression that he went to the
Transvaal area of South Africa,

861
01:05:04.680 --> 01:05:10.480
with which are whereas the conditions were
quite the same

862
01:05:10.480 --> 01:05:11.640
as they were in the

863
01:05:11.640 --> 01:05:17.480
Cape area however in the Transvaal area

864
01:05:17.480 --> 01:05:20.580
he could find no mesothelioma so of

865
01:05:20.580 --> 01:05:25.820
course this left a tremendous void in the
in the scientific

866
01:05:25.820 --> 01:05:29.610
knowledge move to

867
01:05:29.610 --> 01:05:32.630
strike the latter part of the answer is
not responsive I don't remember at what

868
01:05:32.630 --> 01:05:36.010
point in time the witness went into
another study that was done in another

869
01:05:36.010 --> 01:05:41.790
other place thank you sir now with respect
these

870
01:05:41.790 --> 01:05:43.530
studies they both came out

871
01:05:43.530 --> 01:05:48.980
at the same time do they not no sir I
think dr.

872
01:05:49.100 --> 01:05:51.360
Wagner second study came out

873
01:05:52.460 --> 01:05:56.920
sometime after the first study
approximately when I don't recall

874
01:05:59.740 --> 01:06:04.460
didn't you learn about them both at the
same time I may have learned about them

875
01:06:04.460 --> 01:06:08.400
at the same time but that doesn't mean
they were published at the same time when

876
01:06:08.400 --> 01:06:09.540
you first learned

877
01:06:09.540 --> 01:06:15.540
of these two studies isn't it true that dr
wagner's first study

878
01:06:15.540 --> 01:06:16.900
about the natives

879
01:06:17.600 --> 01:06:22.320
or the people that lived in the area of
the crocidolite asbestos mine isn't it

880
01:06:22.320 --> 01:06:23.320
true that

881
01:06:22.900 --> 01:06:28.760
he found incidents of mesothelioma among
people who had never worked at the

882
01:06:28.760 --> 01:06:30.060
mine i'll object on

883
01:06:30.060 --> 01:06:36.060
best evidence let me rephrase that wasn't
your impression of the first study of dr

884
01:06:36.060 --> 01:06:37.140
wagner that

885
01:06:37.140 --> 01:06:43.320
he that is dr wagner had found some cases
of mesothelioma in people who had never
worked

886
01:06:43.320 --> 01:06:48.500
at the asbestos mine but had just lived in
the area my impression of

887
01:06:48.500 --> 01:06:51.680
chris wagner's

888
01:06:51.680 --> 01:06:56.040
first study was that these people worked

889
01:06:58.790 --> 01:07:02.190
at the mines so the entire families worked
at the mines

890
01:07:02.970 --> 01:07:05.470
If you will, they lived there and worked
there.

891
01:07:13.270 --> 01:07:17.050
I'd like to read from the deposition
testimony of Mr.

892
01:07:17.190 --> 01:07:21.690
Sheckler, taken on Tuesday, January 5,
1982,

893
01:07:22.110 --> 01:07:25.230
in the caption of Dorothy St. Jacques et
al. v.

894
01:07:25.410 --> 01:07:30.690
Johns-Manville Corporation et al., volume
2, page 213.

895
01:07:32.730 --> 01:07:36.830
Starting on line 20, going

896
01:07:40.700 --> 01:07:43.000
over to line 18 on page 214.

897
01:07:46.010 --> 01:07:47.670
Would you mind if I come back?

898
01:07:47.950 --> 01:07:48.950
I don't have it over here.

899
01:07:59.420 --> 01:08:00.420
No, I'm good.

900
01:08:10.070 --> 01:08:14.230
Okay, this is questioning of Mr. Sheckler
on page 213, line 20.

901
01:08:15.450 --> 01:08:17.570
Question, was it your impression from this
study,

902
01:08:17.690 --> 01:08:20.210
that is the first Wagner study that you
referred to,

903
01:08:20.350 --> 01:08:23.090
that all of the people in which he found
Mesothelioma

904
01:08:23.090 --> 01:08:24.490
were employees at this mine?

905
01:08:25.210 --> 01:08:26.210
I don't hear you.

906
01:08:26.250 --> 01:08:27.910
Were employees at this mine?

907
01:08:29.210 --> 01:08:32.990
Answer, people that he studied, and I
think, I'll answer your question,

908
01:08:32.990 --> 01:08:37.490
I think the study speaks for itself
question well it probably does I am

909
01:08:37.490 --> 01:08:41.550
asking about your impressions from the
study though the study can't tell me

910
01:08:41.550 --> 01:08:45.430
what you gathered from the study that's
why I'm asking you did you gather from

911
01:08:45.430 --> 01:08:49.890
your reading or glancing at dr. Wagner's
first study that is where he found cases

912
01:08:49.890 --> 01:08:54.470
of mesothelioma and people that lived in
the vicinity of the crocidolite mind did

913
01:08:54.470 --> 01:08:58.910
you gather all the cases of mesothelioma
that dr. Wagner found or employees who

914
01:08:58.910 --> 01:09:01.490
who worked in the mine or worked with
crocidolite asbestos?

915
01:09:02.270 --> 01:09:04.990
Answer. I don't know. I can't really
answer that question.

916
01:09:05.690 --> 01:09:09.170
Dr. Wagner's first study included a group
of people who lived at the mine

917
01:09:09.170 --> 01:09:12.510
whose huts were paved with tailings from
the mine, roads paved from tailings from

918
01:09:12.510 --> 01:09:13.510
the mine.

919
01:09:13.190 --> 01:09:15.690
Whether they were all employees or
partial... I'm sorry.

920
01:09:15.870 --> 01:09:20.690
Roads paved from tailings from the mine.

921
01:09:21.450 --> 01:09:25.170
Whether they were all employees or
partially employees, I really don't know.

922
01:09:25.290 --> 01:09:26.950
I have to go back and review the
literature.

923
01:09:26.950 --> 01:09:30.630
that ends on line 18 page 214 is

924
01:09:33.260 --> 01:09:36.360
it true that you did gather from dr.

925
01:09:36.380 --> 01:09:37.380
Wagner's

926
01:09:36.820 --> 01:09:42.060
first study that he had found a number of
cases of mesothelioma in the group of

927
01:09:42.060 --> 01:09:47.480
people that he studied well now we're
talking two studies the first one around

928
01:09:47.480 --> 01:09:53.680
the first study yes sir that is true now
at that time did you let me rephrase

929
01:09:53.680 --> 01:09:58.580
that subsequent to your reading these
studies of dr. Wagner did you contact

930
01:09:58.580 --> 01:10:04.580
Dr. Borow in New Jersey and advise him or
inform him of the Wagner studies?

931
01:10:05.020 --> 01:10:08.980
I did not.

932
01:10:09.240 --> 01:10:12.700
Dr. Borow receives the medical literature,
I'm sure.

933
01:10:13.040 --> 01:10:17.100
Okay, move the strike. Everything after
Dr. Borow receives the medical literature

934
01:10:17.100 --> 01:10:18.100
is now responsive.

935
01:10:18.320 --> 01:10:19.320
That's correct.

936
01:10:19.720 --> 01:10:23.660
Did you advise or inform anyone at
corporate headquarters

937
01:10:25.040 --> 01:10:29.740
that maybe Dr. Borow should be notified
about the Wagner studies?

938
01:10:39.380 --> 01:10:42.100
no I did not I

939
01:10:45.560 --> 01:10:51.320
would have no reason for doing did you at
the time you read the

940
01:10:51.320 --> 01:10:56.460
dr. Wagner studies have any opinion or
knowledge as to how little or how much

941
01:10:56.460 --> 01:11:02.440
asbestos exposure was required to induce
mesothelioma dr.

942
01:11:02.620 --> 01:11:04.940
Wagner studies no

943
01:11:09.770 --> 01:11:15.760
no conclusion, in my opinion, as to how
much

944
01:11:15.760 --> 01:11:21.700
or how little or if any asbestos was
associated

945
01:11:21.700 --> 01:11:27.700
with the mesothelioma at that time. As I
mentioned

946
01:11:27.700 --> 01:11:33.500
a moment ago, these studies left a

947
01:11:33.500 --> 01:11:36.140
very questioned

948
01:11:42.650 --> 01:11:46.070
medical literature at that time, medical
knowledge at that time.

949
01:11:46.070 --> 01:11:51.790
move the strike the answer is not
responsive what I was asking

950
01:11:51.790 --> 01:11:53.010
about I'm

951
01:11:53.010 --> 01:11:56.990
sorry sir I was asking about his what he
personally felt and he referred me to

952
01:11:56.990 --> 01:11:59.330
dr. Wagner's study and conclusions and I
was not asking

953
01:11:59.330 --> 01:12:03.050
most of

954
01:12:03.050 --> 01:12:09.030
the strike okay did you that

955
01:12:09.030 --> 01:12:11.290
is a you personally mr. Sheckler have any

956
01:12:11.290 --> 01:12:16.470
opinion or knowledge when you read dr.
Wagner studies after you read them as to

957
01:12:16.470 --> 01:12:22.450
to how much or how little asbestos
exposure was required to induce or cause a
mesothelioma?

958
01:12:22.990 --> 01:12:27.050
I've, well, that question could be
answered yes or no, I suppose.

959
01:12:28.050 --> 01:12:29.670
I did not know, sir.

960
01:12:37.120 --> 01:12:42.220
At any time after you read Dr.

961
01:12:43.340 --> 01:12:47.480
Wagner's studies, did you advise or
suggest to anyone

962
01:12:47.480 --> 01:12:52.540
at Johns-Manville that perhaps studies or
research be undertaken to determine to
what

963
01:12:52.540 --> 01:12:57.440
extent if any asbestos fibers were
involved in the causation of mesothelioma
no

964
01:12:59.970 --> 01:13:01.690
sir okay after

965
01:13:01.690 --> 01:13:06.550
you talked with Dr. Borow for the first
time and verified that a number of the

966
01:13:06.550 --> 01:13:07.550
names on his list

967
01:13:07.510 --> 01:13:12.210
were manville employees did you recommend
or suggest to anyone at john's manville

968
01:13:12.210 --> 01:13:13.250
that perhaps

969
01:13:13.790 --> 01:13:19.270
research or studies be undertaken to
determine to what extent if any asbestos

970
01:13:19.270 --> 01:13:20.270
fibers were involved

971
01:13:20.050 --> 01:13:24.450
in a causation of mesothelioma no sir let
me

972
01:13:37.980 --> 01:13:39.980
take about three minutes okay so i can
make a quick

973
01:13:39.980 --> 01:13:43.740
run of the washroom and then we'll come
back and go to 11 45. is that right

974
01:13:43.740 --> 01:13:46.820
mr sheckler

975
01:13:57.030 --> 01:14:00.270
is it true that between 1957

976
01:14:02.420 --> 01:14:07.060
and 1959 while you were supervisor of
safety at the

977
01:14:07.060 --> 01:14:12.580
manville complex that there were a couple
of hundred work

978
01:14:12.580 --> 01:14:14.440
miscompensation claims filed by

979
01:14:14.440 --> 01:14:18.920
manville employees alleging asbestos
related lung disease a

980
01:14:35.200 --> 01:14:37.520
couple hundred means 200 or approximately

981
01:14:37.880 --> 01:14:43.600
yes sir that's very difficult for me to
answer i'm i'm not i

982
01:14:43.600 --> 01:14:49.450
can say this mr

983
01:14:49.450 --> 01:14:50.450
o'reilly there

984
01:14:51.170 --> 01:14:57.170
probably was that many occupational
disease claims filed but i can't

985
01:14:57.170 --> 01:14:58.170
say there was that

986
01:14:58.030 --> 01:15:05.530
many asbestos related occupational disease
claims filed i really don't know i'd like

987
01:15:07.130 --> 01:15:13.010
to read from the deposition of mr sheckler
taken in louisville kentucky on

988
01:15:13.010 --> 01:15:14.050
august 25 1978

989
01:15:15.710 --> 01:15:21.530
under the damewood d-a-m-e-w-o-o-d at all
versus john's

990
01:15:21.530 --> 01:15:23.670
manville sales corporation at all

991
01:15:24.350 --> 01:15:30.330
case number for damewood 1-78-170 and this
deposition

992
01:15:30.330 --> 01:15:32.050
has been referred to previously

993
01:15:32.050 --> 01:15:37.510
I'd like to read from page 93, beginning
with line 14, through page

994
01:15:37.510 --> 01:15:39.150
95, line 12.

995
01:15:39.410 --> 01:15:44.090
This is the questioning of Mr. Sheckler at
that deposition.

996
01:15:44.430 --> 01:15:50.370
That's two full pages, and to expedite, I
will reserve objection to the reading of

997
01:15:50.370 --> 01:15:51.370
the transcript

998
01:15:50.890 --> 01:15:56.270
or internal objection to the questions and
answers at the time the transcript was
prepared

999
01:15:58.960 --> 01:16:01.000
until a later time, and let you just read
it.

1000
01:16:01.180 --> 01:16:02.180
Okay.

1001
01:16:01.460 --> 01:16:05.680
Okay. This is page 93, line 14. Question.

1002
01:16:06.200 --> 01:16:07.920
This is a questioning of Mr. Sheckler.

1003
01:16:08.540 --> 01:16:11.900
Now, Mr. Sheckler, with reference to your
work at Manville, New Jersey,

1004
01:16:12.120 --> 01:16:17.420
how many occupational workman's
compensation claims did you process while
you were

1005
01:16:17.420 --> 01:16:18.420
down there

1006
01:16:17.900 --> 01:16:23.060
that dealt with employees in the plant
making a claim that they suffered
pulmonary disease

1007
01:16:23.060 --> 01:16:27.380
as a result of occupational inhalation of
asbestos fibers?

1008
01:16:27.380 --> 01:16:32.580
answer i really can't answer that question
there were a number of claims question

1009
01:16:32.580 --> 01:16:33.860
well let's try

1010
01:16:33.860 --> 01:16:38.500
numbers a couple hundred a couple thousand
answer no there were not a couple

1011
01:16:38.500 --> 01:16:40.520
thousand i question

1012
01:16:40.520 --> 01:16:46.140
would a couple hundred be a fair answer
answer i think then there is colloquy by

1013
01:16:46.140 --> 01:16:47.140
counsel i better

1014
01:16:46.880 --> 01:16:52.760
read the colloquy of the record mr wilson
mr lively wilson speaking

1015
01:16:52.760 --> 01:16:54.820
on line four of page 94

1016
01:16:54.820 --> 01:17:00.100
four of the dame wood transcript mr wilson
i think if you will please let the

1017
01:17:00.100 --> 01:17:01.100
witness finish before

1018
01:17:00.880 --> 01:17:04.980
you start again i appreciate your
willingness to proceed quickly and get
through

1019
01:17:04.980 --> 01:17:06.160
but and then mr

1020
01:17:06.160 --> 01:17:12.020
sweeney i have a tendency to pursue the
witness i apologize and then the witness
mr sheckler

1021
01:17:12.020 --> 01:17:16.840
answering the question couple several
hundred would be reasonable question

1022
01:17:18.600 --> 01:17:19.600
a couple hundred

1023
01:17:19.440 --> 01:17:24.080
over what period of time answer from the
time i answered the workman's compensation
for

1024
01:17:24.080 --> 01:17:29.520
occupational disease claims from 1957
through 1959 when i went to new york

1025
01:17:29.520 --> 01:17:31.400
question and these

1026
01:17:31.400 --> 01:17:37.260
several hundred what would they deal with
in terms of typical type asbestos related
claims

1027
01:17:37.260 --> 01:17:42.880
can you tell us the types of claims they
would be answer normally they were they

1028
01:17:42.880 --> 01:17:43.880
were diagnosed as

1029
01:17:43.720 --> 01:17:48.580
pneumoconiosis question would there be a
typical fibrosis pleural thickening

1030
01:17:48.580 --> 01:17:49.980
calcification noted

1031
01:17:49.980 --> 01:17:55.100
it on the radiographic examination answer
there would normally be fibrotic changes

1032
01:17:55.100 --> 01:17:56.100
not necessarily

1033
01:17:56.040 --> 01:18:01.900
pleural thickening and then line 13 page
141 mr sheckler

1034
01:18:01.900 --> 01:18:04.640
is it also true wait a minute so you

1035
01:18:04.640 --> 01:18:08.840
didn't indicate that one first i would
like the same agreement i'll just reserve

1036
01:18:08.840 --> 01:18:09.840
objection go

1037
01:18:09.620 --> 01:18:14.660
ahead and read it evident your objections
yes i'm going to reserve objection at

1038
01:18:14.660 --> 01:18:15.660
this point in time

1039
01:18:15.440 --> 01:18:18.820
go ahead and read it what's that well you
just jumped you didn't tell me you're

1040
01:18:18.820 --> 01:18:19.820
going to read

1041
01:18:19.040 --> 01:18:24.000
that before no i'm saying i'm stopping at
141 line 13.

1042
01:18:24.720 --> 01:18:28.840
oh okay i've just read in what i was

1043
01:18:28.840 --> 01:18:34.840
going to read in thank you now is

1044
01:18:34.840 --> 01:18:40.320
it also true mr sheckler that the
incidents of workman's

1045
01:18:40.320 --> 01:18:45.400
compensation disease claims filed by
manville employees alleging some form of a
special

1046
01:18:45.400 --> 01:18:50.740
salated lung disease increased between
1952 and 1959 while you were safety
engineer

1047
01:18:50.740 --> 01:18:51.740
and then

1048
01:18:51.300 --> 01:18:56.520
supervisor of safety object on
foundational grounds yes

1049
01:18:58.760 --> 01:19:00.700
i i think the incidence of

1050
01:19:00.700 --> 01:19:05.800
claims alleging occupational disease

1051
01:19:05.800 --> 01:19:07.260
claims

1052
01:19:10.850 --> 01:19:17.800
reopening permanent partial disability for

1053
01:19:17.800 --> 01:19:23.400
for occupational disease together, the two
types

1054
01:19:23.400 --> 01:19:28.980
of claims did increase between 1952 and
1959.

1055
01:19:30.660 --> 01:19:36.260
Again, as I explained on my deposition on
Monday and Tuesday,

1056
01:19:37.160 --> 01:19:40.820
New Jersey is unique in that it permits

1057
01:19:40.820 --> 01:19:46.820
payments payment of permanent partial
disabilities for occupational disease

1058
01:19:46.820 --> 01:19:48.520
starting at one percent

1059
01:19:48.520 --> 01:19:53.860
of total with a statute of limitations for
reopening every two years

1060
01:19:53.860 --> 01:19:55.060
testimony

1061
01:21:04.860 --> 01:21:05.860
of mr

1062
01:21:05.300 --> 01:21:10.960
sheckler in the trial of rosalina director
versus john manville products corporation

1063
01:21:10.960 --> 01:21:14.580
at all. Case number C-259023.

1064
01:21:15.340 --> 01:21:19.780
This is a reporter's daily transcript,
Wednesday, July 22nd, 1981,

1065
01:21:20.460 --> 01:21:25.690
volume 29, from page 4634,

1066
01:21:26.230 --> 01:21:28.050
line 3. I'll

1067
01:21:57.910 --> 01:22:01.050
ask this preliminary question. Mr.
Sheckler, is it true

1068
01:22:01.050 --> 01:22:04.870
that when you were in charge of safety,
that is, as a safety engineer or
supervisor

1069
01:22:04.870 --> 01:22:05.870
of safety at

1070
01:22:05.810 --> 01:22:10.290
the Manville plant from 52 through 59,
that the incidence of asbestos-related

1071
01:22:10.290 --> 01:22:11.450
disease increased

1072
01:22:11.450 --> 01:22:12.450
at that facility

1073
01:22:24.980 --> 01:22:29.240
yes sir yes sir I'm

1074
01:22:32.350 --> 01:22:35.110
sorry I thought he was reading from the

1075
01:22:35.110 --> 01:22:36.830
transfer well I would ask

1076
01:23:08.770 --> 01:23:13.930
4634, line 3 to line 9, I ask this
preliminary question, Mr.

1077
01:23:13.970 --> 01:23:15.390
Sheckler, is it true that when

1078
01:23:15.390 --> 01:23:20.250
you were in charge of safety, that is, as
a safety engineer or supervisor of safety

1079
01:23:20.250 --> 01:23:26.530
at the Manville plant in 52 through 59,
that the incidence of asbestos-related
disease

1080
01:23:26.530 --> 01:23:28.130
increased at that facility?

1081
01:23:29.070 --> 01:23:31.650
Two objections, both foundational.

1082
01:23:32.110 --> 01:23:34.050
One, firsthand knowledge.

1083
01:23:34.150 --> 01:23:35.890
Two, medical expertise.

1084
01:23:35.890 --> 01:23:39.590
he's now no longer talking about claims
he's talking about the incidence of

1085
01:23:39.590 --> 01:23:42.150
disease unreported

1086
01:23:48.330 --> 01:23:50.170
and I don't think there's any way this
witness could know

1087
01:23:50.170 --> 01:23:51.450
that are

1088
01:23:55.160 --> 01:24:00.400
you asking for unreported as well no sir
no

1089
01:24:00.400 --> 01:24:03.420
sir just the incidence of

1090
01:24:03.420 --> 01:24:08.460
a specials related disease increasing at
that facility from 1952 to 1959 that he

1091
01:24:08.460 --> 01:24:13.100
knows yes sir I can't answer that question
mr.

1092
01:24:13.160 --> 01:24:14.820
O'Reilly I'll read the

1093
01:24:14.820 --> 01:24:19.940
transcript that i just referred to
previously volume 29 of the directo trial

1094
01:24:19.940 --> 01:24:20.940
transcript page

1095
01:24:20.780 --> 01:24:26.740
4634 line three through nine this is the
testimony of mr sheckler

1096
01:24:26.740 --> 01:24:29.820
question now is it true that when

1097
01:24:29.820 --> 01:24:34.320
you were in charge of safety that is as a
safety engineer or supervisor of safety

1098
01:24:34.320 --> 01:24:35.320
at the manville

1099
01:24:34.920 --> 01:24:39.720
plant from 52 through 59 that the
incidence of asbestos-related disease
increased

1100
01:24:39.720 --> 01:24:40.720
at that facility

1101
01:24:40.420 --> 01:24:44.160
answer. I think that's a fair statement.

1102
01:24:44.380 --> 01:24:47.560
Yes, sir. Is it true, Mr.

1103
01:24:47.720 --> 01:24:50.360
Sheckler, that at the

1104
01:24:50.360 --> 01:24:56.220
Manville facility from 1952 to 1959, there
were some Manville employees who worked
directly

1105
01:24:56.220 --> 01:24:59.560
with asbestos fibers eight hours a day,
five days a week?

1106
01:25:01.820 --> 01:25:04.280
Yes, sir. And is it true that

1107
01:25:04.280 --> 01:25:08.120
during that same time frame, 1952 through
1959, that there were other employees at
the

1108
01:25:08.120 --> 01:25:12.580
manville complex that had intermittent or
occasional contact with asbestos fibers

1109
01:25:12.580 --> 01:25:13.580
in their

1110
01:25:13.040 --> 01:25:18.960
job yes sir and is it true that in the
workman's compensation claims you

1111
01:25:18.960 --> 01:25:21.160
evaluated between 1957

1112
01:25:21.660 --> 01:25:27.660
and 1959 some of the claims alleging
asbestos-related lung disease were

1113
01:25:27.660 --> 01:25:29.080
filed by non-production

1114
01:25:29.080 --> 01:25:35.420
personnel at the Manville facility you're
referring are you referring to

1115
01:25:36.720 --> 01:25:42.300
as of the time they filed the claim sir
yes yes sir and

1116
01:25:48.190 --> 01:25:49.850
is it true that when you

1117
01:25:49.850 --> 01:25:53.710
are processing these workman's
compensation claims between 1957 and

1118
01:25:53.710 --> 01:25:59.210
1959 for claimed asbestos related disease
by Manville employees

1119
01:25:59.210 --> 01:26:00.210
that you

1120
01:26:00.210 --> 01:26:04.470
you recognized that there were varying
degrees of exposure to the claimants.

1121
01:26:04.570 --> 01:26:07.750
Some had much more exposure to asbestos
fibers than others.

1122
01:26:11.010 --> 01:26:12.010
Yes, sir.

1123
01:26:18.360 --> 01:26:24.120
You testified that one of the things that
you relied on in

1124
01:26:24.120 --> 01:26:25.120
performing your,

1125
01:26:25.740 --> 01:26:27.680
well, let me strike the beginning of that.

1126
01:26:28.120 --> 01:26:31.980
Is it true that one of the studies or
reports that you relied on

1127
01:26:31.980 --> 01:26:34.740
in performing your duties for Johns-
Manville

1128
01:26:34.740 --> 01:26:38.460
as manager of the industrial health
program was the Lanza study, Exhibit A?

1129
01:26:39.200 --> 01:26:44.880
that you testified about yesterday yes sir
okay and can you approximate

1130
01:26:44.880 --> 01:26:46.480
for us when it was that

1131
01:26:46.480 --> 01:26:52.150
you first read or glanced at the study by
Dr. Lanza the wanza

1132
01:26:52.150 --> 01:26:55.170
study as i recall was brought

1133
01:26:55.170 --> 01:27:01.030
to my attention sometime after

1134
01:27:01.030 --> 01:27:06.630
i went into new york which would have been
59 late 59 early 60.

1135
01:27:12.850 --> 01:27:18.210
Is it your testimony that you personally
were not aware of any risk of injury

1136
01:27:18.210 --> 01:27:22.650
to the consumer or users of Johns-
Manville,

1137
01:27:22.730 --> 01:27:28.050
especially containing insulating products,
until you read the Dr.

1138
01:27:28.150 --> 01:27:30.390
Selikoff preliminary study in April of
1964?

1139
01:27:33.140 --> 01:27:34.140
Yes, sir.

1140
01:27:34.320 --> 01:27:39.600
Prior to your reading of the Dr. Selikoff
preliminary study in April of 1964,

1141
01:27:39.600 --> 01:27:46.140
in 1964, nobody had advised you, informed
you, or provided any information to you
that

1142
01:27:46.140 --> 01:27:50.580
indicated that there was any risk of
injury to the consuming public who
utilized

1143
01:27:50.580 --> 01:27:52.000
the asbestos-containing

1144
01:27:52.000 --> 01:27:53.620
insulating products. Is that true?

1145
01:28:09.480 --> 01:28:14.880
There may have been an isolated case

1146
01:28:14.880 --> 01:28:18.700
study or a case that I was aware of, I
don't recall,

1147
01:28:18.700 --> 01:28:23.840
but there were no studies that

1148
01:28:23.840 --> 01:28:28.480
indicated any potential

1149
01:28:29.920 --> 01:28:35.780
injury to users of insulation materials

1150
01:28:35.780 --> 01:28:42.380
that I'm aware of before, that I was aware
of before 1964.

1151
01:28:43.420 --> 01:28:48.740
Prior to the time that you read Dr.
Selikoff's preliminary report in April of
1964,

1152
01:28:48.740 --> 01:28:54.400
Had anyone advised you, informed you, or
had you received any information

1153
01:28:54.400 --> 01:28:55.480
that indicated

1154
01:28:55.480 --> 01:29:01.160
to you that there was any risk of injury
to the consuming public that utilized the

1155
01:29:01.160 --> 01:29:02.160
asbestos-containing

1156
01:29:01.860 --> 01:29:02.860
insulating products?

1157
01:29:03.500 --> 01:29:04.500
No, sir.

1158
01:29:13.400 --> 01:29:16.980
I would like, if you would, sir, to refer
to Exhibit

1159
01:29:19.480 --> 01:29:24.520
1A, which should be before you

1160
01:29:24.520 --> 01:29:25.520
up there.

1161
01:29:25.200 --> 01:29:31.180
And I would like, if you would,

1162
01:29:31.280 --> 01:29:34.500
take a moment to read that exhibit.

1163
01:29:56.020 --> 01:29:57.680
Do you have it before you, Mr. Sheckler?

1164
01:29:57.820 --> 01:29:58.820
Yes, sir.

1165
01:30:06.060 --> 01:30:08.220
Not yet, Counselor.

1166
01:30:08.260 --> 01:30:14.060
After we discuss the exhibit he has before
him, then you can exhibit

1167
01:30:14.060 --> 01:30:16.280
this as well.

1168
01:30:21.700 --> 01:30:27.460
Exhibit 1A is an 8 1⁄2 by 11 copy of a
letter

1169
01:30:27.460 --> 01:30:31.320
from Mr. Hugh Jackson of Johns-Manville

1170
01:30:31.320 --> 01:30:36.760
to Arthur J. Vorwald at Saranac Labs,
dated approximately August 13, 1948.

1171
01:30:37.200 --> 01:30:38.200
Is that correct?

1172
01:30:40.160 --> 01:30:41.160
Yes, sir.

1173
01:30:41.220 --> 01:30:46.540
And it states in the right-hand corner
next to Dr.

1174
01:30:46.660 --> 01:30:47.660
Vorwald's name

1175
01:30:47.320 --> 01:30:52.880
that it regards Dominic Bertogliat, B-E-R-
T-O-G-L-I-A-T.

1176
01:30:53.120 --> 01:30:54.120
True?

1177
01:30:53.800 --> 01:30:54.800
Correct.

1178
01:30:55.080 --> 01:30:56.900
P-48-415.

1179
01:31:00.360 --> 01:31:01.380
That's correct.

1180
01:31:02.400 --> 01:31:04.840
Do you recognize Mr. Jackson's signature
there?

1181
01:31:06.580 --> 01:31:07.580
No, sir.

1182
01:31:17.010 --> 01:31:22.620
If you would, Mr. Sheckler, can you read
the

1183
01:31:22.620 --> 01:31:24.900
letter into the record?

1184
01:31:28.000 --> 01:31:30.240
Well, I will object to that, Your Honor.

1185
01:31:32.400 --> 01:31:35.920
The letter itself is the best evidence of
what it says,

1186
01:31:36.080 --> 01:31:40.000
and if there is a foundation through some
other witness for its admissibility,

1187
01:31:40.080 --> 01:31:41.080
that's fine.

1188
01:31:40.960 --> 01:31:43.620
Otherwise, his reading it into the record,
that's not a question.

1189
01:31:43.760 --> 01:31:46.100
It's just a request.

1190
01:31:47.100 --> 01:31:53.000
I would object to it in its present form
and object to any further interrogation of
this

1191
01:31:53.000 --> 01:31:56.640
witness with reference to this letter
because he can't identify it and can't lay
a foundation

1192
01:31:56.640 --> 01:31:57.640
for it.

1193
01:31:57.440 --> 01:31:58.740
Well, I will try that question.

1194
01:31:58.880 --> 01:31:59.880
I will try that question.

1195
01:31:59.840 --> 01:32:04.600
In that particular exhibit, that is
Plaintiff's 1, Mr.

1196
01:32:04.780 --> 01:32:10.120
Jackson is expressing his, let me rephrase

1197
01:32:10.120 --> 01:32:15.600
Were you ever advised or informed at any
time prior to April

1198
01:32:15.600 --> 01:32:20.720
1964 that Mr. Jackson, as safety

1199
01:32:20.720 --> 01:32:26.620
engineer at corporate headquarters in
1948, had written a

1200
01:32:26.620 --> 01:32:30.360
letter to Dr. Vorwald at Saranac

1201
01:32:30.360 --> 01:32:35.320
labs expressing his concern that the

1202
01:32:35.320 --> 01:32:41.020
relatively slight exposure that a former

1203
01:32:41.020 --> 01:32:46.360
employee Mr. Bertogliat had suffered could
cause asbestos related lung

1204
01:32:46.360 --> 01:32:52.100
disease in Mr. Bertogliat. Were you ever
aware or informed of that at any time

1205
01:32:52.100 --> 01:32:55.320
prior to April 1964? No, sir.

1206
01:32:55.720 --> 01:32:59.640
Were you aware or informed at any time
prior to

1207
01:32:59.640 --> 01:33:05.100
April 1964, that Mr. Hugh Jackson, as a
safety engineer working out of corporate
headquarters

1208
01:33:05.470 --> 01:33:11.420
in August of 1948, had requested Saranac
Laboratories to advise him

1209
01:33:11.420 --> 01:33:13.580
as to whether or not slight

1210
01:33:13.580 --> 01:33:16.740
exposures could produce asbestos-related
lung disease.

1211
01:33:18.740 --> 01:33:19.740
No, sir.

1212
01:33:19.780 --> 01:33:20.780
Okay.

1213
01:33:20.360 --> 01:33:23.720
When you took over Mr.

1214
01:33:23.880 --> 01:33:29.320
Jackson's job at corporate headquarters in
1960, at any

1215
01:33:29.320 --> 01:33:34.840
time subsequent to that date that you took
over his job did you ever see the

1216
01:33:34.840 --> 01:33:39.780
original or a copy of plaintiffs one that
is the August 13th 1948 letter from

1217
01:33:39.780 --> 01:33:44.160
mr. Jackson to dr. Vorwald you may have
the question scope of his employment at

1218
01:33:44.160 --> 01:33:48.720
any time before you at any time prior to
1980

1219
01:33:48.720 --> 01:33:53.630
no sir did mr.

1220
01:33:53.750 --> 01:33:54.750
Jackson and any of

1221
01:33:54.590 --> 01:33:59.830
the conversations that you had with mr
jackson from 1952 until

1222
01:33:59.830 --> 01:34:03.230
the beginning of 1980 ever advise

1223
01:34:03.230 --> 01:34:08.930
you or inform you that he had written such
a letter to dr vorwald at cernak

1224
01:34:08.930 --> 01:34:10.070
labs at any time

1225
01:34:10.550 --> 01:34:16.430
no sir okay yeah i'd like to now go into
this time do you

1226
01:34:16.430 --> 01:34:17.910
want to exhibit it for the tape

1227
01:34:17.910 --> 01:34:18.910
Yes, sir.

1228
01:34:19.110 --> 01:34:22.110
Why don't you put it on the table here in
front of them?

1229
01:34:23.010 --> 01:34:24.010
Pardon?

1230
01:34:52.640 --> 01:34:58.320
For the record, we have Exhibit 1, a blow-
up of Exhibit 1A, the

1231
01:34:58.320 --> 01:34:59.320
document that Mr.

1232
01:34:59.180 --> 01:35:04.280
Sheckler was being just questioned about,
and we have that viewed now on a pedestal

1233
01:35:04.660 --> 01:35:05.660
for the videotape.

1234
01:35:18.500 --> 01:35:22.780
I have, for the record, previously
objected to this procedure.

1235
01:35:23.020 --> 01:35:24.640
My objection is noted.

1236
01:35:24.640 --> 01:35:30.600
that I will reiterate it at this point,
and then, because I think

1237
01:35:30.600 --> 01:35:31.600
there are eight more

1238
01:35:31.340 --> 01:35:35.860
or something like that, I'll just be
quiet, but we'll give you a running
objection.

1239
01:35:36.120 --> 01:35:37.120
Thank you.

1240
01:35:41.380 --> 01:35:47.260
Mr. Sheckler, would you refer to Exhibit
2C and 2D

1241
01:35:47.260 --> 01:35:50.120
before you, which is a two-page letter

1242
01:35:50.120 --> 01:35:55.740
Two-page letter dated August 19, 1948,
from Dr.

1243
01:35:59.960 --> 01:36:03.140
Vorwald at Saranac Labs to Mr. Hugh
Jackson,

1244
01:36:03.360 --> 01:36:08.860
safety engineer, Johns-Manville
Corporation, 22 East 40th Street, New York
16,

1245
01:36:09.220 --> 01:36:10.220
New York.

1246
01:36:09.880 --> 01:36:11.460
Ray Dominick Bertogliat.

1247
01:36:16.840 --> 01:36:18.020
Two C and two D?

1248
01:36:18.220 --> 01:36:19.220
Yes.

1249
01:36:40.810 --> 01:36:42.550
Do we have that before you, Mr. Sheckler?

1250
01:36:43.630 --> 01:36:44.670
One moment, please.

1251
01:36:44.710 --> 01:36:45.710
Please.

1252
01:36:55.140 --> 01:36:56.140
Yes, sir.

1253
01:36:55.840 --> 01:37:00.630
Okay. Now, at

1254
01:37:00.630 --> 01:37:06.530
any time prior to the time you became
manager of the

1255
01:37:06.530 --> 01:37:08.190
Industrial Health Program in 1960,

1256
01:37:08.710 --> 01:37:13.990
did anyone ever advise you or inform you
that Dr.

1257
01:37:14.170 --> 01:37:16.130
Vorwald of Saranac labs

1258
01:37:16.130 --> 01:37:22.110
had responded to Mr. Jackson's letter of
August 13, 1948, which has

1259
01:37:22.110 --> 01:37:24.250
been marked as Plaintiff's 1A?

1260
01:37:28.980 --> 01:37:29.980
No, sir.

1261
01:37:29.860 --> 01:37:36.300
Okay. At any time after you became the
manager of the industrial health program
in 1960,

1262
01:37:36.720 --> 01:37:39.800
did anyone advise you or inform you that
Dr.

1263
01:37:39.820 --> 01:37:41.140
Vorwald at Saranac Labs

1264
01:37:41.140 --> 01:37:47.040
had responded to Mr. Jackson's letter
dated August 13, 1948, here and

1265
01:37:47.040 --> 01:37:48.160
marked as Exhibit 1A?

1266
01:37:49.460 --> 01:37:50.460
No, sir.

1267
01:37:50.520 --> 01:37:55.160
When you took over your job as Mr.

1268
01:37:55.320 --> 01:37:57.240
Jackson's successor in 1960,

1269
01:37:57.240 --> 01:38:02.940
Did Mr. Jackson advise you or inform you
that on approximately August

1270
01:38:02.940 --> 01:38:06.280
19, 1948, Dr. Vorwald

1271
01:38:07.100 --> 01:38:13.100
responded to his letter of August 13,
1948, and concluded his

1272
01:38:13.100 --> 01:38:15.100
letter by stating, in consequence

1273
01:38:15.100 --> 01:38:21.100
of the above, I can see no other
alternative than to anticipate others

1274
01:38:21.100 --> 01:38:22.640
with similar exposures

1275
01:38:22.640 --> 01:38:27.840
to be similarly affected, but I expect
also that individual susceptibility will

1276
01:38:27.840 --> 01:38:29.160
affect some selection.

1277
01:38:29.420 --> 01:38:33.440
Your Honor, I'm going to object to the
form of the question as including what I

1278
01:38:33.440 --> 01:38:34.440
would characterize

1279
01:38:34.080 --> 01:38:36.020
as hearsay material within it.

1280
01:38:36.400 --> 01:38:38.940
The counsel is bootstrapping at this
point.

1281
01:38:39.220 --> 01:38:40.220
So stay.

1282
01:38:39.940 --> 01:38:41.220
Pre-phrase it, counsel.

1283
01:38:46.820 --> 01:38:52.020
When you took over Mr. Jackson's job in
1960 as manager of the industrial health

1284
01:38:52.020 --> 01:38:53.320
program for Johns-Manville,

1285
01:38:53.320 --> 01:38:58.900
Did Mr. Jackson advise you or inform you
that sometime

1286
01:38:58.900 --> 01:39:02.780
in late 1940s or early 1950s, Dr.

1287
01:39:02.980 --> 01:39:08.980
Vorwald had advised him by letter that
people

1288
01:39:08.980 --> 01:39:10.140
with

1289
01:39:12.540 --> 01:39:18.520
relatively slight exposure to asbestos

1290
01:39:18.520 --> 01:39:22.400
fibers could develop asbestos-related lung
disease?

1291
01:39:23.400 --> 01:39:24.400
No, sir.

1292
01:39:24.060 --> 01:39:29.360
Did Mr. Jackson, let me rephrase that, did
anyone at Johns-Manville or outside

1293
01:39:29.360 --> 01:39:33.380
Johns-Manville at any time from the time
he became manager of the industrial health

1294
01:39:33.380 --> 01:39:39.300
program in 1960 until 1980 advise you or
inform you that in

1295
01:39:39.300 --> 01:39:43.320
the later part of the 1940s, Dr. Vorwald
had advised Mr.

1296
01:39:43.500 --> 01:39:48.780
Jackson that people with slight exposure
could develop a special slated lung
disease?

1297
01:39:49.820 --> 01:39:50.820
No, sir.

1298
01:39:59.360 --> 01:40:05.300
When you took over Mr. Jackson's job as
manager of the Industrial Health Program
in 1960,

1299
01:40:06.760 --> 01:40:12.500
did you at any time see an original or a
copy of Plaintiffs 2C and

1300
01:40:12.500 --> 01:40:13.940
2D which you have before you?

1301
01:40:14.660 --> 01:40:15.660
No, sir.

1302
01:40:15.500 --> 01:40:21.140
Did anyone at Johns-Manville or outside
Johns-Manville ever advise you in any way

1303
01:40:21.140 --> 01:40:27.240
that Dr. Vorwald had written a letter such
as Plaintiffs 2A and 2B to Mr.

1304
01:40:27.380 --> 01:40:28.380
Jackson?

1305
01:40:28.140 --> 01:40:29.140
No, sir.

1306
01:40:29.260 --> 01:40:31.700
Can we put up the blow-up now, Your Honor?

1307
01:40:32.300 --> 01:40:34.660
You just said 2A and 2B.

1308
01:40:34.680 --> 01:40:36.640
I'm sorry. I meant 2B and 2C.

1309
01:40:38.160 --> 01:40:39.160
2C and D.

1310
01:40:39.120 --> 01:40:40.120
Thank you, sir.

1311
01:40:40.340 --> 01:40:44.480
At this time, we're going to identify.

1312
01:40:45.560 --> 01:40:49.220
We're going to put up Exhibit 2A and 2B,

1313
01:40:49.340 --> 01:40:55.620
which are blow-ups of the 2C and 2D
letters

1314
01:40:55.620 --> 01:40:58.800
that Mr. Sheckler was just testifying
about.

1315
01:40:59.480 --> 01:41:01.060
Well, this is 2A now.

1316
01:41:01.160 --> 01:41:04.240
This is 2A and 2B, the blow-ups of 2C and
2D.

1317
01:41:10.850 --> 01:41:12.210
I'm not clear as to that.

1318
01:41:12.850 --> 01:41:13.850
It's correct.

1319
01:41:14.130 --> 01:41:15.130
It is correct.

1320
01:41:15.570 --> 01:41:17.250
It's interesting, but it's correct.

1321
01:41:34.480 --> 01:41:38.160
About how many frames do you get by this
procedure?

1322
01:41:40.060 --> 01:41:41.060
Six.

1323
01:41:41.660 --> 01:41:42.660
About six?

1324
01:41:42.460 --> 01:41:44.120
I have no idea. I don't even know what I'm
talking about.

1325
01:41:44.280 --> 01:41:45.880
I want to go ahead and do this.

1326
01:41:50.890 --> 01:41:51.950
Next page.

1327
01:41:57.750 --> 01:42:00.410
Are you the director, Mr. Seidel?

1328
01:42:00.590 --> 01:42:01.590
Yeah.

1329
01:42:01.510 --> 01:42:02.590
Are we on record?

1330
01:42:04.450 --> 01:42:06.090
No, I'm on your record.

1331
01:42:06.270 --> 01:42:07.270
Okay.

1332
01:42:38.700 --> 01:42:40.160
There's a question pending.

1333
01:42:40.980 --> 01:42:42.080
How many frames?

1334
01:42:43.480 --> 01:42:44.720
It's not the only frame.

1335
01:42:45.800 --> 01:42:47.320
The videotape isn't framed.

1336
01:42:47.400 --> 01:42:48.400
The videotape is not framed.

1337
01:42:48.860 --> 01:42:51.100
Oh, that's a continuous .

1338
01:42:51.960 --> 01:42:54.440
May we take the recess of this?

1339
01:42:54.480 --> 01:42:55.480
Yes, sir.

1340
01:42:55.580 --> 01:42:57.340
Zoom again at 2.15.

1341
01:43:16.030 --> 01:43:17.110
May we proceed?

1342
01:43:17.170 --> 01:43:18.170
Yes, sir.

1343
01:43:17.730 --> 01:43:18.730
Thank you.

1344
01:43:19.880 --> 01:43:20.880
Yes, sir.

1345
01:43:22.570 --> 01:43:23.570
Tape off.

1346
01:43:32.460 --> 01:43:38.400
Mr. Sheckler, would you get, please,
Exhibit 1A and 2C

1347
01:43:38.400 --> 01:43:39.400
and D.

1348
01:43:39.100 --> 01:43:44.080
Those were the two letters, the first from
Mr.

1349
01:43:44.220 --> 01:43:47.540
Jackson to Dr. Vorwald on August 13, 1948,

1350
01:43:47.740 --> 01:43:51.900
and the second from Dr. Vorwald to Mr.
Jackson, August 19, 1948.

1351
01:43:52.500 --> 01:43:53.800
Do you have those before you, sir?

1352
01:43:53.940 --> 01:43:54.940
Yes, sir.

1353
01:43:54.320 --> 01:44:00.260
Now, in addition to discussing whether or
not slight exposure

1354
01:44:00.260 --> 01:44:02.380
can cause asbestos-related lung disease,

1355
01:44:02.660 --> 01:44:07.080
Mr. Jackson also questions about
individual susceptibility,

1356
01:44:07.320 --> 01:44:13.640
which is also responded to by Dr. Vorwald
in his August 19, 1948 letter.

1357
01:44:14.580 --> 01:44:21.060
At the time that you became manager of the
industrial health program for Johns-
Manville,

1358
01:44:21.060 --> 01:44:27.000
did you believe that some individuals were
more susceptible to contacting a

1359
01:44:27.000 --> 01:44:28.460
specialist-related lung disease

1360
01:44:28.460 --> 01:44:31.460
than other individuals, regardless of
exposure?

1361
01:44:31.840 --> 01:44:36.360
Your Honor, I'm an object to the form of
the question.

1362
01:44:36.780 --> 01:44:41.100
It starts with a preamble statement by a
counsel, and I think that's an improper
form.

1363
01:44:41.400 --> 01:44:46.660
When you became manager of the Industrial
Health Program in 1960,

1364
01:44:46.660 --> 01:44:52.660
In 1960, did you believe that there was
something known as individual

1365
01:44:52.660 --> 01:44:55.800
susceptibility of a person

1366
01:44:55.800 --> 01:44:59.260
with respect to contacting or contracting
asbestos-related lung disease?

1367
01:44:59.920 --> 01:45:03.860
It was my

1368
01:45:05.110 --> 01:45:08.730
impression from the

1369
01:45:13.910 --> 01:45:19.130
knowledge that I had at that time that
there is such a thing

1370
01:45:19.130 --> 01:45:23.010
as susceptibility by individuals.

1371
01:45:23.010 --> 01:45:28.970
And did you understand in 1960 that
individual susceptibility

1372
01:45:28.970 --> 01:45:31.330
to mean that some individuals

1373
01:45:32.180 --> 01:45:36.370
were more susceptible to contracting
asbestos-related lung disease than other

1374
01:45:36.370 --> 01:45:37.510
individuals, given

1375
01:45:37.510 --> 01:45:39.250
the same amount of asbestos exposure?

1376
01:45:39.910 --> 01:45:40.910
Yes, sir.

1377
01:45:42.150 --> 01:45:48.110
Approximately when did you find out, Mr.
Sheckler, that there was such a thing
known

1378
01:45:48.110 --> 01:45:53.890
known as individual susceptibility with
regard to the individual's chance

1379
01:45:53.890 --> 01:45:55.070
or risk of contracting

1380
01:45:55.070 --> 01:45:56.310
asbestos-related lung disease?

1381
01:45:59.690 --> 01:46:02.910
Sometime after 1957, I would say.

1382
01:46:03.210 --> 01:46:06.230
Did someone tell you that?

1383
01:46:07.330 --> 01:46:13.320
I learned that in the course of my work,
yes, sir.

1384
01:46:13.880 --> 01:46:18.380
And were you aware at any time prior to
1964 how

1385
01:46:20.010 --> 01:46:23.010
individual susceptibility affected the

1386
01:46:23.010 --> 01:46:27.030
incidents of asbestos related disease in
people who were exposed to airborne

1387
01:46:27.030 --> 01:46:28.030
asbestos fibers

1388
01:46:28.870 --> 01:46:32.390
i think i'll object to that as vague
ambiguous uncertain and unintelligible

1389
01:46:36.080 --> 01:46:41.260
were you aware at any time prior to 1964
just

1390
01:46:43.720 --> 01:46:46.980
how individual susceptibility affected a
person's

1391
01:46:46.980 --> 01:46:50.940
chances of contracting asbestos related
lung disease same

1392
01:46:53.730 --> 01:46:57.690
objection yeah i had the question

1393
01:46:57.690 --> 01:47:01.510
again trial context i'd request an offer
proof runner because i don't understand

1394
01:47:01.510 --> 01:47:02.510
the premise

1395
01:47:03.470 --> 01:47:08.650
let me get the question again what's that
well

1396
01:47:10.410 --> 01:47:13.610
were you aware at any time prior to 1964
just

1397
01:47:13.610 --> 01:47:19.310
how individuals susceptibility affected a
person's chances of contracting asbestos

1398
01:47:19.310 --> 01:47:20.310
-related lung disease

1399
01:47:28.620 --> 01:47:34.430
i'm afraid mr o'reilly that i

1400
01:47:34.430 --> 01:47:38.750
don't understand what you're asking me uh
rephrase it yes sir

1401
01:47:40.950 --> 01:47:46.890
Well, you testified that you were aware of
a factor known as individual
susceptibility.

1402
01:47:47.190 --> 01:47:52.830
My question is, to what extent did
individual susceptibility affect

1403
01:47:52.830 --> 01:47:56.890
a person's risk or chance

1404
01:47:56.890 --> 01:47:58.990
of contracting a specialist-related lung
disease?

1405
01:47:59.270 --> 01:48:01.030
Did you have any specifics about that?

1406
01:48:01.670 --> 01:48:07.180
No, sir, I'm not clear on what

1407
01:48:07.180 --> 01:48:10.100
information you're looking for.

1408
01:48:10.100 --> 01:48:15.420
Would it be fair to state that from 1960
to 1967,

1409
01:48:15.920 --> 01:48:19.420
you were aware that there was a factor

1410
01:48:19.420 --> 01:48:25.520
known as individual susceptibility, but
did not know any specifics as to how that
affected

1411
01:48:25.520 --> 01:48:28.600
a person's chance of contracting asbestos-
related lung disease?

1412
01:48:33.010 --> 01:48:38.150
By that I mean, did you have any specifics
as to what made one individual more
susceptible

1413
01:48:38.510 --> 01:48:42.770
to contracting asbestos-related lung
disease from the inhalation of asbestos
fibers than

1414
01:48:42.770 --> 01:48:43.770
another individual?

1415
01:48:43.470 --> 01:48:48.610
Are you asking me do I know what causes
individual susceptibility?

1416
01:48:48.830 --> 01:48:50.870
I don't know what your question is.

1417
01:48:50.910 --> 01:48:51.910
Fair enough.

1418
01:48:51.390 --> 01:48:52.390
I'm sorry.

1419
01:48:51.950 --> 01:48:52.950
Fair enough.

1420
01:48:52.850 --> 01:48:53.850
Fair enough.

1421
01:48:54.130 --> 01:48:59.290
Did you at any time between 1960 and 1967
know

1422
01:48:59.290 --> 01:49:01.230
or have any knowledge

1423
01:49:01.230 --> 01:49:05.690
as to why one individual was more
susceptible to contracting a specials-
related

1424
01:49:05.690 --> 01:49:06.690
lung disease

1425
01:49:06.250 --> 01:49:08.810
than another individual with the same
exposure?

1426
01:49:09.150 --> 01:49:13.080
There would be many reasons, Mr.

1427
01:49:13.180 --> 01:49:14.180
Riley.

1428
01:49:13.460 --> 01:49:16.700
Well, you could answer yes or no. Did you
know why?

1429
01:49:20.060 --> 01:49:23.100
I can't answer that question.

1430
01:49:24.340 --> 01:49:30.640
I'm sorry. It's really a medical question
I can answer,

1431
01:49:30.740 --> 01:49:35.100
but it would take a lengthy explanation,
and I just can't answer it, yes or no.

1432
01:49:35.380 --> 01:49:40.120
The questioner is asking your state of
knowledge, if you have any information on

1433
01:49:40.120 --> 01:49:41.220
this as to the cause.

1434
01:49:41.900 --> 01:49:43.220
You don't say so.

1435
01:49:43.220 --> 01:49:47.160
Well, yes, I have information as to the
cause,

1436
01:49:47.260 --> 01:49:49.240
but I didn't understand that to be the
question.

1437
01:49:49.420 --> 01:49:50.780
I think that's a great point of it.

1438
01:49:50.960 --> 01:49:51.960
Yes, sir.

1439
01:49:52.380 --> 01:49:53.700
Is that the question?

1440
01:49:53.700 --> 01:49:54.700
Yes, sir.

1441
01:49:54.120 --> 01:49:57.900
If you had any knowledge or information
between 1960 and 1967

1442
01:49:57.900 --> 01:50:01.160
as to why, given the same amount of
exposure,

1443
01:50:01.500 --> 01:50:04.480
one individual was more susceptible to
contracting

1444
01:50:04.480 --> 01:50:06.760
asbestos-related lung disease than another
individual?

1445
01:50:08.020 --> 01:50:09.020
Yes.

1446
01:50:08.720 --> 01:50:09.720
What is that, sir?

1447
01:50:09.540 --> 01:50:11.500
What information did you have or were you
aware of

1448
01:50:11.500 --> 01:50:17.300
between 1960 and 1967 there are a number
of reasons

1449
01:50:17.300 --> 01:50:19.940
why one person may be more

1450
01:50:19.940 --> 01:50:24.740
susceptible than the other the way they
breathe

1451
01:50:24.740 --> 01:50:32.240
that's where we're now assuming

1452
01:50:32.310 --> 01:50:38.550
that they're in exposure to some
deleterious dust or what have fumes

1453
01:50:38.550 --> 01:50:44.210
vapors the way they breathe we all have a
to

1454
01:50:44.210 --> 01:50:46.830
give you a way explanation we all

1455
01:50:46.830 --> 01:50:50.810
have a building garbage collection system
some people's garbage collection

1456
01:50:50.810 --> 01:50:57.410
system works much more efficiently than
other people so whatever they breathe is

1457
01:50:57.410 --> 01:51:03.250
extracted from the lungs other people
retain more in

1458
01:51:03.250 --> 01:51:05.430
the lung that's the best

1459
01:51:05.430 --> 01:51:09.350
answer i can give you mr i'm sorry i
didn't understand what you were asking
that's fine

1460
01:51:09.350 --> 01:51:10.890
so that's fine would

1461
01:51:19.460 --> 01:51:24.100
it be fair to state that sometime between
1960 and 1967 you believed

1462
01:51:24.720 --> 01:51:29.820
that individual susceptibility was due to
difference in breathing from one
individual

1463
01:51:29.820 --> 01:51:35.600
to another correct so far yes a difference
in

1464
01:51:35.600 --> 01:51:38.880
one person's ability wasn't quite what he
said

1465
01:51:38.880 --> 01:51:44.740
counsel talking about the efficiency of
the breathing apparatus well I think

1466
01:51:44.740 --> 01:51:50.560
that's another factor is it anything other

1467
01:51:50.560 --> 01:51:51.920
than efficiency of the breathing

1468
01:51:51.920 --> 01:51:55.780
apparatus no sir that's what I meant mr.

1469
01:51:55.800 --> 01:51:58.240
O'Reilly all right so in essence then

1470
01:51:58.240 --> 01:52:02.340
the reason that you believed there was
such a factor known as individual

1471
01:52:02.340 --> 01:52:05.640
susceptibility with regard to contracting
a special a to lung disease

1472
01:52:05.640 --> 01:52:11.580
was that one person's breathing system,
its efficiency, differed from another's.

1473
01:52:11.640 --> 01:52:12.640
That's right.

1474
01:52:12.680 --> 01:52:16.840
And is that basically, would it be fair to
state that that was your understanding

1475
01:52:16.840 --> 01:52:20.220
of why there was individual susceptibility
between 1960 and 1967?

1476
01:52:21.000 --> 01:52:22.000
Yes, sir.

1477
01:52:22.380 --> 01:52:27.240
Would you please refer to Exhibit 3

1478
01:52:27.240 --> 01:52:28.480
and

1479
01:52:32.570 --> 01:52:34.030
4A before you.

1480
01:53:30.090 --> 01:53:36.020
Mr. Sheckler, is Exhibit 3 a copy

1481
01:53:36.020 --> 01:53:39.940
of a letter from Dr.

1482
01:53:40.180 --> 01:53:45.000
Walmer to Mr. Jackson, or is that Exhibit
4 in front of you?

1483
01:53:47.380 --> 01:53:50.500
3A is a letter from Mr.

1484
01:53:51.380 --> 01:53:53.080
Kane, John W. Kane.

1485
01:53:53.660 --> 01:53:54.660
K-A-N-E.

1486
01:53:54.600 --> 01:53:55.600
K-A-N-E.

1487
01:53:56.100 --> 01:53:58.860
Okay, I got it now. I got it now, Mr.
Sheckler. Thank you.

1488
01:53:58.860 --> 01:54:03.920
Now, Exhibit 4 is a letter from Dr.

1489
01:54:04.060 --> 01:54:09.520
Walmer to Mr. Jackson, dated sometime in
August 1955.

1490
01:54:10.560 --> 01:54:13.780
And Exhibit 3 before you is a letter from
Mr.

1491
01:54:14.000 --> 01:54:18.440
Cain, corresponding secretary, dated
August 13, 1955.

1492
01:54:18.920 --> 01:54:19.920
Is that correct?

1493
01:54:20.060 --> 01:54:21.500
That's correct, yes, sir.

1494
01:54:21.620 --> 01:54:27.580
Now, when you became manager of the
Industrial Health Program for Johns

1495
01:54:27.580 --> 01:54:28.640
Manville in 1960,

1496
01:54:28.640 --> 01:54:34.240
1960, did Mr. Jackson advise you that he
had

1497
01:54:34.240 --> 01:54:40.040
received correspondence in 1955 from a
corresponding

1498
01:54:40.040 --> 01:54:46.040
secretary of a union indicating that 7 out
of 9 of that union's pipe coverers had
died

1499
01:54:46.040 --> 01:54:47.040
from lung disease?

1500
01:54:47.180 --> 01:54:48.180
No, sir.

1501
01:54:48.220 --> 01:54:53.560
Did Mr. Jackson advise you or inform you
at any time from 1952

1502
01:54:53.560 --> 01:54:56.780
up until you retired

1503
01:54:56.780 --> 01:55:02.360
from johns manville in 1977 that he had
seen correspondence from

1504
01:55:02.360 --> 01:55:04.060
a corresponding secretary

1505
01:55:04.820 --> 01:55:08.900
of the international association of heat
and frost insulators and asbestos workers

1506
01:55:09.540 --> 01:55:14.600
wherein the correspondence was inquiring
for someone's help in determining why

1507
01:55:14.600 --> 01:55:15.600
seven out

1508
01:55:15.140 --> 01:55:20.380
of nine pipe covers died from lung disease
i'm going to check this thing

1509
01:55:20.380 --> 01:55:24.370
did mr jackson advise

1510
01:55:24.370 --> 01:55:27.790
advise you at any time from 1952, let me
rephrase that, did Mr.

1511
01:55:27.890 --> 01:55:29.150
Jackson advise you at any time

1512
01:55:29.790 --> 01:55:34.870
from August 1955 until the day you retired
from Johns-Manville in 1977

1513
01:55:34.870 --> 01:55:37.050
that he had seen

1514
01:55:37.050 --> 01:55:42.250
correspondence from a secretary of a pipe
coverers union wherein the

1515
01:55:42.250 --> 01:55:44.170
secretary was

1516
01:55:44.170 --> 01:55:50.050
inquiring as to some help in determining
why seven out of nine pipe coverers died
from

1517
01:55:50.050 --> 01:55:51.050
lung disease?

1518
01:55:50.510 --> 01:55:51.950
Object to the form of the question.

1519
01:55:52.270 --> 01:55:55.190
No, I think that's an objectionable rule.

1520
01:55:56.490 --> 01:55:57.490
No, sir.

1521
01:55:58.270 --> 01:56:02.510
When you took over Mr. Jackson's position
in 1960,

1522
01:56:03.230 --> 01:56:08.050
did you see an original or a copy of
either Exhibit No.

1523
01:56:08.210 --> 01:56:09.210
4,

1524
01:56:08.590 --> 01:56:11.210
the letter from Dr. Walmer to Mr. Jackson,

1525
01:56:11.430 --> 01:56:15.190
or the enclosure that came with that
letter, which is Exhibit No.

1526
01:56:15.870 --> 01:56:17.070
3A, before you?

1527
01:56:18.090 --> 01:56:19.090
No, sir.

1528
01:56:20.510 --> 01:56:26.270
Did anyone at Johns-Manville advise you at
any time from 1955 up until the date of

1529
01:56:26.270 --> 01:56:27.270
your retirement

1530
01:56:26.690 --> 01:56:31.910
that Mr. Jackson had received a letter
such as Exhibit No.

1531
01:56:32.110 --> 01:56:33.110
3A?

1532
01:56:32.630 --> 01:56:33.630
No, sir.

1533
01:56:51.130 --> 01:56:56.170
Did anyone at Johns-Manville ever advise
you from 1955 up until the date of your
retirement

1534
01:56:56.170 --> 01:57:02.770
that anyone at Johns-Manville had received
correspondence,

1535
01:57:02.770 --> 01:57:06.710
correspondence, the correspondence that's
identified as 3-A before you, the letter

1536
01:57:06.710 --> 01:57:07.710
from Mr. Cain

1537
01:57:07.690 --> 01:57:09.410
dated August 13, 1955?

1538
01:57:10.090 --> 01:57:11.090
No, sir.

1539
01:57:11.030 --> 01:57:12.030
Okay.

1540
01:57:11.430 --> 01:57:16.230
And up until 1980 and the asbestos
litigation, had you ever seen an original
or a

1541
01:57:16.230 --> 01:57:17.230
copy of

1542
01:57:16.790 --> 01:57:19.390
either 3-A or 4-A before you?

1543
01:57:19.950 --> 01:57:20.950
No, sir.

1544
01:57:32.270 --> 01:57:35.450
Let me take a minute now, Your Honor, and
just put the two exhibits up.

1545
01:57:35.570 --> 01:57:39.550
First put, Mr. Simon, would you put 4-A up
first?

1546
01:57:39.730 --> 01:57:41.190
I'm sorry, exhibit number 4.

1547
01:57:42.430 --> 01:57:43.430
4-A.

1548
01:57:43.430 --> 01:57:44.430
4 first.

1549
01:57:44.370 --> 01:57:45.370
Four?

1550
01:57:44.850 --> 01:57:45.850
Yes, four is the blow-up.

1551
01:57:46.250 --> 01:57:49.670
Why do we have four after we haven't had
any discussion of four?

1552
01:57:49.790 --> 01:57:51.230
It's 4A that we've been discussing.

1553
01:57:51.230 --> 01:57:53.790
Well, yes, and four is the blow-up of 4A.

1554
01:57:54.650 --> 01:57:58.130
See, so we're just going to put the blow-
up now up on the screen so the camera can
pick

1555
01:57:58.130 --> 01:57:59.130
up the blow-up.

1556
01:57:59.090 --> 01:58:04.250
I believe exhibit number four is the...

1557
01:58:05.450 --> 01:58:06.450
Identify it for me.

1558
01:58:06.550 --> 01:58:08.010
Is the tape on now?

1559
01:58:08.970 --> 01:58:09.970
Yes.

1560
01:58:09.350 --> 01:58:10.350
Yes, sir.

1561
01:58:09.710 --> 01:58:13.530
Exhibit number four is the August 1955
letter from Dr.

1562
01:58:13.710 --> 01:58:19.210
Walmer to Mr. Hugh Jackson of the
Industrial Health Program,

1563
01:58:19.390 --> 01:58:25.530
Johns-Manville Corporation, that encloses
exhibit number 3A.

1564
01:58:34.850 --> 01:58:37.690
And exhibit number four is a blow-up of
4A.

1565
01:58:48.740 --> 01:58:54.460
We're now putting up exhibit number three,
which is a blow-up of exhibit 3A,

1566
01:58:54.460 --> 01:58:58.740
And this is the August 13th, 1955 letter
from Mr.

1567
01:58:58.920 --> 01:59:04.280
Kane, the corresponding secretary, which
was enclosed with

1568
01:59:04.280 --> 01:59:08.480
Exhibit 4 when it was sent to Mr.

1569
01:59:08.640 --> 01:59:09.640
Jackson.

1570
02:00:00.350 --> 02:00:05.650
I have difficulty having difficulty
focusing it seems like the type is too
small to

1571
02:00:05.650 --> 02:00:06.650
pick up