WEBVTT

NOTE Machine transcript of the film's sound; not yet checked.

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Did you believe in April or May of 1964
that

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terminology

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that would have advised the user to avoid
inhaling any dust created in the

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use of asbestos-containing products would
have given the user more safety?

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No, sir.

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Did you also believe in April or May of
1964 that this warning label would

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advise associated crafts such as welders,
steamfitters, pipefitters, machinists,

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carpenters, and so on, of the dangers of
breathing asbestos fibers?

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00:00:59.560 --> 00:01:03.700
Yes, sir. If they were working in the area
where the material was used, they would

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read the label on the box just as the user
would read it.

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Hold it for a moment, counsel.

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So go ahead and have your take a sit.

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It doesn't do any good if it's just
sitting there.

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She wasn't for a tadpole.

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It's collecting dust.

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It is collecting dust.

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You're right.

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Who did you expect to read the warning
label that you designed

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for use

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on these especially containing insulation
products in April and May 1964?

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Who did you expect to see that warning
label?

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i would expect anyone who was working the
material

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or adjacent to where the material was
being used

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in the warehouse where the material was
being stored or in route

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by some carrier where the material might
be carried or transported

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before you designed

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the wording and the location for this
warning label had you ever been in any

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warehouses where

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where Thermobestos, pipe covering, and
block was stored

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to see what end or what sides showed.

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The front, the sides, the top, the bottom.

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Your Honor, I would submit that that would
depend on how they stacked it.

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What's the point?

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Jesus.

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That's the purport of the question.

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The answer is yes, sir.

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Any place outside Johns-Manville?

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Yes, sir. I was in another warehouse.

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Where, sir?

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I don't recall specifically.

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Some company, like a company of a user or
consumer of especially containing

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insulating products?

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You were in a warehouse of a company like
that?

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I recall being in a warehouse in Houston,
for instance.

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Prior to April or May 64?

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I think so, yes, sir.

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And did you see cartons of Thermobestos
pipe covering or black there?

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Seen all types of materials stored there,
yes, sir.

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00:03:23.020 --> 00:03:26.460
And did you see how they had the
thermobusiness pipe covering in black
stored?

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Like what sides you could see if they had
them so that the front was facing you?

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Well, I think material is stored in all
monitors,

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depending on who's storing it and where
they're storing it.

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At the time you designed the caution
labels in April and May 1964,

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was it your understanding that Johns-
Manville placed their large logo

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on the front of the box so that people
could see it?

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Well, I

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presume they, I must assume they placed it
on the front of the box so people could

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see it.

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Yes, sir.

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00:04:07.480 --> 00:04:12.740
Now, did anybody at Johns-Manville advise
you or tell you that they did not want
this

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warning label placed on the front of the
box where people could see it?

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No one told me such a thing, no, sir.

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Was there any reason that you did not
suggest or recommend the front of the box
as

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a place

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for this warning label?

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No, sir.

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uh this

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was a voluntary health warning label and

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there would not have been any necessity to
put any

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label on the boxes therefore there was no
resistance of putting this label on the

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sides of

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the boxes did you feel in april and may
1964 when you just designed the location

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for this warning

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label that people had a better chance of
seeing this warning label if it was on the

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side of the

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backs instead of the front of the backs i
did because the boxes are normally stored

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with the

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fronts and backs together and the sides
open and where did you see that in the

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warehouse and i used

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well that's the way they're stacked on
pallets where and usually in in any of the
warehouses

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that we maintain and usually those pallets
are stored

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they're not taken off the pallets

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They were stored on the pallets.

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Did you believe in April and May 1964 that
the size warning

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label you designed

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would reach more people than a larger
warning label?

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I felt the size of the warning label was
adequate in accord with the
recommendations

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of the Manufacturing Chemists Association.

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Move to Strike is now responsive.

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Yes, sir.

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00:05:53.870 --> 00:05:59.750
Did you believe in April and May 1964,
when you designed the size of this

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warning label,

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that this warning label would warn people
better than a larger warning label?

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00:06:06.850 --> 00:06:11.130
Your Honor, my objection sustains the form
of the question.

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It contains in it, you

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might say, almost a double negative.

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Repraise it, Constable.

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Did you believe in 1964, when you designed
the size of the warning label,

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that the size you selected was the best
size to warn people of the dangers

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as opposed to some larger size?

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No, sir. I felt the size was adequate.

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00:07:00.270 --> 00:07:03.670
Is it true that with respect to the...

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May we interrupt for a moment, sir?

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Do you have some estimate?

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00:07:07.930 --> 00:07:12.450
I got a couple more questions on the...

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I just asked for an interruption, Your
Honor,

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so I could find out if we have some
estimate of time.

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Oh. How many more do you have?

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How much more do you have, sir?

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You know, we've had two estimates of time
given here and...

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We've exceeded both of them.

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By substantial margin. It's pushing 8
o'clock at this point.

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Ten minutes. Ten minutes.

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Can you approximate for us how many
asbestos-containing insulation

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products this warning label went on?

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No, sir, I cannot.

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not can you approximate for us how many
asbestos containing insulation products

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did not contain a warning label that were
manufactured by Johns-Manville in

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1964 I'll rephrase the question can you
tell us approximately

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how many different

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asbestos containing products were not
earmarked for a warning label that you

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designed in April and May 64 no sir I
cannot the

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I think I testified a moment

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ago that those products which the loose
asbestos or would

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get up and give off

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loose asbestos were labeled those products
where the

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asbestos fiber was

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locked in were not labeled okay is it your
testimony that all of the

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especially containing insulating products
that were not earmarked for

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warning label by Johns-Manville in 1964
could not give off loose asbestos fibers

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in use. Can I have a question back,
please?

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I'll rephrase the question. I'll rephrase
the

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question. Is it your testimony that none

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of the asbestos-containing products,

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now let me rephrase it, double negative
again, is it your testimony that

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the asbestos-containing

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products that were not earmarked for a
caution label by Johns-Manville in 1964

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could not give off airborne asbestos
fibers in use.

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Well the labeling the

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labeling program began in 1964 and
continued on

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thereafter and the asbestos

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insulation products were the first
priority for labeling.

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Now it's possible

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possible, but that labeling may have gone
over to January 1, 1965.

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I can't, I can't

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say.

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Okay. Let's go to product lines then, Mr.
Sheckler. Thermobestos, pipe covering, and

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Thermobestos block were earmarked for
labeling sometime in 1964, correct?

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00:09:51.510 --> 00:09:56.030
I don't recall the sequence of the
labeling, Mr.

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00:09:56.110 --> 00:09:59.510
O'Reilly. I'm sorry, I just don't.

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00:10:00.050 --> 00:10:05.130
Well, the thermovest's pipe covering in
black at any time in 1964 contained

152
00:10:05.130 --> 00:10:06.690
any warning

153
00:10:06.690 --> 00:10:08.070
label that was designed by you?

154
00:10:08.250 --> 00:10:09.250
Yes, sir.

155
00:10:08.910 --> 00:10:09.910
Okay.

156
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And was 85 percent magnesia pipe covering
in black

157
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earmarked for a warning label in

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1964?

159
00:10:18.030 --> 00:10:19.030
Yes, sir.

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As I recall, it was.

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So it is your testimony that cartons of
Johns-Manville's 85 percent magnesia pipe

162
00:10:25.730 --> 00:10:30.970
covering and block at some time in 1964
contained a warning label on the carton

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itself well I'll object on foundational
grounds

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I don't think that he has

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testified that he sat and watched the
cartons go out of the yard I

166
00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:49.640
don't think he has to

167
00:10:50.260 --> 00:10:56.710
well he was in New York the cartons
weren't in New York I mean what I'm

168
00:11:00.070 --> 00:11:02.230
trying to I'll rephrase the question what
I'm trying to figure out Mr.

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Mr. Sheckler, is how many different
products or what different products that
contained

170
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asbestos manufactured by Johns-Manville
contained a warning label

171
00:11:13.050 --> 00:11:14.570
or were earmarked for a warning

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label in 1964, other than Thermobestos,
pipe covering, and Thermobestos block, I

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mean product

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categories.

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Cements.

176
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Which cements?

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I can't, there must be at least 30
different types of cements, Mr.

178
00:11:31.150 --> 00:11:32.150
O'Reilly,

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and I'm just not in a position to sit
here, I'm not a production man,

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and tell you what each type of cement is.

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I can't do it. I don't know.

182
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Do you have before you there all of the
specifications

183
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pertaining to what products were labeled
with a warning and when?

184
00:11:47.970 --> 00:11:50.310
I have here the specifications,

185
00:11:50.310 --> 00:11:55.870
but the specifications do not indicate
when the materials were labeled.

186
00:11:56.250 --> 00:12:00.050
The specifications indicate when the
cartons were reordered

187
00:12:00.050 --> 00:12:04.930
with a label imprinted and as I testified
before

188
00:12:04.930 --> 00:12:06.990
on direct examination

189
00:12:07.510 --> 00:12:13.050
the warning label was put on these cartons
with a black rubber

190
00:12:13.050 --> 00:12:14.730
ink stamp

191
00:12:14.730 --> 00:12:19.110
well that's that's what I would like to
know mr. Sheckler what different

192
00:12:19.110 --> 00:12:24.690
products of Johns-Manville had a warning
label wherein the warning label

193
00:12:24.690 --> 00:12:29.650
was actually part of the carton itself
where it was printed on there by the

194
00:12:29.650 --> 00:12:34.930
people that made the carton all of the
insulation materials

195
00:12:34.930 --> 00:12:41.290
sometime in 1964 1965 yes sir okay other

196
00:12:41.290 --> 00:12:46.530
than Thermobestos pipe covering and block
can you identify any other product that

197
00:12:46.530 --> 00:12:47.530
according to your

198
00:12:47.450 --> 00:12:53.430
recollection of events named a carton with
a

199
00:12:53.430 --> 00:12:55.510
warning label that was printed on the
carton by

200
00:12:55.510 --> 00:13:00.790
the carton manufacturer sometime in 1964
cartons for magnesium super x pipe

201
00:13:00.790 --> 00:13:02.850
insulation okay what

202
00:13:02.850 --> 00:13:03.850
What else?

203
00:13:03.470 --> 00:13:05.590
Cardins for Thermobestos block.

204
00:13:06.910 --> 00:13:07.910
All right.

205
00:13:07.530 --> 00:13:08.530
What else?

206
00:13:13.910 --> 00:13:16.490
Paper sacks for insulating cements.

207
00:13:16.770 --> 00:13:17.770
Which cements?

208
00:13:31.480 --> 00:13:36.680
301, 302, 302, 0352,

209
00:13:39.020 --> 00:13:44.540
0352, 304, 400.

210
00:14:26.600 --> 00:14:29.720
Eighty-five percent magnesia cement.

211
00:14:29.720 --> 00:14:34.990
Now, these products that you're
identifying for us here, Mr.

212
00:14:35.090 --> 00:14:36.830
Sheckler, these are products

213
00:14:36.830 --> 00:14:42.630
wherein sometime in 1964, the cartons
contained

214
00:14:42.630 --> 00:14:45.210
a printed label by the carton
manufacturer.

215
00:14:46.050 --> 00:14:47.050
Is that correct?

216
00:14:47.310 --> 00:14:51.730
64 or 65 were the dates I think we agreed
to.

217
00:14:51.790 --> 00:14:52.790
Okay.

218
00:14:53.430 --> 00:14:57.410
paper bags for 500 cement for

219
00:15:05.670 --> 00:15:11.630
bags for 450 cement paper bags

220
00:15:11.630 --> 00:15:15.750
for 319 and 678 cements paper

221
00:15:27.560 --> 00:15:28.560
bags for

222
00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:30.160
super x cement no

223
00:15:42.380 --> 00:15:47.040
it may be repetitive uh cartons for
Thermobestos pipe insulation

224
00:15:47.040 --> 00:15:48.480
insulation, cartons

225
00:15:55.780 --> 00:15:57.800
for magnesium super-X blocks.

226
00:16:06.390 --> 00:16:10.630
Now, I have recited those purchase

227
00:16:13.030 --> 00:16:16.090
specifications for cartons that I have in
front of me.

228
00:16:16.170 --> 00:16:18.470
That does not necessarily indicate

229
00:16:18.470 --> 00:16:21.830
that that's the total group of products.

230
00:16:22.190 --> 00:16:26.930
Well, are you aware of any other products
that were earmarked for a warning label to

231
00:16:26.930 --> 00:16:32.130
be printed on the carton? I know a carton
manufacturer in 1964, 1965,

232
00:16:32.390 --> 00:16:33.890
other than what

233
00:16:33.890 --> 00:16:36.930
you've identified from those spec sheets
you have before you you mean does he

234
00:16:36.930 --> 00:16:38.290
presently recall yeah

235
00:16:38.290 --> 00:16:43.590
is that your question yeah no sir i don't
recall any additional uh

236
00:16:43.590 --> 00:16:48.220
is it your testimony that there

237
00:16:48.220 --> 00:16:51.880
are additional spec sheets covering other
products that are not before you there i

238
00:16:51.880 --> 00:16:52.880
wouldn't know i

239
00:16:52.820 --> 00:16:58.760
have no idea now would it be fair to state
that there were there are in 1964 1965

240
00:16:58.760 --> 00:16:59.760
there were

241
00:16:59.740 --> 00:17:05.700
were approximately a hundred other
asbestos-containing products manufactured
by

242
00:17:05.700 --> 00:17:07.420
Johns-Manville that

243
00:17:07.420 --> 00:17:11.420
did not, were not earmarked for a warning
label to be printed on the carton by the
carton

244
00:17:11.420 --> 00:17:12.420
manufacturer.

245
00:17:13.320 --> 00:17:14.780
Asbestos-containing products?

246
00:17:15.040 --> 00:17:16.040
Yes.

247
00:17:15.460 --> 00:17:16.460
Not insulation products?

248
00:17:16.740 --> 00:17:17.740
No.

249
00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:18.340
Asbestos-containing products first.

250
00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:25.240
You're talking about products such as
floor tile and brake linings and clutch
facings?

251
00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:26.440
Sure.

252
00:17:27.340 --> 00:17:32.640
I wouldn't. No, I can't say it's fair to
say there was any number.

253
00:17:32.700 --> 00:17:35.140
I wouldn't know. There's no way I would
know.

254
00:17:35.460 --> 00:17:41.360
You mean you would not know if in 1964,
1965, Johns-Manville made 50

255
00:17:41.360 --> 00:17:43.460
other asbestos-containing products

256
00:17:43.460 --> 00:17:46.720
or 100 other asbestos-containing products
that were not earmarked for a printed

257
00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:48.440
warning label by the carton manufacturer?

258
00:17:48.760 --> 00:17:49.760
You just don't know?

259
00:17:49.700 --> 00:17:50.700
I don't know.

260
00:17:51.040 --> 00:17:55.580
They didn't label asbestos cloth or
textile cloth, did they, 64, 65?

261
00:17:56.560 --> 00:17:59.480
Asbestos textile cloth was not labeled,
no, sir.

262
00:18:08.910 --> 00:18:12.910
Now, with respect to the Insulation
Industry Health Research Program

263
00:18:12.910 --> 00:18:16.890
that you testified about and directed,
IIHRP?

264
00:18:17.250 --> 00:18:18.250
Yes, sir.

265
00:18:18.270 --> 00:18:19.930
You were not part of that program, were
you?

266
00:18:23.300 --> 00:18:24.300
Yes, sir.

267
00:18:24.120 --> 00:18:30.020
Did you work under the auspices of the
IIHRP?

268
00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:31.880
I was.

269
00:18:31.520 --> 00:18:36.140
I work for Johns-Manville with

270
00:18:36.140 --> 00:18:41.960
instructions to do certain things for Dr.

271
00:18:42.140 --> 00:18:44.040
Selikoff under the IIHRP.

272
00:18:44.360 --> 00:18:49.660
Okay, from 1969, let me rephrase that, the
IIHRP was created in approximately the

273
00:18:49.660 --> 00:18:51.300
latter part of 68, the beginning of 69?

274
00:18:51.300 --> 00:18:56.900
I think 60, mid-year, June of,

275
00:18:56.980 --> 00:19:02.900
May of 1968, I think, was the date of

276
00:19:02.900 --> 00:19:03.900
the initial meeting.

277
00:19:04.300 --> 00:19:07.860
And did you visit any of the shipyards
with Dr.

278
00:19:08.060 --> 00:19:11.480
Selikoff or any of his staff under the
auspices of the IIHRP?

279
00:19:12.380 --> 00:19:13.380
No, sir.

280
00:19:13.460 --> 00:19:14.460
Okay.

281
00:19:13.800 --> 00:19:20.540
Can you tell us what you did under the
auspices of the IIHRP?

282
00:19:23.800 --> 00:19:29.300
I initiated the list of attendees to
organize

283
00:19:29.300 --> 00:19:34.500
the IIHRP at the direction of our
President Mr.

284
00:19:34.700 --> 00:19:35.700
Burnett

285
00:19:35.140 --> 00:19:41.660
and presented that data to Dr.

286
00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:42.920
Selikoff

287
00:19:42.460 --> 00:19:48.360
and then followed up by assisting in the
organization of

288
00:19:48.360 --> 00:19:52.240
a program or an agenda for that meeting.

289
00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:56.960
Okay, any... I'm sorry. Anything beyond
that?

290
00:20:09.420 --> 00:20:15.340
I worked on a respirator improvement
program

291
00:20:15.340 --> 00:20:18.380
with Dr. Solikov,

292
00:20:19.140 --> 00:20:24.640
which was being done under the auspices of
IIHRP,

293
00:20:24.820 --> 00:20:27.340
and served on that committee.

294
00:20:27.340 --> 00:20:32.990
And for a brief time, I

295
00:20:32.990 --> 00:20:37.930
served on a committee in conjunction

296
00:20:37.930 --> 00:20:43.710
with insulation on

297
00:20:43.710 --> 00:20:44.710
board ships.

298
00:20:47.890 --> 00:20:49.270
What committee was that?

299
00:20:49.570 --> 00:20:54.910
I don't recall the specific name of it.

300
00:20:55.230 --> 00:20:57.590
It was headed by Dr. Duncan.

301
00:20:58.150 --> 00:21:00.170
What did you do as part of that committee?

302
00:21:03.870 --> 00:21:05.550
Did you visit any shipyards?

303
00:21:05.830 --> 00:21:08.030
No, I did not visit any shipyards.

304
00:21:08.030 --> 00:21:11.950
I attended several meetings, but I did not
visit any shipyards.

305
00:21:12.150 --> 00:21:15.090
Did you visit any job sites under the
auspices of the IIHRP?

306
00:21:15.410 --> 00:21:16.410
No, no, sir.

307
00:21:16.470 --> 00:21:18.690
Whether they be shipyards, construction
sites, whatever?

308
00:21:18.870 --> 00:21:22.850
Whether they be shipyards, construction
sites, construction project, refineries,

309
00:21:22.910 --> 00:21:25.790
did you visit any job sites under the
auspices of the IIHRP?

310
00:21:26.070 --> 00:21:28.510
I did not, no, sir. Mr. Reitze did that.

311
00:21:29.290 --> 00:21:32.650
And was it Mr. Reitze who was the person
that J.M.

312
00:21:32.670 --> 00:21:35.330
provided to the IIHRP for their program?

313
00:21:35.550 --> 00:21:36.550
It was, yes, sir.

314
00:21:36.510 --> 00:21:40.930
they did not provide you to the irhrp
definitely not okay now

315
00:21:42.790 --> 00:21:47.250
dr selikoff's study that you have

316
00:21:47.250 --> 00:21:52.340
before you it's exhibit d yes sir on

317
00:21:55.580 --> 00:22:00.900
page 140 of the study dr selikoff let me
rephrase it this is

318
00:22:00.900 --> 00:22:04.580
a study that you read and relied upon as
part of your duties as a manager of the

319
00:22:04.580 --> 00:22:05.580
industrial health

320
00:22:05.240 --> 00:22:08.320
program for john manville isn't it mr
sheckler yes

321
00:22:12.860 --> 00:22:14.520
sir all right on

322
00:22:24.860 --> 00:22:30.360
page 140 he states quotes

323
00:22:30.360 --> 00:22:34.920
an important area of industrial asbestos
exposure has been asbestos and so i'm

324
00:22:34.920 --> 00:22:35.920
sorry my fault

325
00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:43.180
only have about five more minutes quotes
10 20 minutes ago we'll be out of here

326
00:22:43.180 --> 00:22:44.180
in about two

327
00:22:43.580 --> 00:22:49.080
hours well council if you're not through
in another 10 minutes we'll just have to

328
00:22:49.080 --> 00:22:50.080
cut it

329
00:22:49.380 --> 00:22:53.640
right I'll be done quotes page 140 from
dr.

330
00:22:53.700 --> 00:22:56.980
Selikoff's report exhibit D entitled

331
00:22:56.980 --> 00:23:00.360
the occurrence of asbestosis among
insulation workers in the United States

332
00:23:01.240 --> 00:23:07.200
page 140 first full paragraph he states
quotes an important area of industrial

333
00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:11.960
asbestos exposure has been asbestos
insulation work the first asbestos

334
00:23:11.960 --> 00:23:17.100
factory opened in Great Britain in 1871
with the expansion of the asbestos

335
00:23:17.100 --> 00:23:21.940
textile industry beginning 10 years later,
consequent upon the availability of high-
grade

336
00:23:21.940 --> 00:23:27.280
spinning asbestos from Canada. Yet
asbestos was used for heat insulation in
1866.

337
00:23:28.020 --> 00:23:29.020
Asbestos cement

338
00:23:28.900 --> 00:23:33.000
was introduced as a boiler covering about
1870, and other asbestos insulation

339
00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:34.000
products were

340
00:23:33.760 --> 00:23:37.900
produced in the next three decades.
Commercial production of asbestos
insulation

341
00:23:37.900 --> 00:23:39.000
materials was

342
00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:42.340
recorded at least in 1874. Paragraph.

343
00:23:42.580 --> 00:23:46.240
Just as in Great Britain, early studies
concerning asbestosis

344
00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:49.700
in the United States did not mention
asbestos insulation workers.

345
00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:53.180
Neither Pancoast, P-A-N-C-O-A-S-T,

346
00:23:53.810 --> 00:23:59.360
nor Hoffman, H-O-F-F-M-A-N, characterized
the asbestos trade in which the workmen

347
00:23:59.360 --> 00:24:04.260
referred to by them or engaged. The first
official claim for compensation

348
00:24:04.260 --> 00:24:05.900
associated with asbestos in

349
00:24:05.900 --> 00:24:10.460
the U.S. was in 1927, and again the nature
of the work was not stated.

350
00:24:11.260 --> 00:24:14.140
Paragraph. Ellman in 1934

351
00:24:14.140 --> 00:24:18.880
mentioned a case of asbestosis in an
insulation worker other cases were

352
00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:23.420
subsequently reported and in the annual
report of the chief inspector of

353
00:24:23.420 --> 00:24:29.700
factories for the year 1956 lagging or
insulation work was recognized as

354
00:24:29.700 --> 00:24:34.880
hazardous close quotes you read that when
you read this back in the time that

355
00:24:34.880 --> 00:24:37.560
you read this as manager of the Industrial
Health Program for Johns

356
00:24:37.560 --> 00:24:42.980
manville yes sir he also states quotes
similarly

357
00:24:42.980 --> 00:24:48.980
Hervieux h-e-r-v-i-e-u-x in france drew

358
00:24:48.980 --> 00:24:49.980
attention in

359
00:24:49.580 --> 00:24:55.060
1962 to the dangers of such end product
use as insulation work the

360
00:25:00.630 --> 00:25:02.210
only large-scale survey of

361
00:25:02.210 --> 00:25:06.490
asbestos insulation workers was undertaken
in the u.s by fleischer et al in 1945.

362
00:25:07.130 --> 00:25:08.330
they found only

363
00:25:08.330 --> 00:25:13.090
three cases of asbestosis and concluded
that quotes asbestos pipe covering of

364
00:25:13.090 --> 00:25:18.570
naval vessels is a relatively safe
operation close quotes unfortunately 95

365
00:25:18.570 --> 00:25:22.250
percent of those examined by them had
worked for less than 10 years at the

366
00:25:22.250 --> 00:25:27.490
trade and as we shall see evaluation of
the risk of insulation workers limited

367
00:25:27.490 --> 00:25:31.230
to study of men with relatively short
durations of exposures may be

368
00:25:31.230 --> 00:25:34.390
misleading close quotes you're ready to
rely on that when you read this report

369
00:25:34.390 --> 00:25:37.910
court for the first time? Yes, sir. On

370
00:25:43.990 --> 00:25:48.270
page 141, halfway down that first
paragraph, Mr.

371
00:25:48.290 --> 00:25:52.890
Sheckler, beginning with the word, among
the 1

372
00:25:52.890 --> 00:25:58.390
,117 men. Do you see that? Your Honor,
again,

373
00:26:00.190 --> 00:26:06.170
we've now wasted about six of the ten
minutes that the court just mentioned,

374
00:26:06.330 --> 00:26:07.330
and all counsel

375
00:26:07.170 --> 00:26:12.170
has done is read certain sections of this
report and ask him if he read it and
relied

376
00:26:12.170 --> 00:26:17.070
upon it in 1964. You know, he relied on
the whole report.

377
00:26:17.390 --> 00:26:19.370
And he's just taking certain

378
00:26:19.930 --> 00:26:23.930
sections he wants to highlight, because he
doesn't know whether that report is or is

379
00:26:23.930 --> 00:26:29.230
not going to get into evidence in any
given set of circumstances, and reading it
into

380
00:26:29.230 --> 00:26:34.590
the record. And I submit that that's
improper cross-examination.

381
00:26:34.590 --> 00:26:40.570
Well, I should be one thing if he was
suggesting that the witness somehow

382
00:26:40.570 --> 00:26:44.170
had relied on a section

383
00:26:44.170 --> 00:26:49.130
of the report and not relied on another
and cross-examined him on that or
something like

384
00:26:49.130 --> 00:26:50.130
that.

385
00:26:49.470 --> 00:26:50.850
But that's not what we're doing.

386
00:26:50.930 --> 00:26:51.930
We're just reading.

387
00:26:52.310 --> 00:26:58.390
I submit that it's proper cross-
examination, but I'll be, in the interest
of time, agreeable

388
00:26:59.990 --> 00:27:04.510
to picking out certain sections and having
you stipulate that I read them in,

389
00:27:04.590 --> 00:27:05.990
and he would stipulate that he read that,

390
00:27:06.050 --> 00:27:08.790
and he relied on that when he read the
report, when he first read it.

391
00:27:09.050 --> 00:27:12.750
I would submit that it doesn't matter
whether I stipulate it's in the report

392
00:27:12.750 --> 00:27:14.630
or isn't in the report, it's still
improper.

393
00:27:15.090 --> 00:27:17.310
There's a cross-examination during the air
traffic exam.

394
00:27:17.550 --> 00:27:22.510
Well, Counsel, it is now 8.05 p.m.

395
00:27:23.410 --> 00:27:28.330
the cross-examination has continued for a
considerable period of time.

396
00:27:28.530 --> 00:27:33.960
The witness, the reporter, everyone has
been going

397
00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:36.420
continuously for a considerable period.

398
00:27:36.840 --> 00:27:41.900
In the interest of expedition, the court
is of the opinion that it should,

399
00:27:42.080 --> 00:27:47.420
the court, the referee is of the opinion
that we should

400
00:27:47.420 --> 00:27:51.500
limit the cross-examination,

401
00:27:51.500 --> 00:27:53.140
but only to this extent.

402
00:27:53.880 --> 00:27:58.200
The witness has said that he has relied on
everything in this report.

403
00:27:58.890 --> 00:28:01.060
Is that correct, Mr. Witness?

404
00:28:01.360 --> 00:28:02.360
Yes, sir.

405
00:28:02.350 --> 00:28:07.480
And that includes whatever language it is
that you wish to have

406
00:28:07.480 --> 00:28:09.920
him refer to specifically

407
00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:13.860
so that, counsel, I think you have what
you want

408
00:28:13.860 --> 00:28:19.660
and that he has whatever language you wish
to elicit or to highlight.

409
00:28:19.660 --> 00:28:25.440
mark I like he has relied upon and
therefore the court is going

410
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:26.440
to under the

411
00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:31.800
interests of time the interests of all
parties concerned and

412
00:28:31.800 --> 00:28:33.260
invoked section

413
00:28:33.260 --> 00:28:39.100
352 of the evidence code and ask you to
pass on to some other

414
00:28:39.100 --> 00:28:40.440
line of inquiry if

415
00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:42.200
you have any other counsel I

416
00:28:47.030 --> 00:28:51.670
always do what the court or referee
suggests any

417
00:29:08.500 --> 00:29:09.720
Any redirect, counsel?

418
00:29:10.020 --> 00:29:11.100
Just about two minutes.

419
00:29:11.360 --> 00:29:15.120
I don't want to lose some of the friends
I've made in this group right here.

420
00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:17.900
I've got a cross-examination, Your Honor.

421
00:29:19.020 --> 00:29:20.440
And what is your name, sir?

422
00:29:26.970 --> 00:29:28.530
I'd use a false name.

423
00:29:37.090 --> 00:29:43.000
Michael O'Connor, representing Owens
Corning

424
00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:44.000
Fiberglass Corporation.

425
00:29:45.400 --> 00:29:46.980
Mr. Sheckler, you mentioned...

426
00:29:46.980 --> 00:29:48.260
How much of a cross-examination do you
have?

427
00:29:48.260 --> 00:29:49.680
I hope about two minutes, Your Honor.

428
00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:50.680
Oh, I see.

429
00:29:50.580 --> 00:29:52.860
You mentioned earlier in the deposition,
Mr. Sheckler,

430
00:29:52.920 --> 00:29:57.540
presentations that NIMA, N-I-M-A, gave to
various NICA, N-I-C-A members.

431
00:29:57.760 --> 00:29:58.760
Do you recall that testimony?

432
00:29:59.020 --> 00:30:00.020
I do, yes, sir.

433
00:30:00.360 --> 00:30:03.280
Do you recall the other members of NIMA,
N-I-M-A,

434
00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:07.120
who assisted in these presentations in the
years 1967, 1968?

435
00:30:08.060 --> 00:30:09.060
I do, yes, sir.

436
00:30:09.140 --> 00:30:10.380
And who were those other members?

437
00:30:10.840 --> 00:30:13.520
Objection in front of the foundation, for
the record.

438
00:30:14.420 --> 00:30:15.420
I don't know this.

439
00:30:15.320 --> 00:30:21.200
Mr. John Barnhart, executive director of
NIMA.

440
00:30:22.320 --> 00:30:29.820
Mr. Harry Messler, of Royd Company,

441
00:30:41.600 --> 00:30:47.480
subsequently Anilin and Filum. I don't
know the first name.

442
00:30:47.560 --> 00:30:48.800
I can't think of the first

443
00:30:48.800 --> 00:30:55.160
name? General Anilin and Phil
Incorporation.

444
00:30:59.740 --> 00:31:05.060
All right, let's start over. Mr. Harry
Messler, safety engineer for

445
00:31:05.060 --> 00:31:06.960
Ruberoid Company, and

446
00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:11.640
then subsequently General Anilin and Phil.
Ruberoid was an

447
00:31:11.640 --> 00:31:14.680
acquisition of Ruberoid

448
00:31:14.680 --> 00:31:20.560
by General Anno and Phil. Mr. John
Viverberg, Vice President

449
00:31:20.560 --> 00:31:23.160
of Industry Relations for Owens-Corning

450
00:31:23.160 --> 00:31:26.400
Corporation. Mr.

451
00:31:35.450 --> 00:31:40.590
Leon Horowitz, H-O-R-O-W-I-T-Z, of

452
00:31:40.590 --> 00:31:43.590
CertainTeed Products Corporation.

453
00:31:46.170 --> 00:31:53.670
The President

454
00:31:53.860 --> 00:31:58.760
of the National Insulation Contractors
Association, Mr.

455
00:32:04.580 --> 00:32:08.320
Brody, B-R-O-D-Y, and myself.

456
00:32:09.080 --> 00:32:10.700
That's all my questions. Thank you, sir.

457
00:32:10.860 --> 00:32:11.860
Yes, sir.

458
00:32:13.500 --> 00:32:16.360
Mr. Sheckler, just

459
00:32:25.160 --> 00:32:26.640
a couple of questions, if I may.

460
00:32:28.280 --> 00:32:34.280
You were asked a good bit about your job
during the 52-57

461
00:32:34.280 --> 00:32:35.280
time period

462
00:32:35.240 --> 00:32:37.780
as a safety engineer at Johns-Manville.

463
00:32:37.780 --> 00:32:41.720
What was the primary focus of your job at
that period of time?

464
00:32:42.140 --> 00:32:44.620
Primary? What was that time, frankly?

465
00:32:44.760 --> 00:32:45.800
52 to 57.

466
00:32:46.080 --> 00:32:50.920
Primary focus of my job at that time was
to

467
00:32:50.920 --> 00:32:54.960
administer the

468
00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:57.940
accident prevention

469
00:32:57.940 --> 00:33:02.580
or injury prevention program at the Mando,
New Jersey location,

470
00:33:02.580 --> 00:33:08.600
primarily in the area of traumatic
injuries.

471
00:33:08.900 --> 00:33:13.960
Were you concerned at that time with the
sales of the company's products

472
00:33:13.960 --> 00:33:15.500
or the uses of the products?

473
00:33:15.740 --> 00:33:16.740
Injection compound.

474
00:33:17.740 --> 00:33:18.740
No, sir.

475
00:33:19.600 --> 00:33:21.020
It is compound.

476
00:33:22.260 --> 00:33:28.020
Were you concerned at that time with the
sales of the

477
00:33:28.020 --> 00:33:29.020
company's products?

478
00:33:28.980 --> 00:33:31.400
No, sir. I had no responsibility in that
area.

479
00:33:31.400 --> 00:33:34.140
Or the uses of the company's products by
its consumers?

480
00:33:34.440 --> 00:33:36.800
No, sir. I had no responsibility in that
area.

481
00:33:36.940 --> 00:33:39.100
What about the time period, 57 to 60?

482
00:33:39.780 --> 00:33:42.720
What was the principal focus of your job
at that time?

483
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:48.680
To administer the injury prevention
program, the industrial hygiene

484
00:33:48.680 --> 00:33:49.980
engineering program,

485
00:33:50.900 --> 00:33:55.900
the self-insured workman's compensation
program for the Manville, New Jersey
complex.

486
00:33:55.900 --> 00:34:01.680
And were you at that time concerned with
the sale of the

487
00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:02.680
company's products?

488
00:34:02.760 --> 00:34:05.140
I was not. I had no responsibility for
that.

489
00:34:05.240 --> 00:34:06.700
Or the use of the company's products?

490
00:34:06.920 --> 00:34:07.980
I had no responsibility.

491
00:34:08.420 --> 00:34:13.500
Now you were asked if during that period
of time you observed asbestos-containing

492
00:34:13.500 --> 00:34:17.940
insulation material cut and sawed.

493
00:34:18.060 --> 00:34:22.990
Do you recall that cross-examination by
Mr.

494
00:34:23.070 --> 00:34:24.070
O'Reilly?

495
00:34:23.490 --> 00:34:29.430
I don't recall him asking that question in
that time frame, no, sir.

496
00:34:29.630 --> 00:34:31.710
In either of the two time frames?

497
00:34:32.030 --> 00:34:33.850
No, sir, I don't recall that question.

498
00:34:34.730 --> 00:34:38.970
Did you, during that period of time,
observe the material being cut and sawn?

499
00:34:41.420 --> 00:34:43.440
Oh, I beg your pardon, Mr. Wilson.

500
00:34:44.320 --> 00:34:50.040
Yes, he was referring to the production
operation of

501
00:34:50.040 --> 00:34:51.920
trimming and sawing.

502
00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:57.200
Was there any indication at that time that
the workmen who were doing the trimming

503
00:34:57.200 --> 00:34:58.200
and the sewing

504
00:34:57.800 --> 00:35:02.480
were exposed to concentrations above the
threshold limit value?

505
00:35:02.680 --> 00:35:03.680
There was not.

506
00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:08.040
What was the threshold limit value at that
time?

507
00:35:08.240 --> 00:35:12.900
At that time, the threshold limit value
was 5 million particles per cubic foot of

508
00:35:12.900 --> 00:35:14.600
air for asbestos dust.

509
00:35:15.380 --> 00:35:17.060
Asbestos dust or total dust?

510
00:35:17.520 --> 00:35:18.520
Asbestos dust.

511
00:35:18.340 --> 00:35:24.060
When did you first become involved with
the sale of the company's products or

512
00:35:24.060 --> 00:35:27.780
the use of those products by its
customers?

513
00:35:27.940 --> 00:35:28.940
Injection compound.

514
00:35:29.640 --> 00:35:33.800
When did you first become involved with
the use of the company's products by its
customers?

515
00:35:34.240 --> 00:35:35.240
1964.

516
00:35:35.880 --> 00:35:38.980
And is that the time period when you were
involved in the labeling?

517
00:35:39.340 --> 00:35:41.040
That was the beginning of it, yes, sir.

518
00:35:41.240 --> 00:35:44.790
Thank you, sir.

519
00:35:44.850 --> 00:35:45.850
That's all.

520
00:35:45.130 --> 00:35:48.650
Any further inquiries that have been made
of this witness?

521
00:35:49.790 --> 00:35:51.330
Just one question, sir.

522
00:35:51.490 --> 00:35:55.530
Mr. Sheckler, between 1952 and 1960,

523
00:35:56.010 --> 00:35:58.430
who at Johns-Manville did have the
responsibility

524
00:35:59.390 --> 00:36:03.450
or the concern about the users of Johns-
Manville,

525
00:36:03.530 --> 00:36:05.110
especially containing insulation products?

526
00:36:05.710 --> 00:36:07.050
Hold on a second.

527
00:36:07.810 --> 00:36:09.810
I'll object on grounds of foundation.

528
00:36:10.630 --> 00:36:12.230
Also that it's compound.

529
00:36:12.230 --> 00:36:15.530
I'll rephrase it. Between

530
00:36:17.100 --> 00:36:23.020
1952 and 1964, before you had any

531
00:36:23.020 --> 00:36:27.880
responsibility with respect to the user or
consumer of JM's products, whose

532
00:36:27.880 --> 00:36:29.680
responsibility was it at Johns-Manville?

533
00:36:29.960 --> 00:36:33.920
It was the Johns-Manville Sales
Corporation responsibility.

534
00:36:35.660 --> 00:36:40.180
Any particular person or title that had a
responsibility with respect to the health

535
00:36:40.180 --> 00:36:41.820
or safety of the users of the products?

536
00:36:42.920 --> 00:36:46.480
Well, I don't recall handled

537
00:36:49.680 --> 00:36:54.600
installations within the framework of the
Johns-Manville

538
00:36:54.600 --> 00:36:56.180
Sales Corporation at that time.

539
00:36:56.480 --> 00:37:01.720
Is it your testimony that up until you got
involved with labeling in 1964, that
nobody

540
00:37:01.720 --> 00:37:03.400
at the Johns-Manville...

541
00:37:03.400 --> 00:37:09.300
That's argumentative already, Your Honor,
and I'm aware of that, but

542
00:37:09.300 --> 00:37:10.820
there has been

543
00:37:10.820 --> 00:37:12.700
no such testimony, and he knows it.

544
00:37:12.700 --> 00:37:18.420
Well, is it your testimony that you are
not aware of anyone at Johns-Manville
Corporation

545
00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:23.160
that had any responsibility with respect
to the users of J.M.'s products

546
00:37:23.160 --> 00:37:26.620
until you got involved with labeling in
April or May of 1964?

547
00:37:27.120 --> 00:37:29.140
Absolutely not. That's not my testimony.

548
00:37:29.560 --> 00:37:31.920
Who then had the responsibility at J-M
Corporation?

549
00:37:32.420 --> 00:37:33.740
Aston answered, Your Honor.

550
00:37:33.880 --> 00:37:36.700
He told me J-M Sales Corporation.

551
00:37:36.900 --> 00:37:39.340
That's a different corporation than Johns-
Manville Corporation, isn't it?

552
00:37:39.400 --> 00:37:41.660
Johns-Manville Corporation is a parent
corporation.

553
00:37:41.660 --> 00:37:46.660
and this subsidiary had the responsibility
for the user of the product yes sir did

554
00:37:46.660 --> 00:37:47.660
anybody at

555
00:37:47.220 --> 00:37:51.720
the parent corporation where you worked at
corporate headquarters in 1960 anybody
there

556
00:37:51.720 --> 00:37:56.840
had that responsibility mr. Quinton
Burnett president of the corporation okie-
doke

557
00:38:16.300 --> 00:38:19.520
Well, this isn't a deposition, as such.